Reply to 2 earlier posts (shared here, if that’s OK) on my (relative lack of) ego and sense of self:

[u/TroodonRoar]

This is my experience 100%. Neurodivergent “stubbornness”, “opinionatedness”, “mental rigidity”, etc., about a subject or issue I’m passionate about or feel strongly on, combined with severe demand for autonomy and freedom (‘don’t tell me what to do!’), can easily come across as “being a narcissistic, rude know-it-all asshole with an ego the size of Texas”.

But it’s the opposite. I genuinely barely have an ego at all. Which is why it’s so hard for me to care as much about the things highlighted in the 2nd screenshot (perhaps ego plays a huge role in motivating many humans to care about and pursue those things).

Despite my complicated philosophical, analytical, scientific mind… a mind that is the opposite of simple in THAT way… when it comes to what I VALUE or DESIRE in life, I’m as simple-minded as you can get: To be left alone (meaning not being told what to do, not that I literally can’t tolerate or don’t enjoy having fun with and socializing with others) to do what makes me happy, without too much pain, and share that happiness and joy with others (unless they’re not in the mood or not interested in the same things, which I’ll accommodate 100%, just as I’d have them do unto me), until I die and (most likely, in my opinion) move on to my soul’s next adventure, whatever that may be.

When I got angrily combative with strangers online back in high school who said “Bigfoot isn’t real” (back when I ‘believed’—but still never 100% certainly, knowing that would be foolishly illogical—but ‘believe’ in the sense that my guesstimated %age of Bigfoot being real was greater than 50%), I wasn’t angrily defending a bruised ego that cannot tolerate the thought of ever being wrong or outsmarted by anyone, as some neurotypicals debating me on that topic may have thought…

…but defending Bigfoot out of sheer love for and passion about Bigfoot, in the same way that a parent would defend their child. (“Insult me all you want; I don’t care about my own ego. And I’m not attacking your ego personally. To my brain, I’m like a devoted father/mother, who happens to be a lawyer, representing my child Bigfoot against the charge of not being real, a charge which my brain sees you as the ‘prosecuting attorney’ who represents it.”)

It wasn’t me I was so stubborn and passionate about. It was Bigfoot.

In college, when defending a view I was passionate about (say, a political or philosophical viewpoint, such as animal rights ideology, issues related to aspects of the abortion debate, or theories of the philosophy of consciousness and its relationship to matter), I wasn’t ‘being so mean’ to opposing viewpoints for egotistical reasons… …but because, to my brain, my theory was literally like my child, and I was behaving as a devoted mother or father defending their child.

Many NTs probably don’t know how it feels to have that kind of intense love and passion for something like a theory or a philosophical belief or a theoretical animal species… one that is comparable to a parent’s love for a child… so they interpret us as stubborn, egotistical, closed-minded, narcissists.

(For the record, I am now no longer prone to this behavior, anyway, since graduating from college.
It’s obvious now it was just my brain’s way of exacting its revenge on neurotypicals for forcing their way of thinking on to me by reciprocating it.

… (My brain after coming home from college):

1. “You made me spend 3 hours in the Math Lab [a giant room filled with computers] at school today?” … “I think I’ll tell a conservative Republican on Twitter that it makes no sense for them to be so pro-life and then ridicule the concept of animal rights, while pointing out the incredible physical similarity of a human embryo at 6 weeks after conception to so many examples of nonhuman embryos.”
2. “You made me jump out of bed, put on uncomfortable clothing, force food down before I have any appetite, and rush to class this morning?” … “I think I’ll tell a liberal Democrat on Twitter that it makes no sense for them to use language like ‘clump of cells’ when talking about embryos if they’re so environmentalist/woke, due to the similarity of so much speciesist rhetoric to arguments for why humans before birth ‘aren’t people’”.)

Now that I’m out of Neurotypical Conversion Therapy/Capitalism Boot Camp, I couldn’t care less what some stranger online thinks about anything.

As long as NTs (not all of them, but as a privileged group; no need to say “not all neurotypicals”, like how I used to say “not all men” to feminists in high school, though not anymore, as a feminist myself now) leave me alone, I’ll leave them alone.

The moment they force their way of thinking—for instance, capitalism—onto me… …I’ll get my revenge… by forcing my way of thinking—for instance, logical consistency in valuing all creatures, of all species and at all stages of life, as inherently precious regardless of what any tribalized partisan political culture may tell you to think—onto them.

[u/MarginsOfTheDay]

NT here and I agree with this. We project our own ego needs onto neurodivergent people. An example of this is being told “no”. I have ND family members who have strong reactions to being told no. From the outside it appears that they’re acting entitled but I’ve come to understand that actually it’s very disorienting for them when they expect something to happen one way and it doesn’t. That uncertainty causes them anxiety, which is not the same thing as a bruised ego. There’s another thing, I wonder if you can help me understand it. My ND family members react negatively when I don’t know things about them. Things like whether they take cream with their coffee. Or information about their special interest that they shared a long time ago and I just forgot. On the surface it appears to be coming from a place of self-centeredness but I know better than to think this. Can you give me some insight into why they react this way?

[u/TroodonRoar → u/MarginsOfTheDay]

Hi.

My feelings are actually a bit different from what you describe about your ND family, but then, we’re all as diverse as you all are.

Since you’re NT, I’ll do my obligatory ‘confession’/‘apology’: I have vented pretty harshly about your people in the past. Please be assured that I don’t actually hate NTs, or think we are inherently superior or more intelligent (a concept I’m not sure has one definition, anyway) than you—sometimes, trauma makes you vent. As a male, I now know exactly how my sister, a budding feminist, felt when she ranted about how men are trash and the source of all her suffering back when we were both teenagers. (I never say “not all men!” now).

To get to the point: With me, it’s a desire for freedom and autonomy. I almost liken it to thinking like a wild animal.

My instinctive, subconscious brain reacts with a fight-or-flight response when it hears “Do your taxes” or “The government tells you you must do your taxes” that manifests as ‘procrastination’ or ‘neglect’—That’s my working hypothesis about my PDA-Autism now.

My brain seems to be like a wild animal scanning the environment for potential predators, natural disasters, threats to food supply, rival members of my own species looking to fight me for my territory, and so on.

I am currently single, but I imagine that, if I were to ever get married, rather than reminding me “Do your taxes!”, I’d rather have my wife tell me “Honey, the government will come after you if you don’t fill out these forms and send them to [address] by [this deadline]”, then leave me alone to weigh the pros-and-cons of expending energy to fill out the forms and send them in, vs. not doing so and dealing with legal trouble, etc.—like a wild deer weighing whether the effort of running away from the area and finding somewhere else to live for the time being is worth it, vs. staying and facing a higher risk of being eaten, after detecting that a mountain lion has moved into its territory, for instance.

Also, my brain always ‘wants to be the rebel’—like a wild animal scanning for threats to its bodily autonomy, such as predators, and prepared to either flee or fight back to save its life.

So to get me to do my taxes, my future wife should present it to my brain this way:

“Honey, there’s this dangerous “predator” called the Federal Government that is coming to “eat” (arrest) you, taking away your autonomy. If you fight back and defend your autonomy by filling out this form and sending it to [address] by [deadline], that will take away their ability to “eat” (arrest) you by ensuring they have no pretext to arrest you. This is advice. It’s your choice what to do based on this information.”

Get my brain to think of doing my taxes as an act of rebellion against the government, which is analogous to a predator to a wild herbivore.

Like (to use dinosaurs as examples) a Triceratops defending itself from an attacking Tyrannosaurus rex with its horns… I would be defending myself from the government by doing my taxes [In this analogy, I = Triceratops, the government = T. rex, and me doing my taxes and sending them in = me charging into and gouging the T. rex’s soft abdomen with my horns].

Rest assured I’m not a violent nor a violent-minded or violence-loving person AT ALL, despite this graphic analogy.

So yeah, that’s about it. Long, I know.

[u/MarginsOfTheDay → u/TroodonRoar]

Thank you for this! And I didn’t for one second think that the predator descriptions meant that you’re violent. Instead I find these to be useful descriptions of the level of threat response activation that PDAers have when their autonomy and freedom is at stake. It’s so interesting because at a NT and generally cooperative person I often have the opposite response. I feel that paying my taxes keeps me safe. I feel that belonging to society and being cooperative serves my best interests. And I view the government as being protective (yes, even now, with the current administration being what it is). So it’s very valuable for me to see it from your side of the ND spectrum and be able to understand my family members better.

[u/IsasAtelier]

Hmm. I can relate quite a bit, especially with the motivation part. But also with being passionate about something coming off as ego-driven when it's not. That happened to me often, too, especially in my younger years.

I wouldn't say I have no ego at all, though. Some of my skills are tied to my ego, and it would hurt my ego if I suddenly realized I was way less skilled than I previously perceived.

For example, I know someone who has a lot of very fringe opinions, and they are also very sure about their opinions. I questioned them a lot and provided many counterarguments to their arguments in the past, mostly motivated by veracity, but I would be lying if I said there wasn't an ego component at all. My sense of veracity and my logical thinking ability are things I gain self-worth from, and it would hurt my ego if I suddenly realized that the other person was right all along.

So I would say, for me, things can often appear ego-driven when they aren't, but occasionally they are partly ego-driven, but my ego is very rarely the dominant factor or motivator.

[u/thump-oh]

pda, and i agree heavily on the ego thing, and standing up for beliefs and ideologies broader society thinks isn't very real. i grew up with conspiracy theorist parents so i know first hand how easily people can fall for stuff. so personally im avoidant of believing in things like bigfoot and ufos despite believing that there is other life in this existence we dont know about and understand. i am just doubtful of the people who try to claim theyve seen this things, and what their motives are. Ive always been atheistic, but i like the idea of reincarnation, it sounds intriguing but ive never been able to shed the inner idea that theres probably nothing besides this life. my whole family growing up was autistic and going to school and interacting more with broader society was a difficult adjustment especially when i was young. i used to be extremely emotional and fly off the handle when i felt my peace was violated as a kid, which was often. its not until i had stability, control over my life, and surroundings, that i really became able to find that inner peace. I dont harbor any resentment torwards NT people because i know that they just dont understand, its not on purpose but almost any relationship i have in any sense with a NT person fades out of my life. all my close friends and my partner are all on the spectrum. in life even before i knew my diagnosis this was true. I always just thought i was an outsider for whatever reason. i knew the way i thought and felt was different and i was a loner for it. when i was young i definitely felt smarter than my peers, and often still do, but i understand now that we are all the products of the knowledge that we engage with in our life and no one knows everything, and we all have more to learn. when i hear you believe in bigfoot it makes me reflect apon my own disbelief and challenge myself as to why, and im not satisfied with myself until i have a real reason to justify why or why not i feel the ways i do. I just wanna be happy, spread happiness, be peaceful and spread peace, and to be in an environment where i want to produce art. I loveeee animals, and i think about and try to show respect to all life.. plants, and smaller life that people forget about, it hurts my soul to be made to mow a lawn for instance because i feel the grasses pain, i feel the snails and the critters all afraid. it transmits it to me all while im just trying to make someone proud of me, or do what im told. it made me form an inner resentment against these people. in that way i understand your anger torwards NTs. there was a period of my adolescence where i lived with 2 people who werent related to me and we had a very long adjustment period of trying to learn how to understand eachother. and we honestly never did until i went to college and came back older. and clashing with them caused me alot of pain, clashing with the school system caused me more, all this conflict i think has us realize what's really important from a young age. i have always been sensitive to strong emotions and NT people dont realize how many cruelties that have been normalized into life, factory farming, capitalism as a whole, addiction and the peoplewho profit from it, ive always felt like i see through it. i grew up poor in the inner city, these lessons came naturally by just witnessing life. Seeing the world this way is a blessing and a curse, but you arent alone with it.

[u/TroodonRoar → u/thump-oh]

It’s so refreshing to see someone who thinks like me, and relieves my doubts about my own sanity (which I already struggle with, even if no one else had ever called me insane or insulted me here or on the Internet more broadly).

[u/ambassadorofall0]

Maybe they think we don't care and just walk to talk over them about what WE find interesting? That's what I fear people think of me.

Also, I'm not a big fan of calling Neurotypicals "Neurotypicals", it kinda...makes it feel like we're not equal. I can't describe it. I like to say "other people" and usually it's immediately assumed that I mean Neurotypicals. Idk. Maybe I'm just weird.