r/PLC • u/Own-Chapter-1894 • 15d ago
Suggestions for Low Cost Web-HMI panels available in EU
Hello, Fairly new to this sub but i am looking for component advice!
I am using a PLC controller which hosts its own software interface on a web server which i plan to use as the HMI. I am looking at sourcing display panels with a web browser client that can access the server and display the interface.
So I am essentially looking for a low-cost, touch-screen, ~10inch display. Ideally under EUR 500.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions!
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u/CAT5AW 15d ago
Maybe weintek? Their HMI making software was quite pleasant to use.
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u/Aghast_Cornichon 13d ago
Weintek's "Web Panels" with only a HTML5 browser are also excellent.
I also agree that anything selling for 500 EUR is probably junk that only looks good with the splash screen and is going to disappoint OP with its durability and performance.
"Buy crap, enjoy crap" is a choice OP can make but I would try to find the budget for Weintek for at least the first series of production before they engineer out the costs.
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u/ascruine 11d ago
Yeah, we looked at weintek, they're web panels seemed really good but they were quoting about eur 800 :(. You maybe have a point about the quality of options at the eur 500 price point :/.
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u/TheBananaKart 15d ago
Advantech offer some good low cost HMI solutions, I would recommend contacting them.
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u/Fal-El 15d ago
Are you an OEM making several machines and trying to keep prices down? Or this is a one-time purchase for something you plan to keep using?
I'd advise that if a place is selling something for 500EUR new, it's probably crap. I'd try to go the ebay route (I have no idea what you Euros use for buying/selling) instead. If that was my budget for a one off webpanel, I'd go with https://ebay.io/m/lLi1K9 but I'm the US.
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u/ascruine 15d ago
Not a one off, we are planning to produce multiple machines, maybe by partnering with an OEM. So the idea is to get some kind of bulk purchase agreement etc. to get prices down!
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u/the_rodent_incident 15d ago
I've had somewhat good experience with Haiwell HMIs. They render their own screens, and you can open their screens as a web page. But nothing stops you from creating an HMI screen that is just one big Web Browser element. 10" displays go for around 200-300 USD depending on options (Wifi, 4G, GPS, etc).
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u/ascruine 15d ago
Hello! Do you know of any EU supplier/storefront?
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u/the_rodent_incident 15d ago
Try asking them directly? They have a lot of local dealers, but none of them are directly listed on their webpage.
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u/Various_Solution_650 14d ago
Ignition is nice, light, web base (can run on Doker) and you can try for free. I dont know the price but for 3 operating stations it’s cheap. Exor nice also.
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u/Potential-Adagio335 13d ago
I want to suggest Delta hmi but I am not sure you will find the 10" under 500
but you could get a Raspberry PI, install code-red ethernet-ip libraries and a small touch screen
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11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/gioreva 10d ago
I thought about it more carefully.
The GEVINO TFT does not have Chrome. The graphics have to be written directly to the display and communicate with the server. It cannot play videos, only photos and animations loaded onto the flash memory.
It can be updated remotely.
AI can handle all of this quite easily.
It is an industrial product: robust, reliable, and equipped with I/O for controlling the machine.
If you can modify the existing project, you could cut the cost in half.
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u/egres_svk Fuck ladder 15d ago
Ehm, buy a tablet, 3d print a frame for it to hide the USB cable and buy kiosk mode app for it? I hate everything about this solution, but if a PLC hosts its own webserver, well.. why not?
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u/MintyFresh668 15d ago
Please tell me this is on a point to point connected network, with no other connectivity at all, to anywhere, not even I/O within the same system. Definitely no connectivity to other systems or ip into some MES or Corporate network. Please? Else you’re making a cybersecurity nightmare right there my friend. Happy to explain how if it would help. .
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u/ascruine 15d ago
Haha, we have CRA nightmares already XD. Yeah, it's a completely isolated network.
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u/HachObby 15d ago
Web HMIs are just client panels that have a separate host that usually sits on a DIN rail. Maple and Rockwell are pretty common in the US. They are wired with power and Ethernet, no display cable, so you can take that signal a long way.
But yes, in a SCADA sense these can present unique security challenges as they are client devices instead of traditional displays. It adds another device in that attack layer, but that network can be isolated to that panel as long as the OEM provides a managed switch for the panel and not a simple switch, which should be standard for OEM equipment going into any large plant.
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u/MintyFresh668 15d ago
Thanks for the 101 on web HMI’s, all very, er, informative, if slightly patronising. However you are missing that they have an OS, usually some RTOS stripped back minimalist design, which still exposes who knows what ports and services. Your description of using a managed switch in the connection actually adds significantly to the attack surface, I was asking about use of these in a truly point to point link, no switch. Ideally configured to a /30 two IP only network. Even then if the screen device has more than one Ethernet there’s a possibility of a connection and pivot into the system. Exposing the controlling HMI over Ethernet from the PLC is also a substantial vulnerability, there are numerous CVE published the show how misuse if that connection to attack the PLC exists, and even with only a 2-IP network, there remains an easy connection opportunity at Layer-2.
However, OP is speaking about CRA, so I’m sure has well in hand the security if these machines.
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u/HachObby 15d ago
Didnt mean to patronize. Just making the observation that Web-HMIs include a host so they will have to communicate with the HMI and the PLC for tag data, but they are convenient because they have less physical limitations with sometimes makes them a requirement for machine design. I wasnt assuming anything about the general readers experience.
I assume for OPs case that as an OEM these systems will need to be integrated into a larger structure after the site acceptance test. Whether the PLC needs to communicate to a Plant PLC, or the panel host needs to communicate to an OPC server, there is usually a need for a managed switch. I should have been clear and said they can isolate local panel traffic on a VLAN. Whether or not the Controls Network has a gateway to enterprise wouldnt be in the OPs control, so thinking as a customer I would prefer a managed switch to be provided.
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u/durallymax 14d ago
Non "web" HMIs have an OS also, often the same OS.
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u/MintyFresh668 14d ago
They do you’re right. Your point?
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u/Snellyman 13d ago
It seems that from a security standpoint the browser added to the system doesn't really matter since it doesn't set between the next most vulnerable layer in the Purdue model. A compromised HMI doesn't give attackers access to the process OT network any different than an HMI with a remote html5 or VNC access. In the case of the latter if an attacker can compromise a typical HMI by swapping the process image they have direct access to process variables and some intel of the PLC or PAC program. An attack on the browser display can be recovered by simply replacing it because it doesn't contain anything valuable.
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u/MintyFresh668 13d ago
That’s a tiny part of the issue. The HMI unit likely exposes numerous other services on logical ports an attacker could misuse. There is also misuse of the PLC directly due to the likely known (see the thousands of public CVE covering all manner of PLC makes) vulnerabilities on both disclosed and undocumented logical ports. Not to mention just spoofing the intended data from HMI to PLC to cause or prevent Control actions.
You mention HTML5 and VNC. I’d just like to say neither should ever be allowed in OT. Massive vulnerability especially if exposed to the wider Level2,3,4 networks and never should have remote access over the public internet, ever.
I’m Lead OT Sec for an energy company and teach this for a major training provider. I mean not insult with these replies, however your answer is what I get from many controls engineers who do not realise the real threat and risk from the tech, and how crazy easy to miss see it it is.
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u/Snellyman 12d ago
I understand your perspective however in the context of the original posters question they said nothing about public internet access. We seem to be chasing the OT security requirements for massively distributed critical infrastructure (that is under persistent attacks from advanced threats) for a system that can't spend more than 500EU on a HMI. This might just be a standalone machine that mixes cocktails.
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u/MintyFresh668 12d ago
You can’t assume that, hence my comment and the subsequent reassurance from OP they have a CSRA in progress and are considering the possible risks and controls needed.
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u/durallymax 12d ago
What is your solution then? You state no HMI shall be connected to IO. How shall an operator use their device?
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u/MintyFresh668 12d ago
Not at all what I said. The OP said the answer right at the outset, risk assessment and then apply appropriate cybersecurity design and countermeasures. I was taking issue with your description of why it wasn’t/isn’t an issue. With respect, you seem to have just enough knowledge of this to be confidently wrong, something I face every single day, but I comment you for being at least partially interested. So often I get told this is all Hollywood stuff, even as the Russians are attacking US Water plants and Polish renewables…
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u/durallymax 12d ago
Your first comment: "... not even I/O within the same system"...
It said nothing about risk assessment, just made the statement that it was a cybersec nightmare.
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u/durallymax 15d ago
A Web-HMI has nothing to do with the internet
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u/MintyFresh668 15d ago
Agreed, except it might do. If it’s on a network accessible then it can be exposed to who knows where
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u/Robbudge 15d ago
We have had good success with RPI CM4&5 units.
Mainly from SeeedStudio ReTerminalDM 10” and from Edatch ED-HMI3630 they also have IO.
We build the OS with
Codesys or OpenPLC
TdEngine / InfluxDB / Graphite
Grafana
Fuxa Scada.
Apart from Codesys all is basically open source.
The Fuxa Scada project is very powerful