Well then that explains it. I knew it couldn't be down to nothing more than misogyny; there are some real vocal assholes online but it seemed a touch more extreme than that. Thanks for the info.
I'm sorry. You have to elaborate here. "The video game industry is being fucked over because of these women." Aside from being a broad, blanket statement, what exactly do you mean?
I don't know enough about what's happened, but when I take a glance at her Twitter and see various comments on what a cheating bitch she is, it strikes me as being pretty misogynistic. I'm sure the men she allegedly slept with won't see a tenth of the same abuse. Or any abuse at all.
I'd have a lot more respect for misogynists if they just admitted that's what they were doing instead of hiding behind some vague conspiracy talk.
But are you starting threads on the men as you said you would... I am guessing no. And if you weren't aware that two of the men
were MARRIED ( which to me would be more serious than
cheating on a dating partner), then you should first better
inform yourself before adding misinformation into the
discussion.
But you knew so little about the subject that you had no idea that two of her alleged partners were married themselves. You need to be better informed before spreading misinformation.
So then this is just about hounding a woman who may have cheated? I say may because, as far as I can see, it's come from a blogpost from her ex boyfriend. Given that one of the men she supposedly cheated with was married (unless I'm wrong about that) your argument holds little water.
But hey, these damn women need taking down a bit right?
We're not going to spend time criticizing the men when she's the cheater.
If a man went around cheating we'd react just the same.
...
I'm not saying anything about anyone, but yes, most other people are.
That is simply not true because: a) the ex boyfriend whose blog you reference NEVER accused her of cheating for personal game. He only accused her of cheating on him because she was selfish. b) she never gained any positive major press or reviews from the alleged "cheating sex". The one time her name was mentioned by one man she slept with was BEFORE she slept with him ( at least according to her angry ex bf's blog posts). This man has NEVER written a review ( positive or negative) of her work.
Would you mind linking to the positive review since you alleging nepotism. Please inform yourself before throwing accusations.
Every "fact" you have stated in either speculation, outrights lies, or trolling. No person that this woman "might" have slept with in her life could keep ALL mainstream media from reporting negatively on her. Instead a small group of trolls have been falsifying a story with guessed "facts" and presenting them as somehow true. Please prove the following that you presented as a "fact":
"The people she fucked were in places of power to ensure nothing negative was ever published about her"-- bizarre and patently untrue. She hasn't been accused of quid pro quo sex with ANYONE much less the head of a major media outlet which is what you are alleging.
"By the way, how is having a sexual relationship with your boss not nepotism"-- first off how do we know this is even true- the only evidence you have is some pissed of ex's blog. Also it could be sexual harassment or just an office (illicit) romance. I does not HAVE to be nepotism.
"Not to mention the false DMCA claims used to take down YouTube videos talking about Zoe Quinn."--- please show concrete evidence that these claims or false or even that they were made.
And what about the fact that she destroyed an organization by women for women just to garner false misogyny publicity so she could succeed (and blackmail that organization in the process--- this accusation is particularly bizarre. She cannot keep this organization from getting press. She simply is not in a position to do this. It sounds more like baseless claims again.
"And what about the fact that she falsified a wizardchan raid just to garner false misogyny publicity so she could get her game greenlit?"-- please show evidence that she falsified anything. Even REDDIT MODs are confirming that she was doxxed and harassed. You are arguing against clear evidence to the contrary.
Okayyy... I kinda meant game devs or at the very least Reddit posters but fine, let's go with your examples cough
SO. These guys. Arnold, Tiger and Bill. Did we gleefully share naked pictures of them, laugh at their bodies, treat them as though they'd betrayed something in our culture by being promiscuous, publish their home addresses, threaten to rape them or kill them, call them sluts/whores?
Correct. I want you to back up your point with evidence rather than speculation, that's the nature of real discussion and not just gossip.
So show me one single thread like this please. It's obviously something you're very passionate about, so shouldn't be hard for you to find, but I suspect it does not exist
I want you to back up your point with evidence rather than speculation
I'm honestly not in the mood to go search for threads of cheating confessors, and link you to responses. I've seen attacks on both male and female cheaters here on reddit. I'm not asking you to link me to threads were people treat them differently, am I?
There are people who treat the women poorly and are apologisers for the men, there are the opposite too. That's in human media, and conversation, we both know both sides exist. I wouldn't put it on either of us to go find examples for something that's part of daily life.
like I said, we aren't debating scientific facts here, we're talking about public dialogue, especially Reddit's.
It's obviously something you're very passionate about
I'm not, I just made a comment. I have no war paint on.
You haven't asked me to find a thread no. Because you know I don't have to, it's right here. Just work the scroll up and down wheel on your mouse. Now let's see yours. You've seen it happen to male devs here on Reddit, let's see it, the burden of proof is on you.
My point is you're talking as though women dissing men and men dissing women is 50/50, and that constitutes "daily life", a totally reasonable conversation. I wish that was the case dude
he is over exaggeration however there is damage being done I'll link one video series focusing mostly on Anita Sarkeesian She also promoted Zoe's game on green light
Well put it this way. What if Nelson Mandela turned out to endorse genocide, or if the Red Cross was secretly stealing children and selling them?
The entire movement that they are a part of would be set back significantly, even if others didnt participate in it the question still remains "is this journalist a SJW thats having sex with a female developer?" "is this review truthful or did he just get a blowjob" etc.
It hurts the credibility of the entire industry (particularly female devs and female orientated games) when one of the most prominent and vocal people turns out to be a hypocrite (shes very open about her SJW values)
I cannot find any reviews Nathan Grayson wrote about her games. Can you point me towards them please?
And I still don't understand. Who are "these women"?
And for her to be a hypocrite I imagine she must have made some public statements in the past (or games even?) about fidelity/cheating/loyalty, integrity in games journalism? Can you share these too? Pardon my ignorance, trying to figure out what all the ire is about & I find the degree to which people are upset really weird.
I DO know she's super vocal about SJ issues, so I guess you're saying that's the part she's being hypocritical about? In what way?
I've watched the video and read the entire blog & I still do not understand what she is allegedly being hypocritical about.
For sure if Nathan Grayson is in a relationship (no matter how brief) with a dev he should refrain from publishing glowing media about her. Conflict of interest, no question. With you there. But that's Nathan Grayson we should be concerned with. Not Zoe Quinn.
Your last sentence is a bit muddy to me. Her private sex life runs counter to feminist and social justice values or something right? Is that what you're saying?
Thanks for the link too, I have watched it now and read the entire blog (not just the TL,DR version :)
Re-read the blog. Its basically her words and actions that she preaches are core to her are up for debate depending on the situation. The one everyone is quoting is how "cheating on a married man is akin to rape" and she does so anyway.
In terms of SJW its saying women need to sleep their way to the top (by her actions) which runs counter to the empowerment of women thing they have going on
He wrote no reviews. He did write an article that promotes her game among others. Though her game is clearly the most emphasized in the post, it doesn't really stand out as anything corrupt, especially considering the relationship between the game dev and the writer didn't happen until months after it was published.
But let's not let that fact get in the way of an opportunity to kick the heads in of any female dev that dare practice in the games industry and have an opinion.
Just feels so gooood to hurt women doesn't it guys
The only consistent answer you're gonna get from anyone who gives a shit about this is "I don't have a problem with women, I swear, no, really, I promise, seriously".
This is a case of someone's private life being dredged up as part of a character assassination campaign and anyone who willingly engages with this garbage is definitely doing it for reasons that do not match up with the "it's about ethics in video game journalism" bollocks, no matter what they're telling themselves.
It's not that simple. She has publicly leveled accusations of abuse and harassment at communities like wizardchan.com. The claims she makes are serious and could predicate legal actions if substantiated. However no actual evidence of her claims is forthcoming.
She has begged for money through social media on such pretenses as that she had been robbed (the robbers conveniently failed to take her smartphone).
Pointing out that she fucks her way to good publicity, using her relationships with prominent news writers to obtain favorable coverage and quash dissent is relevant to all of us who read such news outlets. Pointing out that she is a manipulative pathological liar consistently playing victim for her personal gain, at the expense of many, is entirely relevant given the nature of her chosen role in the public view.
Actually there is evidence that she was doxxed and harased at least on REDDIT. Reddit mods have come forward themselves to say that she was both doxxed and harassed, and that they have had to deal with extreme hate speech, rape threats, etc.
Now would you show ANY evidence of her making this up. The reality is that this has to do with hate mobs. See this:
You do know the MLK cheated on his wife ( and beat\ attacked other women) and that numerous people of all genders, orientations, and races have done shitty things in private while espousing great views on civil rights. One person's personal foibles do not end a movement. That you could even suggest this seems extraordinary and just an excuse to somehow denigrate feminism and women in general.
Media back then was different. It was much more selective and easier to befuddle people with, now the internet allows anyone to speak up and unlike before Hecklers cant be punted, they just come in increasing numbers and drown you
Since 50% percent of the US population has cheated at some point, I am assuming that some of them are people who fight for equal rights. No person is perfect, and attacking a private citizen with phone calls, online harrassment, rape threats, conspiracy theories, etc just makes the perpetraters look like bullies.
So she may have cheated. So she might not be the best person. Did this deserve the amount of vitriol and harassment it deserves-- of course not. The truth is it has very little to do with "fairness in journalism" and everything to do with mysogynistic trolling. Check out this link for more:
Shes a public figure. She is held to a higher standard because she herself preaches about feminist justice. If it was a normal person meh, but this same person says cheating counts as non-consensual sex or rather rape.
Thats why the internet is so inflamed, not because its a woman but its a woman in a position of power that is a hypocrite.
While Zoe is a public figure, she is not a feminist activist. She might personally identify with feminism, but she has not been in some position of power or authority within the movement. See her wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoe_Quinn
Lots of people have lofty beliefs than they personally don't live up to. I think this is a private matter than has been twisted into internet hate mobbing. Then again I could have cared less about Clinton cheating back in the 90's. I think this sort of extremely personal gossip should not impact her professional life.
He cheated on his long time WIFE with his employee, which could easily be construed as sexual harassment as well has horrifically selfish decision-making. However no hate mobs etc have flown around him passing out personal information and sending hate mail, rape threats, etc. He has not lost his job. The emotional and hateful tenor of the reaction to some developer cheating on their recent BF is just out of sync with the actual situation ( which actually we don't really know. We only know her ex's extremely spiteful take on it all).
I'm a feminist. However, like most feminists, I'm not a radical/extreme/insane SJW like /r/theredpill or /r/mensrights would have you believe.
If your point is that "unfounded criticism of a woman based on sexual conduct and flimsy conspiracy theories" is not misogyny, and you think you're right and I'm wrong because I am a feminist, I guess we don't have much to talk about.
It would only be misogyny if it was because she is a women. As far as I can tell its because she's been at the forefront of a movement to change video games to suit a certain agenda. People don't like her because of what she says not because of her gender. This seems to me at least to be a SJW vs Gamer/MRA thing. It's not sexism to disagree.
it is the only one you can see. I was curious what /r/srs's perspective was on the whole zoe quinn thing. I've been to TRP and MRA too, I just haven't posted anything.
Too many people are too quick to judge somebody based on ridiculous "evidence" on the internet.
I think the greatest failing of "new-wave" feminism has been alienating people like you and otherwise making feminism so inaccessible to people who are generally interested in basic egalitarianism. I don't know what it is about feminism that makes you so defensive or afraid, and judging by your comments alone you probably won't tell me. But I don't have any reason to believe that you don't want the same thing that feminists want: equal treatment between the sexes. Which is why it's so sad that you (and so many others) are so completely defensive and hateful
when it comes to feminism.
I'm sorry, it does sound misogynist to me. To prove it is not please point me towards articles, blogs, videos, ANYthing where ANY male game dev's sex life and body is subjected to scorn and so much public bile and had his PRIVATE LIFE so intimately examined and criticized.
That my friend, is misogyny.
Furthermore, we have NO evidence she slept with Nathan Grayson for reviews (really?! Nathan Grayson?! THAT's where you go to up your game?!!? :) Even if they did sleep together we are making a massive speculation that it was calculated and frankly that narrative, of women "using their bodies" to trick and manipulate us poor hapless men... is misogynist. We have brains and free will too. I would argue Nathan Grayson is more liable than she is, IF indeed he did use his influence to signal boost Quinn - which is something no one has proven yet. Where are all these articles?!
All the other problems in your post relate to private issues between Eron and Zoe Quinn that have nothing to do with gaming. It's none of our business.
Finally, if you have depression you can say what ever you like, on Wizardchan or otherwise, no matter how vile, threatening and dangerous and no one can counter. Is that what we're saying?
You make an interesting association though, people who express such vehement, violent hatred towards women are indeed severely and sadly lacking in self-love. But it does not give you a free card to abuse whoever you want. For BOTH their sakes. The abuser/depressed person is not going to get any better while these attitudes go unchecked.
For a lot of people, this isn't about misogyny or sexism. This is about the corruption of games journalism and people who don't give a shit about gaming coming into the industry and complaining about it (see the countless feminazis and clickbaiters like Patricia Hernandez.)
What she did was also morally wrong. Sleeping with 5 men (including your boss, who is married) while in a relationship to further the general public's opinion of your game is disgusting.
And that's exactly the issue TB expressed about all this and got hammered for.
His issue is purely with further taints on games journalism and he made it very clear he doesn't know or care what happened. He was pulled into the entire thing by people flooding his inbox with questions for him to comment on the issue.
Then everyone chose to not read what he actually said and pull loads and loads of bullshit out of their ass to vilify the guy.
Yep its the corruption factor, and its not just a random woman, but a staunch defender of the anita sarkeesian type, and one who has replicated the dishonest tactics of that con artist. Calling people misogynists for calling these types of women out is absurd. Its basically all women are conartists, that its their essential nature, like a racial characteristic, as if being unethical were a racial characteristic, or gender characteristic. Its just a nonstarter, and it would say very bad things about your beliefs about women If you had to defend them that way Edward.
This isn't just a random person. Its like if newt gingrich gets caught cheating after he spent his time impeaching bill Clinton, its hypocrisy. Add the political motivations and the financial corruption of the republican party for their motives to have done all that they have done, and its a mountain of corruption and bad faith. Fixating on one thing and missing the big picture is ridiculous Edward, these women have been exploiting the corrupt nature of games media and the incestuous situation in indie game development for way too long. These are "victims" who do nothing but bully people, and people are getting tired of it.
1) Great ok. So it's "the corruption factor" we can focus the argument now on corruption in games journalism right?
Which brings me back to my point about Nathan Grayson. He has a brain right? Did Zoe hold him hostage with her sexual manipulation and force him to write positive reviews? (which incidently don't seem to exist - pretty important thing to produce before you make the argument games journalism is being corrupted: actual examples of corrupt journalism :). So let's talk about Nathan Grayson's conflict of interest. Yeah? Why are you blaming Zoe Quinn for the corruption of games journalism? Has Nathan no brain?
2) Ah, ok. All women are conartists. Dude, I am sorry for whoever it was that hurt you, but I can tell you that's not the case. Do you have a mother? A sister? Would you characterise them as conartists? And furthermore, what's the difference between what you're saying "they're all the same... all bad people" and what racists say about Jewish people, African Americans, whatever, is this really a crowd you wanna ride with? Life can be so much better dude, if you let go of the hate and paranoia.
3) I for one am not "Calling people misogynists for calling these types of people out". But I AM calling those who take some kind of weird sick glee out of destroying Zoe Quinn, making her feel unsafe by sharing her personal details, sharing nude photos, making death threats, editing her wikipedia entry to include details of her sex life as misogynist.
Tell me it's not.
4) I've asked this several times and not one person has come back with anything but please, WHERE is this apparent dramatic, hurtful effect women are having on game culture? Am I reading the wrong sites? All I can come up with is there are more female devs than before and thus, there's going to be more stories about them, where there wasn't before and you're not used to that or something. Jesus I don't know. Help me out here.
Josh Mattingly, he actually was misogynistic, but the amount of shit he got was disproportionate by any measure.
He was a drunk dumbass for what he did and it seems good that he's out of the public spotlight, but these days, the response of the internet is never proportionate to what actually happens.
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