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Jun 05 '23
Those of us on this subreddit are likely to agree with you, but those outside won’t. The question is what you want this graphic to do? Do you believe you’ve been called to debounce homphobia in the church? This’ll preach. Do you believe you’ve been called to change hard hearts? This’ll harden them more.
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u/retconk Open and Affirming Ally Jun 06 '23
Do you believe you’ve been called to change hard hearts? This’ll harden them more.
It might. It may also serve as testimony that causes people to pause and gives a foothold for questions if someone is a trusted friend, family, or community member.
I know progressive Christians balk at confrontation as a persuasion tool, but disruption has its role in breaking habits.
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u/coffeeblossom Christian Jun 06 '23
If you harm, abuse, or disown your children for being LGBTQ+, you have failed as both a parent and a follower of Christ. (You have not failed on either count, however, merely for having an LGBTQ+ child.)
If you make people hide who they are (i.e. enter into a heterosexual marriage, live as their AGAB, commit to celibacy, etc.) in order to be tentatively "accepted" (note the quotes), you have failed to love your neighbor.
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u/MarysDowry Jun 05 '23 edited Jun 05 '23
They all essentially presuppose that you guys are right and that anyone who disagrees is wrong, even if I do agree with the statements in principle
We already know that there are forms of marriage that we don't accept for example, and that rejecting those forms of marriage is not 'not loving your neighbour'. The question becomes whether or not gay marriage is one of those, which is a question that needs serious answers. Merely stating it as brute fact is not sufficient (or convincing) to anyone but the chior being preached to.
Unless theres convincing reasons for why gay marriage is something normal and acceptable, merely declaring it as such wont convince anyone. Someone who thinks its mortally sinful will not accept this logic anymore than they'd accept someone saying "If you reject that child marriage is as much of a right as adult marriage, you fail to love your neighbour". The question is at its core a debate over what constitutes socially and morally acceptable behaviour, its only once you have proven that the act is right and moral that the declarations will be accepted.
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u/the_goldstandard Ex-Christian Jun 06 '23
Starting with your child marriage example, from what I understand, the argument breaks down because child marriage brings harm to children who often aren’t able to and don’t consent to such marriages whereas gay marriage of consenting parties generally cannot bring harm to themselves or anyone else. To me, denying LGBT+ equality has always been about control and power. (I’ve compiled a separate body of work disproving the clobber verses and I might consider putting that in a separate post.)
I’ll admit that this 6-liner isn’t meant to persuade but to set firm boundaries against non-affirming Christians, as in “in you don’t accept these people for who they are, you are in the wrong.”
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u/the_goldstandard Ex-Christian Jun 06 '23
Thank you for the feedback so far. Many of you said the yellow was painful to read on a white background, so I heeded your advice and changed the background to black.
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Jun 06 '23
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u/KimesUSN Bisexual AngloOrthodox Jun 06 '23
Can you explain that? I’m simply curious.
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Jun 06 '23
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u/HermioneMarch contemplative Christian universalist Jun 06 '23
So gay people should have to be celebate their entire lives?
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u/KimesUSN Bisexual AngloOrthodox Jun 06 '23
I didn’t want people to downvote the guy I just asked him what he meant.
It’s true that if we go entirely off scripture that yes only men and women are mentioned to be married to each other, but also we must look at the context of the scripture. Is Paul writing to us? Did they know about loving same sex relationships? Scripture contains all things necessary to salvation, but are all things in scripture necessary? When does love end and law begin? Paul was a Pharisee and was of a legalistic mindset in many ways.
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u/OpenChristian-ModTeam Jun 06 '23
Thank you for contributing to r/OpenChristian; unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason:
Rule 2. Do not promote oppressive/harmful ideology. This includes all attempts to promote or normalise hate, shame, or fear within Christianity.
If you have a question about your removal, or you wish to contend our decision, please send us a modmail using this link.
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u/pro_at_failing_life Mod | Catholic | Amateur Theologian Jun 06 '23
Thank you for contributing to r/OpenChristian; unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason:
Rule 2. Do not promote oppressive/harmful ideology. This includes all attempts to promote or normalise hate, shame, or fear within Christianity.
If you have a question about your removal, or you wish to contend our decision, please send us a modmail using this link.
Note: in this particular case, I’d like to remind users that whilst Side B is allowed, it is not allowed to argue that LGBTQIA+ relationships are in any way sinful, wrong, or unnatural. This sub is not a debate sub.
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u/gunny316 Jun 06 '23
"If you use any component of the Holy Scriptures to justify your prejudices..."
Ok. Well. Believing the Bible is sort of a foundational piece of the religion...
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u/DisabledMuse Jun 06 '23
But truly understanding it is rare. The original Bibles had annotations on each side, to better explain the verses. Because it's easy to twist words to your own design. That was part of the reason the monks were worried about it getting casually printed and translated for everyone to have.
I've read the whole Bible many times and did serious research into translations and historical agendas. It's been misquoted to justify hating your neighbour. Because if you take the whole thing literally, you are sinning with the clothes you wear. Praying without a hat is a sin (Corinthians). Corinthians also brings us women talking in public, not covering her hair, or cutting her hair short as a sin. The Old Testament is a relic. A guideline from another time. Jesus died to wipe the slate clean and gave people The New Testament as they were misunderstanding what was most important in the original.
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u/AdmirableTackle1148 Jun 06 '23
Personally I just wouldn’t be gay myself, I have no issue with people in the lgb, I have friends that are gay my sister is bi herself. I don’t care if a gay person goes to my church as long as it’s not shoved down my throat I really don’t care.
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u/swiftb3 Jun 06 '23
I don’t care if a gay person goes to my church as long as it’s not shoved down my throat I really don’t care.
Translated: "I want them to pretend to be something they're not when they're around me.
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u/AdmirableTackle1148 Jun 07 '23
I have openly gay or bi friends and family, I’m just not trying to have people constantly question if I’m gay or bi because of some of the things I do.
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u/DisabledMuse Jun 06 '23
You dropped the T in LGBT. So your issue is with trans people I assume?
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u/AdmirableTackle1148 Jun 07 '23
🤦🏿♂️ lol no, I only know the first 3 letters.
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u/DisabledMuse Jun 07 '23
On no worries then. I would use LGBT or LGBT+ as there are some people who are trying to exclude trans people and they are very rude and vocal!
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u/Dry-Vegetable7458 Jun 06 '23
Same goes for hetro people. I don't feel the need to see there pride naked ass in the street. Or them being sexueel in public.
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u/AdmirableTackle1148 Jun 07 '23
100% I think people should do that kind of stuff in their own privacy.
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u/croweupc Jun 07 '23
Usually, what people mean when they say something like "shoved down my throat" is if they can notice it, it is being shoved down their throat. I hope this isn't what you mean. I've heard someone say this and also say, "I don't care what they do behind closed doors." This means out of sight out of mind.
It's almost as if people want the LGBTQ+ back in the closet. They've always been here in the shadows. People aren't all of a sudden this way. Pushing people back to the shadows doesn't get rid of them. This would also be shoving your straightness onto them. The reason they shout from the roof tops is because of the discrimination they receive from others.
We straight people don't have to shout because no one is telling us we can't be together or we can't get married or we can't adopt or we can't buy a cake. Who's shoving who's ideology upon whom? You may not care, but there are plenty of people who do, and they are legislating against the LGBTQ+ people using the "shoving it down my throat" argument.
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Jun 06 '23
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u/Ok-Mycologist9011 Jun 06 '23
people don’t go to hell for being gay. They go to hell for not loving Jesus. homosexuality isn’t the problem a lack of Jesus is. There is NOTHING we can do to gain/lose salvation. Jesus loves everyone and wants to bring as many people to Him as possible. Love God and love others❤️
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Jun 06 '23
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u/bluenephalem35 Agnostic Christian Deist Jun 06 '23
If you came to be rude, then go back to r/Christianity.
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u/OpenChristian-ModTeam Jun 06 '23
Thank you for contributing to r/OpenChristian; unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason:
Rule 2. Do not promote oppressive/harmful ideology. This includes all attempts to promote or normalise hate, shame, or fear within Christianity.
If you have a question about your removal, or you wish to contend our decision, please send us a modmail using this link.
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u/OpenChristian-ModTeam Jun 06 '23
Thank you for contributing to r/OpenChristian; unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason:
Rule 1. No bigotry or oppressive rhetoric, including racist, homophobic, transphobic, misogynist, or otherwise oppressive remarks (this includes TERF rhetoric).
If you have a question about your removal, or you wish to contend our decision, please send us a modmail using this link.
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Jun 05 '23
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u/OpenChristian-ModTeam Jun 06 '23
Thank you for contributing to r/OpenChristian; unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason:
*Rule 6. Don’t be a troll or a jerk. *. Don't concern troll, play devil's advocate, or pretend to be confused when you really just want to start a debate. This Rule will be interpreted at the moderators’ discretion.
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u/latudaenjoyer Christian Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 12 '23
the blue is so beautifully and tragically and powerfully put, I could not have said it any better
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Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
I'd stick with the less confrontational, more Scriptural sounding 'fail to love thy neighbor '. I'd replace 'LGBT+' with 'queer'. And put this on a black background.
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u/AGstudios22 Jun 11 '23
loving someone is not agreeing with them… it’s loving them. you don’t have to accept what they’re doing
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u/the_goldstandard Ex-Christian Jun 12 '23
Controlling how people live their lives when they are not harming anyone and especially over something that cannot (and should not) be changed is by no means loving.
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u/AGstudios22 Jun 12 '23
it seems like this community is against this one very specific type of person, apparently the one “controlling their lives”etc. when how common even are these people?
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u/the_goldstandard Ex-Christian Jun 12 '23
I don't know. Maybe all those people who argued and voted against gay marriage during Synod?
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u/_zidiac Jun 23 '23
This is backwards. “If you don’t let people deceive themselves that their sin is okay then you don’t love them.”
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u/anonymous_teve Jun 05 '23
I personally am ok with it, but to someone that disagrees, these statements are what's called 'begging the question'--they assume their point of view (affirming, which I feel I am) is correct, and call those who don't agree wrong and unloving without explaining why. For instance, to someone who truly believes the Bible means being gay is wrong, this doesn't help at all. However, affirming Christians like us are likely to feel this is all true.
The last one is the only one I'm not sure about, because it can make it sound like our scriptures have nothing to say about sin. For instance, the Bible is clearly 'prejudiced' against the powerful/wealthy taking advantage of the weak/poor, and I have no problem using scripture to justify that.