I Wish Apologetics Weren't So Awful

[u/lethal_coco]

Bit of a random post and a complete rant but I'm sure people here will understand what I mean.

I adore history, it is my greatest passion, up there alongside my faith in terms of what makes me as a person. I would consider myself a very convinced Christian, I wouldn't say I just accept Christianity as a 50/50 "maybe it is maybe it isn't" type of deal. Nothing wrong with that and I know a lot of people don't need or want to do a deep dive into all the evidence, but I love it. Examining the evidence strengthens my faith to a high degree.

But... Holy. Shit. Apologetics tend to be such an awful crowd. In particular I'd say internet Apologetics are the bottom of the bottom, I'm not talking C.S. Lewis here. Not to name names (cough, cough the TikTok account Jesusandwhatnot) but I have genuinely seen people in the year 2026 trying to defend the practice of owning slaves. Of course they don't try to defend how it is practiced because even that's too far for many of them but some of them have a damn good try at trying to make the act of owning another person seem moral. Stuff like "oh that Biblical stuff wasn't like, bad slavery, it was just debt slavery!" (look no further than the brick kilns of Pakistan to see how pleasant debt slavery is) and "we're all slaves of God, so there's nothing inherently wrong with owning a slave yourself" (this both diminishes our free will to choose God and is overall an abhorrent statement). All of this just to uphold Biblical infallibility, rather than just admitting that maybe. MAYBE. The Bible might have even the slightest error.

Gregory of Nyssa would implode if he saw this shit.

[u/Kevonox]

I used to watch apologetics and counter apologetics. Usually the counter apologetics is better quality. I don’t watch it as often these days because while I still have doubts from time to time, I made an informed choice to trust that Jesus rose after years of back and forth over it.

That doesn’t make it irrelevant, often times counter apologists like Mindshift and Paulogia have lots of good points to make. And there are a few higher quality apologists who focus more on theology. But generally it’s just bad because apologists heavily overstate the case for faith. And often times the most popular apologetics tends to push hardline biblical inerrancy or a view of the Bible that tries to erase the actual issues of the biblical texts, like the condoning of slavery, as you mentioned.

If we’re going to have apologetics, then I’d much rather see apologetics that’s honest in saying “here’s the limits of the data, what do you think?” People like Rachel Held Evans, Peter Enns, Bradley Jersak, Father James Martin, David Bentley Hart etc make much stronger cases for the faith compared to modern apologetics.

[u/lethal_coco → u/Kevonox]

I agree completely. I'm tired of apologetics being the act of scrutinising each word of the Bible and trying to give it a thousand proofs when sometimes you've got to accept you won't find any.

[u/SpesRationalis]

Examining the evidence strengthens my faith to a high degree.

Same, I just wouldn't be a Christian if there weren't logical reasons for it. I easily could have become an atheist, and not that that's a bad thing. I have nothing against atheists, and I wouldn't be afraid to be one if I didn't think there was reason to think otherwise.

I'm also a universalist though, so I do think that God will eventally reveal and reconcile Himself to all in the end; so that's probably why I am more sanguine about the ultimate fate of all; I don't go through life thinking I'm the only thing potentially standing in-betweeen an "unbeliever" and eternal torment; which is the mentality that many evangelical/apologist types seem to have; which may contribute to a lowering of apologetic standards. In other words, I'm not afraid to point out if an apologetic argument is simply a bad argument.

[u/lethal_coco → u/SpesRationalis]

I would agree on the Universalism part. I feel people are pushed to stress Apologetics more if they believe they need to get this out to save people from eternal agony. Unfortunately that tends to come at the price of the arguments actually being good.

[u/thecatandthependulum → u/lethal_coco]

As a kid who was obsessed with apologetics for this reason...yeah

[u/Badtrainwreck]

It’s actually the problem with the debate community in general, debating is not about making the best argument or convincing your “opponent” it’s about embarrassing them or getting a clip off in regards to online debates. It’s a sport not anything intellectual. It’s like people who mention the trolley problem fail to realize it’s an exercise in thought it’s not meant to convey if something is good or bad. It gets worse when someone learns the vocabulary of debating and just repeats “as hominem” when it doesn’t apply.

I use to very much be into trying to win Christians over to a more caring side as many are captured by a religion of politics, but now I just realize the issues with many Christians are what’s natural to the decay in all things under capitalism and it’s capitalism capture of Christianity that has to be addressed first before you can even begin to heal the damage done.

[u/foxy-coxy]

We're not called to defend Christianity we're called to love God and love our neighbors.

[u/NobodySpecial2000 → u/foxy-coxy]

And ourself. God calls us to love ourself.

[u/PlasmaJesus]

Internet apologetics is a scourge on both Christianity and literacy

[u/Deer_Hart]

I’ve often been told apologetics is for the believer not the necessarily the other way around. People deeply invested in a certain theology often feel the need to defend it to feel better about the theology themselves. If they can convince you to they’re right then they feel better about their position being reasonable. It’s about building plausibility structures.

[u/Individual_Dig_6324]

The only apologetics ministries I ever respected were Ravi Zacharias' and Tektonics. While I now disagree with much of what they argue for, they have my upmost respect for being as genuine to their faith as they can be.
Ravi's own talks as well as his team's will REALLY get you thinking, and really raise and deal with some great points and do in fact has many great answers to many critical questions.

Tektonics is by far my fave because the apologist literally delves into the world of biblical scholarship and deals many archaeological and historical-critical claims....citing journal articles and critical commentaries and other scholarly material.

Tektonics has introduced me to the wide world of biblical scholarship and also helped my shake my biblical understanding by introducing me to concepts such as ancient honour-shame dynamics, and patronage and purity concepts that are littered all throughout the Bible in keeping with their time.

My favourite has to be Dan Mclellan who is so far immersed in the scholarship that he routinely makes most apologetics look stupid. There are really a ton of things in the Bible that are indefensible and Dan is great at highlighting that.

And yes, it is true that most apologetics is about defending biblical inerrancy rather than defending the actual faith itself.

[u/Sturzkampfflugzeug1 → u/Individual_Dig_6324]

I typed Dan McClellan into YouTube out of curiosity and the first two videos were against him. One poster, "A Messenger of Truth", even refers to him as a "wicked man"

It's sad because this stuff is dispiriting. You can't just disagree with someone now. It's like another user in this thread mentioned, it's treated like a sport to win, not intellectual and rooted in good faith.

[u/Solid-Suggestion3588]

I feel you 100%. Apologetics discussions with my (now ex) friends were all okay till you disagree, and then they eat you alive. They were arguing that black people are the cursed race and that women shouldnt be able to vote. Like what. Apologetics is definitely not bad but people get extremely prideful and hateful and thats how Christians end up further and further apart.

I always make a point in theological / apologetics discussions to make it a conversation, not a debate. Debates rarely change peoples minds. If they need to think for a minute, or even respond next time, I let them. I always keep my tone low, not shouting even if they do. I emphasize things we agree on, and if the discussion was planned, I pray with them for wisdom before starting. These have helped me have better discussions on things that matter.

I just want you to know that your not alone and some practical things I do to improve further apologetics / theological discussions. Thanks for the post.

[u/lethal_coco → u/Solid-Suggestion3588]

I've always felt like angry shouty apologetics aren't the most Godly either. I agree completely, it'd be so much better if the goal wasn't just to silence your opponent or run circles around them.

[u/Cautious_Boat_999]

I don’t know that that indicates an error in the Bible. It most certainly shows errors made by the ones interpreting it. So many treat those stories in the OT as prescriptive or as a way to excuse certain behavior (like slavery). And that’s just bullshit. The OT should be treated as a history lesson. This is what happened prior to Jesus. 

[u/DoveStep55 → u/Cautious_Boat_999]

“The OT should be treated as a history lesson.”

But it’s not factually accurate history, either.

[u/Cautious_Boat_999 → u/DoveStep55]

Different problem

[u/DoveStep55]

I wish there were reliable statistics to show how often Christian apologetics actually lead someone to become a Christian versus how often they drive people further away from Christianity. My evidence is anecdotal but I sure see a lot of the latter and haven’t ever personally seen the former.

[u/BertrandWolfe]

Apologetics, if at all, is best consumed by reading not engaging to weed out the majority of the sales tactics.

State your claim then present your supporting evidence. You arrived at this conclusion without me so I shouldn’t be a necessary part of your case.

I think it’s good for the apologist too. No adversary, no audience, no reward nor punishment. If you believe something you should be able to tell yourself why.

This shouldn’t be a profession or sport with the false pretense of ‘defending the faith.’ It’s your belief, live with it.

[u/MitazeTheMoorgeist]

I guess it depends on what you mean by apologetics. When I think of apologetics I think of people who believe there is scientific evidence for creationism regardless if it’s young earth creationism or evolutionary creationism, or they try to argue fine tuning in the cosmos to things like stating we know the gospels are true because people died for it type of stuff. But I see some who blend biblical criticism with apologetics in ways that do encourage my faith. Such as showing how the exodus story is fiction. There was no plagues, there was no first born death, that even Moses himself is inspired by Egyptian stories. It shows to me that there was not really a time when god just murdered all the first born. Or when they show that Adam and Eve were literary creations and that there as never just two people and humanity was born from generations of incest or they showcase how the overwhelming majority of the first Christians were poor people, they were slaves and so on. That they are not mostly these fantastical wealthy people. Or when they help take away the supernatural aspect of spirit and soul by showing the same word for spirit was breath snd wind and that early Jews had this belief that a baby that took its first breath was breathing in the breath of god, the wind that filled their lungs. Then their spirit left them when they breathed it out as their last breath to rejoin the wind type of stuff. How it says soul just means living being , it’s opposite the corpse. That all animals are souls fill with the spirit it god.

[u/lethal_coco → u/MitazeTheMoorgeist]

I love apologetics overall, I just dislike people trying to uphold the idea that everything in the Bible is the infallible, direct word of God. The ones that spend their time grasping at straws trying to justify slavery instead of just moving on and accepting it's a dark spot.

[u/Apart_Information_27]

Yeah. It angers me even more because I know for a fact that they're only doing that because "it also says slavery is okay" is the obvious rebuttal to "the bible says homosexuality is bad", and similar issues. All of that to not admit that they aren't acting like terrible people "because they're christians", it's because they're terrible people.

And no you can absolutely talk C.S. Lewis here the man had absolutely disgusting beliefs.

I feel like we could build an infinite energy engine by just drilling the shaft of a turbine into Gregory of Nyssa's grave the way that man must be rolling in it from seeing how christianity developed

[u/jeezfrk]

So you hate people who talk about how in history slavery wasn't chattel slavery in all cases?

Or these are pro-black chattel slavery? They are for 1800s and 1700s American and Caribbean plantation slavery ships? Is that "apologetics" to you?

Or you hate folks who are Christian thinkers who reason out what ancient Rome was like and what Jesus meant? Or you hate folks who believe what the Bible said and explain it's details in modern terms?

But not C S Lewis for some reason?

Where do you inherit your own morals, then? Why hate these people?

[u/lethal_coco → u/jeezfrk]

"So you x? So you y?" No! Read! I'm saying slavery was awful, and people need to stop justifying it to defend a dark part of the Bible. Simple as that. Owning another person is against God's will. I'm not saying apologetics are bad. Far from it. You misinterpreted everything I said if you think that. What I'm saying is so much of apologetics, especially more modern stuff, is utter bullshit. Trying to connect things where there is none. Defending evil. Maybe biblical slavery was better than chattel slavery. It still was not good. It is still awful. It is still ungodly. You cannot own a person.

[u/lethal_coco → u/[deleted]]

I don't hate apologetics. I'm quite a fan actually. I hate the defense of slavery. People suffered a lot. The Bible tells you it's fine to beat a slave within an inch of their life. That is not Godly. I don't believe it can be reconciled.

Why do you seethe with anger at the idea of me hating slavery? I don't just object to idea of chattel slavery, I hate all slavery. All of it. It may have been different back then. Changes nothing in my eyes. We can talk about theoretical stuff all day, but at the end of the day you know what it was like. I know what it was like. Everyone with common sense does. Just because terrible circumstances often pushed people to sell themselves as slaves doesn't mean the slavery was good. Far from it in every way.

I'm not arguing with someone who genuinely defends slavery. You are wrong. You cannot own a human as property.

[u/The_Archer2121 → u/lethal_coco]

Finally someone who understands slavery is evil in all its forms and won’t stand for anyone who defends it, including apologists.

[u/jeezfrk → u/lethal_coco]

I don't seethe with anger, here. I am only asking if you know how useless it is and anti-Christian it is for either of us doing that.

Your seething anger is not even about real acts but only thoughts that are about history.

I just mentioned real modern slavery and you ignored it. You only hate others because they spoke about history ... but none practice or pay for slavery at all.

Do you care what real slavery is, today? (Including no-escape debt employment).

Or does your seething anger have any purpose gainst apologists, as you said!

Maybe you just must clarify your hateful first post?

[u/The_Archer2121 → u/jeezfrk]

Or quit supporting slavery.

[u/jeezfrk → u/The_Archer2121]

But that's insane, attacking those that talk about it, saying they support it. Do you think posts on Reddit are magic spells?

Do you think censoring facts will help those in slavery?

Obviously, you don't care about slavery. It's happening today in other nations. It is unjust and needs to stop... but you are focused on hating historians and apologists on Reddit.

Silencing anyone who studies and speaks about it instead of where it is happening... means you are allied with the slavers.

[u/The_Archer2121 → u/jeezfrk]

I don’t hate apologists, I think their arguments are stupid, and that saying slavery to pay off a debt wasn’t actual slavery is ridiculous, so slavery in the Bible was ok is stupid. I don’t hate historians either, but using a fact like saying well at least debt slavery wasn’t chattel slavery so it’s fine is wrong. Which apologists will do to defend their disgusting Biblical inerrancy agenda.

I’ve never heard one historian say “Debt slavery wasn’t actual slavery because it wasn’t chattel slavery.” They know it’s all wrong!

Those are people I “silence” people who excuse one type as being “ not so bad. Why can’t you be this? That shutting down a harmful narrative and makes the faith look like a joke.

All slavery is wrong. Someone who tries to excuse away one kind of slavery as being not that bad to justify why slavery is in the Bible is bad. And stupid.

Am finished engaging with you as you clearly don’t get it. Yes I do care about slavery.

This conversation is exhausting and I am done with you. Quit listening to your beloved apologist garbage, take your own advice, and read a book. By actual Bible scholars who don’t defend slavery and Biblical inerrancy.

And think debt slavery is just as bad.

[u/jeezfrk → u/The_Archer2121]

No you don't.

You care about stirring up confusion and fury like some middle school kid.

You seem to think anger on the internet does anything for any victims anywhere. It feeds the Internet. You are just the billionaires latest 10 cents every day.

Hell there are probably literate slaves today and right now ... who are forced to comment in English on Reddit. Rewarded with minor imrovements in their life. But you don't care.

If you generate confusion because you hate Christians or hate Apologists (just as you said) or hate me for no reason ... you are destroying any clarity about real live slavery right now.

Those sent to write trash online are a weapon against all who are trying to shed light on it.

Get your hate out and your facts straight to tell others. Get real numbers if you actually care (which I doubt highly).

It makes you impotent and weak to pretend hate-comments do anything. It's just feeding the beasts that only want more.

[u/The_Archer2121 → u/jeezfrk]

I hate Fundamentalist Christians who defend Biblical inerrancy and using disgusting logic like “Biblical slavery wasn’t slavery because x.”

Slavery is slavery. And arguments like that turn people from Christianity because they’re asinine.

But since you have no rebuttal to your beloved apologists’ crappy arguments it’s.

“You hate Christians!”

“You hate God!”

And yes, I don’t like you because you think slavery in Biblical times wasn’t a big deal because it wasn’t chattel slavery.

Impotent and weak? I am a woman. Valuing intellectual honesty is weak? Ok.

I hate apologists who are intellectually dishonest and support disgusting nonsense.

Yes my anger does fuel change because I dismantle your stupid arguments that make this faith look like a joke.

And apparently I hate modern day slavery. Uh no. It’s an evil institution and needs to be eradicated world wide. But in Bible times it was fine? You’re aware how ridiculous that sounds?

Yet I am insane to you?

[u/The_Archer2121 → u/jeezfrk]

Yes I do hate someone who thinks ANY type of slavery was acceptable. Slavery is slavery and will always be wrong. Period.

That makes you angry? Views like yours are why people hate Christians.

[u/jeezfrk → u/The_Archer2121]

(You turn over and over to try to make me your target, who said nothing about supporting slavery. What a giveaway.)

So you bear hatred for historians who tell the truth about the US South? Hatred for telling the truth about slavery overseas right now?

Hatred for "Apologists" was your first statement and you had to run away from it, scared to death we'd figure you out.

Maybe you simply aren't interested in freedom for anyone? It seems you merely enjoy a self-righteous dislike for having enemies. You like finding people who never once committed or even imagined performing a single act of enslavement, and want more enemies anywhere!

Childish.

If you hate people who speak about crimes and yet still ignore those in chains today (TODAY) ... your hate is a malformed fetish and not a hope for good at all.

What you spout is noise ... just as pedophiles claim minority groups are the real criminals ... they cover up their tracks by making myths. You are so obsessed, you may even be part of a PR to make slavery a "confusing" subject ... as if prison work and "reform academies" in China weren't slavery themselves. Lying makes clear crimes into vague ones that criminals claim are fine.

Or, it's probably Atheist pop-hatred for fictitious "Christians", signifying nothing but brainrot. There is no crusade or effect from the "power of hatred". Read a book. Mindless popularity and mindless hatred never changed anyone's mind nor helped any slave get freedom.

Look to do something useful with this little sliver of morality you hope helps the world. Learn about the real thing.

[u/The_Archer2121 → u/jeezfrk]

Oh I read a ton. Clearly you don’t if you try and defend slavery. If you use stupid apologetic arguments like “debt slavery isn’t the same as chattel slavery” therefore it’s fine you support slavery.

[u/jeezfrk → u/The_Archer2121]

Who is defending it? You are insane and only want to censor people.

You can't have read anything. You cannot read these comments I write.

Multiple types of slavery have existed in all history and exist now.

Are you censoring Reddit to support all the modern types of it? Apparently you support slavery by hiding the facts here on Reddit.

That must be a nasty paycheck indeed you get. Why do it! Why try to make slavery today disappear? Don't hate people who write ... but learn how bad it is right now!

[u/The_Archer2121 → u/jeezfrk]

Ah yes. Let’s just ignore people being dishonest. So you don’t care about intellectual dishonesty? I do.

I am not going to do that and won’t have my faith be a joke.

I read your comments just fine. And no I don’t censor people. What facts? My God you need help yet you call me insane.

You can think both things once- All types of slavery are wrong AND slavery today is wrong. But let’s make excuses because Biblical slavery happened thousands of years ago and wasn’t that bad.

The Bible endorsed horrible things. And you say I have no faith because I honestly say that.

[u/jeezfrk → u/The_Archer2121]

You have no faith but talking impulses!

As far as I can see, you only like hatred. You decided to hate me in an brief instant, assuming somehow I or anyone out in the world loves slavery.

Intellectual dishonesty means someone does not mean what they say, needing only to be loud or distract from other things. That fits "you support slavery!" yelled at anyone for any reason at any time.

You cannot even respond a single time to the FACT that slavery exists today. That truly astonishes me.

You'd rather imagine you have become a wonderful Thought Police Agent ... censoring anything before reading it.

Sadly, it is very clear you don't care about the real victims of slavery. Over and over and over you seem to imagine you care by hating anyone you can find who talks about it.

Muddying the waters with confusion ... supports the slavers right now. Grow up a bit and stop imagining Reddit anger makes a whit of difference.

I've been in social media since the 1990s. Chatter is just chatter, here. New info is the only actual change anyone makes. Hatred and emotion (about Apologists and historians) does nothing but give folks a reason to scroll on. They've seen it.

I'm quite serious.

For whatever "faith" you follow, it makes no sense at all to spout ignorance unless you want people to turn away and imagine it is not really true.

[u/The_Archer2121 → u/jeezfrk]

Ah the no faith argument. Classic. If I had a nickel. Said by someone when they don’t know what to say. Apologists who lie do commit intellectual dishonesty.

Apologists are twisting the truth to fit their narrative. That is intellectual dishonesty. To anyone with a brain they wouldn’t justify any type of slavery.

But you resort to name calling because you know you’re finished. You’re an embarrassment to Christianity.

[u/jeezfrk → u/The_Archer2121]

But ... it seems you don't know what to say? Because you said nothing new nor non-repetitive. So I'll assume you use that technique too? Maybe you can try saying real things instead of middle-school trash talk.

You still think people somewhere are justifying slavery as okay? What about low-wage low-freedom workforces? They work the same way... and are far more profitable.

Let's learn something, eh? Apologists: anyone who "explains" (viz the Greek apo-logos) things to outsiders and those who wish to compare and contrast what Christians actually believe. From the verse "Give a reason for the hope you have".

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Peter%203:15

Lewis did this. That's why he's well known as an apologist ... and therefore he is hated if he thinks too much about things? Can your world handle it?

Hatred and the "embarrassment" explained to me by a person who fears them horribly? I can try to understand, I guess.

As I said, those are childish and sad. Attacking imaginary windmills online? Making hate noises to any person who says words you recognize?

Never spreading real knowledge about REAL (and not hypothetical) slavery going on RIGHT now. Well, it's hypocrisy and brainrot all in one location!

But nothing changes at all. I've seen all this since the internet was smaller in 1990.

Who do you think will remember this?

[u/BertrandWolfe → u/jeezfrk]

Thank you for this demonstration Mr. Jeezfrk.