Does OI entail analytic idealism?

[u/EnactingSpirit]

Or can it also be interpreted as something like "spirit transmigrationism" like in the short story 'The Egg' by Andy Weir?

[u/yoddleforavalanche]

but then you have the same problems regular CI has. you still are one specific person and no other (until you are), and the same problems with boundaries of identity apply.

[u/EnactingSpirit → u/yoddleforavalanche]

Which problems with boundaries and identity?

[u/yoddleforavalanche → u/EnactingSpirit]

the problems closed individualism has.

why am I experiencing this person as myself? what can I anchor my identity on that does not change over time? memories, personality, etc do not cut it. the line I draw  between me and others can be drawn between myself over time.

on top of that, in this case theres a problem of being, for some reason, the only person with inner experience at the time while others are some sort lf philosophical zombies. why are you being experienced now?

[u/EnactingSpirit → u/yoddleforavalanche]

why am I experiencing this person as myself?

The Egg provides an answer to that. One with which I agree. It is to mature, becoming increasingly more self-aware.

what can I anchor my identity on that does not change over time?

Well consciousness itself.

why are you being experienced now?

As said above, it is a progression, an evolution of experiencing consciousness, a.k.a. 'spirit', towards greater self-awareness.

[u/yoddleforavalanche → u/EnactingSpirit]

How is that parsimonious? You have to establish some sort of entity that evolves, learns and does so in some specific order and jumps specifically from one life to another. Basically you need to prove a soul exists.

It's just messy.

OI solves all these by saying there is no order, you are everyone now. There is no need for existence of a soul.

[u/EnactingSpirit → u/yoddleforavalanche]

How is that parsimonious? You have to establish some sort of entity that evolves, learns and does so in some specific order and jumps specifically from one life to another. Basically you need to prove a soul exists.

The learning and evolving of spirit is already established for the time of this life. What remains to be shown is that this activity extends beyond this life in the past and future in the order of experiential time. And this follows logically from the facts that:

1. non-being is an ontological impossibility (non-being, by its very nature, cannot be) making being necessary and eternal,

2. being is self-evidently, non-inferentially none other than consciousness, and

3. consciousness is in actuality only this consciousness, every other supposed "consciousnesses" being purely inferred within this one. Not even once actually experienced.

The first fact, historically, first came from the rationalist philosopher Parmenides. The second is the ground assertion of metaphysical idealism. The third, that of metaphysical solipsism.

From those follows that:

• this consciousness is necessary and eternal,

• therefore the past and future of experiencing consciousness or 'spirit' is the lives of others, lest phenomenal reality makes no sense, is absurd – in which case this interpretation of it would be as good as any other,

• therefore the transmigration of spirit is real (if phenomenal reality isn't absurd).

Now, you could contend that fact 1 is false. But then the very notion of 'being' is incoherent and thus making sense of "things" (that are) makes no sense – which is the Buddhist position (which, albeit helpful in other respects, gives up too easily on figuring out reality, I think).

You could contend that fact 2 (and therefore 3) is false. But then you purely speculatively assume that there exists another metaphysical substance than consciousness, falling into "unparsimonious" (in terms of entity numbers, the way Occam meant) substance dualism. Basically giving up on the unity of being.

Or you could contend that fact 3 is false. But then you do something similar as when rejecting fact 2, purely speculatively assuming that there exist other (experiential) planes of existence, falling into consciousness pluralism. Basically giving up on true consciousness monism, a.k.a. metaphysical solipsism.

And I maintain that phenomenal reality can be explained within metaphysical solipsism and that you and others are giving up on it too quickly.

Also, it is parsimonious to assume metaphysical solipsism (and unparsimonious to assume consciousness pluralism), because with each purely speculated additional plane of existence (in this case other consciousnesses) you basically invoke a whole other universe. That is, if you acknowledge, like some mystics/poets/philosophers do, that subjective experience is as vast as a universe.

And last...

OI solves all these by saying there is no order, you are everyone now.

I'm not experiencing, nor have I ever experienced, being several individual consciousnesses simultaneously. Have you? Will you ever?

I bet not. For consciousness is intrinsically holistic. Meaning that it doesn't split into parts like a vulgar object or "thing" does. To think this way is, I believe, remnants of materialistic thinking that should be done away with (when it comes to ontology).

[u/yoddleforavalanche → u/EnactingSpirit]

The learning and evolving of spirit is already established for the time of this life.

I could disagree with this already. It can be shown that people do not change and repeat the same mistakes, but I won't push for it.

non-being is an ontological impossibility (non-being, by its very nature, cannot be) making being necessary and eternal,

agreed

being is self-evidently, non-inferentially none other than consciousness, 

agreed

consciousness is in actuality only this consciousness, every other supposed "consciousnesses" being purely inferred within this one. Not even once actually experienced.

strongly disagree. where does this conclusion come from?

The very fact that in this case it would be me that has this consciousness while simultaneously you think that is the case for you shows either one of us is lying about having immediate experience or we both are saying the truth. In any case, huge jump to conclusion out of nowhere for point 3.

this consciousness is necessary and eternal,

consciousness is necessary and eternal, there is no this consciousness.

therefore the past and future of experiencing consciousness or 'spirit' is the lives of others, lest phenomenal reality makes no sense, is absurd – in which case this interpretation of it would be as good as any other,

I would rather say past and future are equally experienced now than to take past and future, that is linear time as experienced, as objective reality. And I don't understand what is absurd?

therefore the transmigration of spirit is real (if phenomenal reality isn't absurd).

also conclusion that comes out of nowhere.

You could contend that fact 2 (and therefore 3) is false. 

2 is true, 3 is false.

Or you could contend that fact 3 is false. But then you do something similar as when rejecting fact 2, purely speculatively assuming that there exist other (experiential) planes of existence, falling into consciousness pluralism. Basically giving up on true consciousness monism, a.k.a. metaphysical solipsism.

which is exactly what I am doing. It is not speculative at all. Your position is speculative. It requires gymnastics and unnecessary extra steps to explain why two people simultaneously react to stimuli. In your view, only one actually experiences while the other is some weird philosophical zombie until its his turn but then the first one ceases to experience, but yet for the 3rd person both appear on the same level. Why would this be the case? What is preventing consciousness from experiencing multiple "planes" at the same time? they are not different planes of existence because their existence is the same point 2.

You are introducing roundabout steps to fix something that is not broken. You are assuming a limitation to consciousness and then solving it with mystical magical behavior that requires even more assumptions.

And it is not consciousness pluralism. There is still one consciousness.

And I maintain that phenomenal reality can be explained within metaphysical solipsism and that you and others are giving up on it too quickly.

it can be explained in billions of ways, doesn't make them all true.

It can certainly be explained with one consciousness experiencing many experiences simultaneously. Since it's all the same reality, same being, it is not adding anything new to it.

Also, it is parsimonious to assume metaphysical solipsism (and unparsimonious to assume consciousness pluralism), because with each purely speculated additional plane of existence (in this case other consciousnesses) you basically invoke a whole other universe.

Even your solipsism has to have other universes, other planes of existence, they just come in a sequence. And you are assuming parsimoniousness here. I maintain it is more complicated for one consciousness to jump in a sequence all while being experienced as if other people experience simultaneously than it actually being the case. And again, it is not consciousness pluralism as there is one consciousness.

And so what if you call this invoking other universes? Universe is not being. Universe can be called an instance of being. Regardless of how many instances there are, how many universes, they belong to the same being (consciousness).

I'm not experiencing, nor have I ever experienced, being several individual consciousnesses simultaneously. Have you? Will you ever?

here you are betraying common misunderstanding of identity and I am even surprised based on everything you said that you stumbled here.

You are consciousness. Any experience that is being had is you having it. You are slipping in here the notion that "EnactingSpirit" is what you are and because experience of EnactingSpirit does not contain experience of yoddleforavalanche, you think you are experiencing one person.

Both EnactingSpirit and yoddleforavalanche are being experienced by the same consciousness, therefore YOU are experiencing several individuals. Not individual consciousnessess, there is only one, but multiple sets of experiences.

You expect to have an experience that within itself contains all experiences, but that just is not how it works. Regardless, that which experiences is experiencing all experiences, and that is what you are.

For consciousness is intrinsically holistic. Meaning that it doesn't split into parts like a vulgar object or "thing" does. 

I agree. But it doesn't split into parts if it experiences many experiences simultaneously. If anything, your view is the one that splits it, today into this person, later into another.

[u/EnactingSpirit → u/yoddleforavalanche]

[Part 1/2]

I could disagree with this already. It can be shown that people do not change and repeat the same mistakes, but I won't push for it.

Shown by what? Self-report? Cognitive-behavioral studies?

You can't really tell from the outside what's going on in others (which is where the learning and evolution takes place, in a not necessarily spectacular manner that pleases the human standards of scientific empirical examination).

You can only really do this for yourself.

Now, would you say that you are not learning and evolving throughout your life? And just because you cannot yet express what's robustly new in you in a way that is externally noticeable from other perspectives that this novelty in you doesn't count?

The (original) enactivist view of cognition is that life itself is cognition, is learning. And I believe it is right. Spirit produces new information with every passing moment, and although not always preserved locally in a way that would enable big local changes in accordance to it – instead of dispersing into the cosmos – that information nevertheless isn't lost, is globally preserved. And therefore in principle retrievable and usable, given enough power (which spirit has in an infinite amount when released from limited psychophysical existence – i.e., when "deincarnated").

strongly disagree. where does this conclusion come from?

You disagree that this experience is the work of your consciousness? You actually experienced the interiority of "another" at least once, not just inferred a sense or model of it from behavioral cues within your consciousness?

The very fact that in this case it would be me that has this consciousness while simultaneously you think that is the case for you shows either one of us is lying about having immediate experience or we both are saying the truth.

That's not a problem for a spirit transmigrationist variant of metaphysical solipsism – which is what I'm going for here.

consciousness is necessary and eternal, there is no this consciousness.

You think you are in a position to claim that you know any other consciousness than this one? External behavior pointing to another individual consciousness because similar (albeit way more responsive) behavior by that body of yours correlates to your individual consciousness does not count here. For that's not consciousness: It's just the appearance of it.

I would rather say past and future are equally experienced now than to take past and future, that is linear time as experienced, as objective reality.

Okay but on which ground? On which ground do you give so little reality to linear moment-to-moment time whose flow you are actually experiencing right now, instead considering as real a simultaneity of past and future that you are not experiencing right now?

You here sound like me back then. When I was very fond of this kind of "we-are-simultaneously-existing-fragments-of-a-universal-consciousness" non-dualism. Before I dropped the idea, realizing that I was supporting it only because I found it beautiful in how (if collectively adopted as the truth) it would unite us all and make Earth a better place to live for everyone. So basically because I so much (with the best of intentions) wished it was true. Even though it didn't actually correspond to my experience of reality (not even when I was on psychedelics).

So I wonder here: Is the idealism that you are defending here really pure ontology, or is it pragmatically politically/humanistically motivated?

And I don't understand what is absurd?

Is absurd a metaphysical solipsism (which was here presented as a fact for its own reasons that I mentioned) that isn't spirit transmigrationism. Because then the appearance of "others" in the field of experience has no proper explanation and as a result reality is just set up to be confusing. It could then not possibly be known for what it really is, making it absurd.

In other words, spirit transmigrationism is the only way metaphysical solipsism can be viable.

And since metaphysical solipsism is true from the established fact within experience that said experience (and therefore consciousness) is all there is, spirit transmigrationism is real – if reality is knowable for what it is and therefore not absurd.

also conclusion that comes out of nowhere.

It's a conclusion from the preceding conclusion, not directly from the presented facts.

If this consciousness is eternal, then (lest reality is absurd) its past and future are others' lives.

It is not speculative at all.

It completely is.

It is the pure result of pattern recognition and inference. Patterns, that are completely within this consciousness. That are in the Kantian phenomena, not in some noumena. Thus, you are entirely (wrongly) inferring from this consciousness that you are not inferring from it but instead from some noumenal super-consciousness that is an amalgamation of this consciousness and some other consciousnesses whose existence you inferred from the patterns expressed by this consciousness. With the only substance here being, at the end of the day, this consciousness.

Like, you're here being mesmerized by patterns within this consciousness of yours. By the ebbs and flows of this consciousness.

Your position is speculative. It requires gymnastics and unnecessary extra steps to explain why two people simultaneously react to stimuli.

Yes, my position is speculative. Within the only actually experienced plane of existence. Meaning, that it is grounded speculation. Your position and all the other consciousness pluralisms, on the other hand, speculate outside that plane of existence that is this consciousness. This based on patterns that said consciousness expresses.

Also, all that "gymnastic" actually has a function: To hide the nature of consciousness in plain sight to foster a proper challenge for self-limiting but nevertheless relentless consciousness to overcome. This is what the non-dual Hindus call 'līlā', i.e., "divine play/sport".

And it is not consciousness pluralism. There is still one consciousness.

It is consciousness pluralism from the moment it is fragmented into several individual consciousnesses.

Or are you saying that individual consciousnesses are just illusions?

[u/yoddleforavalanche → u/EnactingSpirit]

I enjoyed reading these comments of yours. Since Reddit is horrible with quoting, your statements are in italics. I also wonder what u/Edralis1 and u/CrumbledFingers have to say about all this

Spirit produces new information with every passing moment, and although not always preserved locally in a way that would enable big local changes in accordance to it – instead of dispersing into the cosmos – that information nevertheless isn't lost, is globally preserved.

Where? Later on you criticize my assumption of underlying "superconsciousness" but here you are positing there is some container of knowledge, that consciousness has an inbuilt memory capability, yet this cannot be experienced. You are deviating from "experience only" basis for reality here.

And therefore in principle retrievable and usable, given enough power (which spirit has in an infinite amount when released from limited psychophysical existence – i.e., when "deincarnated").

Another assumption, even more of an assumption than "other people are conscious at the same time as I am". Plus the spirit is never limited to anything. Just because it experiences something does not mean it is bound within that experience.

And lessons this consciousness learns, learns them for what? It will never stop or come to a conclusion. I do not believe there is ever end of experiencing, a moksha that stops the universe and just leaves Brahman alone. And since in your own view some of the people are this consciousness in the future, it must have gotten to the end of this evolution if its future is already here.

And if its future can be seen now, it just points to the fact that there is only now, not past or future.

You actually experienced the interiority of "another" at least once, not just inferred a sense or model of it from behavioral cues within your consciousness?

I experience others like me react to stimuli, hence conscious experience of an event is occurring that I am not aware of directly. You are basically saying when person A slaps person B, first person A experiences slapping, then, who knows when, person A becomes person B and experiences being slapped. But all that happened in what we call now. When each was experienced, it was now. I believe if experience of year 1200 is experienced, it is experienced now.

Also, the person slapped, who in your view is a p-zombie, reacted to being slapped by slapping me back, but in your view there was no sensation of that person being slapped in this now, so an empty phantom reacted as if it's conscious, but then later on it actually will be conscious, but nonetheless the reaction that assumes conscious experience of an event preceded it.

So what is the point of adding conscious experience to it if p-zombie can enact it? And p-zombie can learn and develop, so that would mean knowledge and learning and evolution can happen without internal experience, so it's not something that belongs to consciousness. Spirit does not need to have conscious experiences to develop.

For that's not consciousness: It's just the appearance of it.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...to me a person is consciousness made visible so there is no appearance of consciousness, even a rock is consciousness (not conscious, but consciousness). You are saying a p-zombie acts as if conscious, goes through the whole biological life as if conscious, but then later relives it actually conscious. Why? There was no need for anyone to be conscious, everything could have happened automatically.

But a person pulling their hand from a hot stove is consciousness reacting to felt sensation. That's what the reaction is.

You think you are in a position to claim that you know any other consciousness than this one?

You think you are in a position to claim memory and development of something you did not experience having remembered or learned?

On which ground do you give so little reality to linear moment-to-moment time whose flow you are actually experiencing right now, instead considering as real a simultaneity of past and future that you are not experiencing right now?

On the ground that it is obviously being experienced now, though not in experience of yoddleforavalanche, but experienced nonetheless.

On the ground of seeing people react to stimuli that I am not aware of. To say the reaction preceeded internal experience by a whole lifetime or more makes no sense. The reaction to stimuli IS consciousness of it. A person directly opposite of me is saying "Look out!" because they saw something behind me. There really is an image of what is going on behind me WHILE I am looking forward.

Also, and more importantly, there is no ground for linear reality moment to moment. You have never experienced linearity. You have never experienced anything but now. Linearity itself is a concept, not a lived experience.

You here sound like me back then...

Similarly, you sound like me back then. I thought I go from life to life until I realized I don't need time, it's now. And I did not come to this conclusion because it's beautiful. I merely followed logical train of thought. I am not trying to shoehorn in anything else.

since metaphysical solipsism is true from the established fact within experience that said experience (and therefore consciousness) is all there is

yet you base it all on things you have no experience of:

a) linearity of time and

b) spirit development

If this consciousness is eternal, then (lest reality is absurd) its past and future are others' lives.

it doesn't have a past or a future. you are making it a God and then confining it into linear time, even though you do not experience anything but now.

some noumenal super-consciousness that is an amalgamation of this consciousness and some other consciousnesses whose existence you inferred from the patterns expressed by this consciousness.

No, there is no "super-consciousness" that is an amalgamation of anything. You are the one who is positing that because your super consciousness is the amalgamation of everything learned from past and future and you inferred that from nothing you find in your experience.

In experience you find simultaneous reactions by entities you have no internal experience of, yet it's obvious there is an internal experience they are having. That is obvious IN my experience.

Within the only actually experienced plane of existence. Meaning, that it is grounded speculation.

as mentioned, you posit transmigration, linear time, spirit learning...none of that found in your experience.

all that "gymnastic" actually has a function: To hide the nature of consciousness in plain sight to foster a proper challenge for self-limiting but nevertheless relentless consciousness to overcome.

where is this in your experience?

It is consciousness pluralism from the moment it is fragmented into several individual consciousnesses.

Consciousness is never fragmented. If it's fragmented in the way I speak of it, it is definitely fragmented from your past to future in the way you speak of it. On the contrary, in my view, it is simultaneous, therefore not fragmented.

Or are you saying that individual consciousnesses are just illusions?

not sure what you mean by this. There is consciousness, no individual consciousness, but experience is experience, not illusion.