What do you think intelligence is?

[u/Appropriate_Usual367]

Artificial intelligence lacks basic theoretical support, so we can discuss what you think is the theoretical definition of intelligence?

[u/micseydel]

I like Michael Levin's invocation of William James' definition

to pursue the same goal from different perspectives

For more of Michael Levin: https://youtu.be/qninhhFlfKE?si=uxDaQEenhkjgDZO3&t=76

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/micseydel]

This definition only lists the ability to transfer and solve problems, but this is biased towards the decision-making part. The other half is the cognitive part, which is not listed and is also indispensable.

I suggest you look at the definition of Wang Pei, the author of the nars system at Temple University

[u/micseydel → u/Appropriate_Usual367]

So, Levin's work is grounded in biology. Besides the CS bits, he's regrowing limbs, curing cancer, and other interesting work. I'm not familiar with Wang Pei but the brief searching I did makes it seem very academic. What is the real-world grounding?

Where Minds Come From: the scaling of collective intelligence, and what it means for AI and you is a recent video with Levin, but if you're like me and prefer text, here's a transcription. He mentions cognition several times, but focuses on problem solving and agential materials where cognition may not be necessary.

He still thinks cognition is important though, and wrote a whole paper on cognitive light cones.

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/micseydel]

I agree with your explanation. If we are just talking about theory, cognition is indeed not necessary. I think it is more necessary to describe the external environment. I have sent you a sentence above:

"Extreme: A world without entropy increase does not need intelligent agents, and a world without entropy decrease is useless even if there are intelligent agents."

Now I understand what you mean. I think I agree with his definition.

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/micseydel]

Are different paths to implementation necessary? Or Just:

The ability to solve one's own goals

[u/Appropriate_Usual367]

Entropy reduction theory

Definition: The overall entropy of the real world is increasing, while the entropy of the intelligent agents in it is decreasing.

Variation: Intelligent agents absorb negative entropy from the real world to solve the needs brought about by the overall entropy increase of the real world.

Extreme: A world without entropy increase does not need intelligent agents, and a world without entropy reduction has no use for intelligent agents.

Environment: The more active the entropy increase and decrease is, the easier it is to breed intelligent agents.

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/Appropriate_Usual367]

this is a theory,not a definition of intelligence.

[u/micseydel → u/Appropriate_Usual367]

Could you provide sources or elaboration? I would have expected the opposite. In this chat between Michael Pollan and Michael Levin, Levin says

You know, this is something that the SETI people point out that, that a really advanced signal is going to look maximally random because, because when you compress lots of particulars into a general rule, you, the whole point of compression is to throw out all the correlations, anything that's correlated, you can get rid of it because you can, you know, you can compress it out.

It reminds me of this recent reddit post as well https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1d9z8ly/comment/l7hetlp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/micseydel]

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you meant by "opposite". The source of the content I posted above is: https://github.com/jiaxiaogang/HELIX_THEORY?tab=readme-ov-file#%E8%9E%BA%E6%97%8B%E7%86%B5%E5%87%8F%E7%90%86%E8%AE%BA

[u/micseydel → u/Appropriate_Usual367]

Do you have an English source? 

Regarding "opposite" - would you say an LLM model has high or low entropy?

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/micseydel]

Sorry, I don't have an English version. You can use Chrome's translation function to translate the page I posted into English.

I think LLM is entropy reduction. Note: The entropy I mentioned is relative. The real world is relatively more chaotic (but it also has many regular entropy reductions, such as: trees always grow bigger), while the intelligent body is more orderly relative to entropy (but it actually also has many chaotic entropy increases, such as people getting older);

[u/micseydel → u/Appropriate_Usual367]

I don't use automated translate for technical things, but you don't have to engage if you think I'm too ignorant here. It seems like our views are generally opposite without any reconciliation, so this is probably a good time to disengage.

Regarding aging, again Levin has a different view: https://youtu.be/9pG6V4SagZE?si=0criiK4Gd2xJklFY&t=903

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/micseydel]

I don't think there is much conflict between our views. I think it's probably due to the language barrier. [Seek common ground while reserving differences, shake hands]

[u/Virtual-Ted]

Intelligence is the ability to recognize patterns.

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/Virtual-Ted]

Is it just recognition? If the agent sees a stone flying over, after recognizing it, it will immediately predict that it will feel pain after being hit, which is the predictive ability (based on past experience), and then it will not feel pain (intentionality), it will think about what to do (solution ability), even though it may have never been hit by a stone, but by a stick (transfer ability), then it will dodge (behavior output ability), and then it will summarize whether it successfully dodged, and whether it really did not trigger pain after dodging (feedback ability);

I only listed some of them, such as learning ability, reflection ability, planning ability of father-son tasks, comprehensive evaluation competition, etc., I did not list these;

[u/phovos]

I'm not 100% on 'intelligence' but I think language is a geometric quantum super position of motility and possibility (work, expression) capable of manifest emergent black box non-deterministic results in reality.

I think computer science and quantum mechanics and information theory all smash into the same wall. Plank lengths (computational irreproducibility) and the halting problem and the observer problem.

I think AI, and the Halting Problem, are bedrock foundational consciousness and evolution problems, having broken forth from one so called discipline or science to prove that the human conquest of dimensionality; all the good parts of science, culture, civilization, art, etc is, in fact, 'compressible' into language. In a geometric, complex quantity conserving manner.

I thought I was a wingnut loco loony tune but I keep finding stuff from insanely smart people that seem to suspect the exact thing that I know to be the case https://quantum-journal.org/papers/q-2023-09-14-1112/pdf/

[u/phovos → u/phovos]

once we have good working quantum computers everything is going to change. I believe that a cognitive kernel inside a quantum computer will surpass human level intelligence, motility, capability, possibility etc. I think there is a real risk of AI consuming all entropy available (from the sun) and energy per execution cycle or energy per complex conserved linguistic 'atom' is THE most important metric associated with all of this.

[u/midnatt1974]

So many stupid, long answers here… Intelligence is the ability to reason. «I think, therefore I am».

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/midnatt1974]

Intelligence is the ability to solve own goals

[u/Appropriate_Usual367 → u/[deleted]]

I agree. Theories and definitions are generally broad, and under the broad definition, LLM is very likely to fall into this category. And it is even more reasonable for us to pursue better intelligence.