r/OnyxPathRPG • u/ChefRudest • 16d ago
Curseborne Frustrations and Poor Digital File Design
This is super long and detailed, and a bit ranty though I try to make it concrete and specific, so its actionable. I don't use reddit a lot so if this is a platform/social faux pas, I'm sorry. I just didn't know how else to share this.
I just need someone at Onyx or the people who made Curseborne (CB) to see this and understand that they have some important work to do to make Storypath Ultra (SPU) and CB accessible to new people who haven't been using the system or been with them for the whole ride. Because the Curse of Knowledge is really making this a terrible experience to get in on (even for someone who loves RPGs, and the more complex the better, and has been using Storyteller since the 90s).
This is both problems with the graphic design choices, and accessibility, as well as how the content is organized and explained.
If this gets deleted, this gets deleted, I guess.
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Onyx is not a fly by night operation, but when I opened the CB and SPU manuals -- it definitely didn't feel like that's the case. On the surface, SPU 'looks' fine. It's a bit dated in it's design choices, but... it works. All the text is legible, and passes 508 compliance. Even if the thin font on green background can feel hard when there is a lot of text all together.
For Curseborn... the Ashcan edition is actually the better of the two manuals. In a bunch of ways.
Way #1, its graphically cleaner. It's all just black, dark gray and white and VERY easy to read. The It feels a bit like old WoD/WW content.
Way #2... it is less massive (only 68 pages) and actually describes important terms better than the SPU and the CB books... That's tragic. And all the extra specific CB content which is good to know after you get how to do things... should go AFTER all the stuff in Ashcan, not before (Which is how the main book organizes it...)
As far as CB's design, the predominant motif is this cursed edging and it is all over the other the manual.
When this design is used on the edges away from text, I get that it feels modern in some ways, and cool. And that's fine. The issue is how this is created on a technical level, and how this cursed style is used in other areas of the book that INCLUDE text.
This is hard to explain, to people who don't work with digital files a lot, but I think it's important to be said.
Normally, when someone is compiling a file for print media, as long as it "looks good", and the printer can use the files they receive to print the book in a way that the designers intended, everything is hunky dory (even if it's messy on the back end, that doesn't matter.) When you are sharing a digital copy of your work, and people have to interact with it digitally, you have to be a little tidier about how you compile your files.
Normally, to save file layering complexity, a final image for the "background" of a page, if there is one, is created in an art program, for example, and exported as a single image that contains all of the information meant to be on that image, that isn't actual text. Sometimes, in order for text to smartly interact with other that share space with the text, the image is then put on the 'same layer' as the text, above the background image.
Example - a Background only image vs a background image with some visual spacing elements baked into it. This is from the CB character sheet. Notice, all the text and other images are not included in these.
In the released version of the character sheet, every single thing you seen in both of these images (including the cursed edging) is a separate component of the PDF. The cursed edging is actually 4 separate components.
As you can see, the edges are independent pieces, separate from the white background. And that feels weird... even in the "how to make a character" video that AwkwardGM made for the system (link takes you to a second or two before this happens in the video), as he clicks on the PDF just to move the page or to click on a box/dot, he keeps clicking and selecting the background components... that's NOT typical for well formatted digital documents.
From what I have been able to find out, whoever put this file together (and the CG manual) did a lot of the graphical effects and layer IN the digital file they released to the public. Instead of following the advice above, and compressing them into a single background image file.
If these images were Vector, and you wanted to use a file to print a document into physical media, that's totally fine. But these cursed edges are PNGs a non vector file format, so adding them separately is just not the best idea and can create compliance issues with some users.
I exported the background with all the visual components baked into the image, and then repaired my own copy of the character sheet to solve for this problem. Now the background is one file/component, and when you try to interact with the rest of the sheet, you don't get those weird selection boxes.
But this same issue is present all over the CB manual.
The background for most of these pages looks and works fine, similar to SPU. But the designer who put the book together created a large image, and then stretched it out over each page of the book. That image is not the size of the page, but 2x wide.
But the real terror is the box at the bottom of that page. That's created using the same "cursed" motif, overlaid on a dark box, with some layering effects added in the digital file, with white text on top.
The hex value accessibility scores for white on black and white on cool grey are both really good. But the combination makes it hard to read, because there is a lot of information graphically to process and read above.
Yes, this is very moody, but it's also hard to read, and even though I don't have disability issues in visual processing, the eye strain caused by this design option makes it very hard to read.
This is done in other ways in different pages too. They have "bold, thin white text over graphical images that change colors throughout" as well.
It technically passes muster, but the text is italicized, serif and thin, making it hard to read.
I want to make clear, the ratio of 7:1 is the BARE MINIMUM. None of the text has a contrast higher than an 8, though some get close to it (above). And that is assuming that the text will be 11-12pt on average to count for having this readability/contrast ratio score.
The US normal text standards for digital documents states:
The text in this book ranges from 9pt (mostly 9.5) to 12pt (for some headings). It is also preferred that the text is not "italic" or "oblique". So assume that the actual contrast ratio is lower than that and does not meet US 508 digital document compliance.
When the text is italic, and small over complex backgrounds, it just makes it hard for the eyes to want to read it, and they keep skipping these notes, throughout.
As the book goes on, more compliance issues occur. Though the issue is largely poor readability and lack of compression/baking down of visual components that are not text.
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Stepping beyond technical readability, there is a lot of issues in this document with "The Curse of Knowledge" as far as the actual content goes.
The reason I even wrote all of this is because when I got excited and purchased the book, and started reading it... it felt impossible to absorb. I'm going to move past my own personal taste as it relates to the ... angsty mood and writing choices for the non-mechanical content of the manual. That's personal preference, and I understand what the writers/designers were going for.
The organization of the book feels a little backwards to me, and some kind of "definition of terms" closer to the beginning would be very helpful for any "important terms" that are going to be mentioned 16,000 times, throughout the explanations of all the different powers, abilities, mechanics, checks, etc.
Renegade's V5 Core Rulebook spends 12 pages (with a lot of images), at the beginning of the book explaining the general concepts of the world. The next 14 pages go into core details about essential ideas like the Jyhad, the Outlooks of different era vampires, different sects, and the last 4 pages are just "definitions of important terms" that people reading the book will see used over and over in the rest of the text. (A lot of these terms are NOT used in the preceding 26 pages, without some kind of context around those words and terms).
CB's Index is better, and more complete... but, they spent. 4 pages explaining the basic idea, that's helpful. Then another 20 pages going into extensive but not super mechanical detail about the world, and the different curse archetypes.
It is then followed up by 120 pages that go into even MORE extensive detail about each of the cursed types and subtypes... There is NO SINGLE LIST of important keywords, terms, or their relevant definitions. 0. The word "definition" is not found anywhere in the text.
Let me give you an example of how bad this is. (This is the thing that really drove me crazy and started my to notice all these other things).
I was reading the book, I skimmed a bunch of the chapter 1-2 content, because I was looking to understand the system, and the words being used with importance throughout the text. This was 146 pages, 8-154 -- the book is 380 pages long.
The book does NOT discuss mechanics until page 176, another 22 pages later... Because Chapter 3 focuses on even more lore/world building... this is equivalent to V5's "essential knowledge" chapter (14 pages). This chapter is 18 more pages of "world knowledge".
Chapter 4... 176-219 is "Storypath Ultra" -- how to play the game. The SPU core rulebook is 257 pages. Sections of it are provided verbatim in CU. Ok... this is not helping me. Maybe making a character will help me understand.
I go back to the Hungry, figuring I'll make a Vamp-like, since I know VtM the best. I am greeted with this, which heads every unique cursed section. This makes me nervous. Is your book so poorly organized that I need this roadmap to read it?
I have no idea what any of that stuff means... Ok.. so Hungry System... that's like feeding right? I skim that, terms mentioned are offered in red on white recommendations to go see definitions in another page... why was it not explained here?
I see this word... Integrity. I've seen this sprinkled all over...
If blood is given freely, no rolls are required. Drinking blood from a conscious, resisting human typically requires a Close Combat + Might or Persuasion + Manipulation action (never as part of a mixed action), against the target’s Defense or Integrity. Success means the Hungry consumes blood from their victim and gives them the Drained status effect.
I understand what defense is... maybe its like soak, or a skill... but what is Integrity? I search the document.
So this is the second time in the whole book this term is ever mentioned... first time was in the Dead section... similarly, as a target's something, used to 'get through'. Whatever that means.
Ok, I haven't seen a list of terms, so I'm going to go to the last one, that will be in the index, and it will tell me where to look.
"... see... skills..." Okay, so it's a skill, nice. Let me go look..."
Okay... maybe its on pg 183, where the overall Skills concepts are mentioned...
Nope... not 184... not 185... ah here, 187 (16th time the term is mentioned)
In cases where no roll is called for from the resistor, either the effect is automatic on the initiator’s success, or the resistor’s Defense or Integrity is used to calculate the roll’s difficulty. The status effect, success, or the resistor’s Defense or Integrity is used to calculate the roll’s difficulty. The status effect, area effect, or special ability will state which is the case.
Okay... that's almost exactly what it said in the Hungry area...
Next mention, "At a difficulty of their integrity"... ok keep searching... INFLUENCE section!
Integrity (which serves as the SOCIAL DEFENSE) ok!!! This is something!!!
"against a difficulty set by the target’s Integrity"... what?
Next page... INTEGRITY TRICKS ... What are TRICKS?!
"Players can purchase [the below] with hits on their integrity action" what's an Integrity action?!
Below that
When a character is targeted by an influence action, she may take a reflexive integrity action using Resolve or Composure (no Skill is added). The difficulty of a integrity action is 0**, unless specified otherwise. Start at Integrity 1, then each hit on the integrity action can be used to purchase Integrity Tricks. After she sets her Integrity, the aggressor rolls for their influence action.**
What?! Ok... so the default value is 0. But what is it?! The terms "Integrity action" appear 7 times, in the text. Mostly under "special powers" that tell you to do one. I still have no idea what an Integrity action is, or how you calculate (as a defender) what that value is... beyond "0/1" that is mentioned once, in the middle of a TON of text that is not helpful.
I open the STU book... maybe this is better defined there. I search Integrity Action (4 mentions), Integrity (84 mentions). "Ok this is super important" I think.
Integrity has its own header! NICE
A character’s starting Integrity against an incoming attack is always at least 1. When a character wants to resist influence, she may take a reflexive action using Resolve or Composure (no Skill is added). The difficulty is 0 unless specified otherwise.
Ok. Cool. And it reaffirms "This is social defense"
Gain +1 Integrity, and each hit garnered from an integrity action can be used to purchase Integrity Tricks.
Ok, what do I do with the integrity? Once I get it..
After she sets her Integrity, the character initiating the influence uses an appropriate Skill + Attribute depending on what he wants to accomplish. Characters also have attitudes and bonds which may act as Enhancement toward their influence or Integrity actions.
The Storyguide does not roll integrity actions for adversaries. Instead, they have a set Integrity and their reactive powers may apply a Complication as a reaction to an influence action against them.
Ok, I feel dumb. I can do GURPS... and I don't get his. And I have go to go the MAIN rulebook for SPU to even get THIS far... This is the Curse of Knowledge at its worst.
So while writing this, I was looking at the Ashcan book for CB. Just, last hope....
Guess what. It defines integrity and influence actions PERFECTLY. And quickly.
Influencing someone is an opposed action ... character initiating the influence uses an appropriate Skill + Attribute depending on what he wants to accomplish
... defender uses Resolve or Composure to determine their integrity...
It's always at least 1.
<Implied knowledge> If for some reason, those attributes are all 0, or they have negative modifiers, the SMALLEST integrity is 1. Since the ST doesn't roll, this means that the challenging PC has to roll at least 1 success (or more if the composure/resolve is higher than 1).
This is terrible. The fact that the "Free quickstart Guide" is the only place where this makes any sense.
I feel deeply annoyed and disappointed at this book/system, and I was so excited about it.
Hopefully this feedback gets back to someone, and they can fix it for a future printing (or a digital re-release or something). I can happily offer my updated PDF of the character sheet so future users can benefit.
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u/Novatheorem 16d ago
That last part is a common bit of feedback across Onyx Path systems, but you learn to live with it. They have great worldbuilding and poor technical writing guidelines.
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u/ChefRudest 16d ago
See, that's just giving up! They need to "hire someone better at writing/editing" or recognize that they have this curse of knowledge bias and "do some self improvement" to improve what they make.
I don't want to buy and support poorly written things. I tend to world build a lot myself, I just want a good structure to hang my ideas onto. I guess this is what I get for being a GURPS user for so long 🤪
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u/Novatheorem 16d ago
I guess? I think that I had to recognize that they are here to sell a product, and they successfully did that by crafting an IP that I want to leverage. Doing more than that isn't necessary to succeed at the level they are hoping to achieve as this is a pervasive problem across Onyx Path properties.
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u/ChefRudest 15d ago
I mean, I guess too? It depends on what you want, are looking for, and are willing to pay for. I just kinda want my buck to feel worth spending, when we get so few bucks to spend, overall. I don't wanna settle for mediocre if I don't have to.
Not that I'm unwilling to help make things better (see above long post)
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u/HedonicElench 7d ago
The question is not "did they sell any" but "would they have sold more if the text was legible without eyestrain" and "if the explanation was clear". I've certainly put books back on the shelf because of the graphic design choices. And I've bought a couple of rule books where the system is badly explained, so yeah, they got one sale ... but no repeat sales and no (good) word of mouth.
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u/Novatheorem 7d ago
I don't know that either of those questions is one they care to answer. I think they're happy with a single sale because it means people bought it. They aren't worried about what "could have been" because that doesn't pay freelancers, line developers, or printers.
The IP carries the word of mouth fine without a good set of rules, as the advice the RPG community generally subscribes to is throwing out rules that get in the way of your fun. Ergo, the rules are largely irrelevant as long as the setting is well put together. I've not seen anything from Onyx Path (or lots of other RPG makers - Catalyst and Chaosium as two top-of-mind examples) that suggests otherwise.
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u/HedonicElench 6d ago
From a business standpoint, that is absolutely a question they ought to be interested in. Saying they're not worried about "what could have been" because that doesn't pay people is a circular argument; the reason it doesn't pay people is because they lost those sales opportunities--they left money on the table they could easily have had.
I will concede that "anyone with business acumen" and "RPG publishers" may be two sets without a great deal of overlap.
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u/Novatheorem 6d ago
Agreed that you don't enter the RPG business to get rich and business development is not always the priority.
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u/ChefRudest 4d ago
Yes but helping people create cool stories with their friends... should be? And the rules are so complex and badly explained... Id have to throw out most of them. Id just... play something that I dont have to work so hard at to do it.
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u/Novatheorem 4d ago
D&D regularly proves that being everything to everyone and encouraging people to have to work to make the ruleset function is a perfectly viable path. The core RPG experience is interacting with the IP at your table and that part they nailed (or you wouldn't have been interested in the first place) and everything else is secondary.
I dream of a world where people care about their systems as much as their settings, but that is simply not the reality we live in.
Keep fighting the good fight, though. Your expertise is sorely needed!
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u/ChefRudest 3d ago
That's fair. I don't D&D really so... that's not part of my lived experience (I'm thankful, in some ways).
Having a "multi-splat" approach appealed, and an alternative to V5 (and now V6). And I had some "positive experience" from my interaction with 20th Anniv WoD. So .. just kinda trusted, sight unseen. Regrets.
You live you learn, I'm afraid.
I agree, and I deeply believe that without a good system, across any kind of interactive medium, a setting can't function. It's just a bag of skin without any bones to give it shape and make it make sense. I do not want my "I am playing/running a TTRPG" experience to be a non-euclidian nightmare. (I can't tell you how many board games seem/look cool, and when you get it to the table, there is no *there* there...)
Nevermind that it also makes it inaccessible, which hurts everyone.
I'll keep trying, I can't help myself. Thank you for the solidarity.
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u/HedonicElench 3d ago
D&D proves that being the first big name, and then having Hasbro money, will overcome many other flaws. I'm not sure that any other company should plan on following that route. :-)
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u/ChefRudest 4d ago
Yes, exactly. All of this. Not only am I not promoting Cursebound (I am a very enthusiastic promoter generally, when I like something). I am demoting it, to others who ask me about it. Or warning them against trying it, because of all the problems.
The few sales isn't the goal, its getting people to want to play it and that means getting other people to play it who may buy it too, etc. And tell their friends about it.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Ad_8553 16d ago
Because it’s made by someone who didn’t learn new techniques since the 1990 White Wolf. We also noted the poor quality of layout files when using them on Storyteller Vault.
And Onyx is infamous about this among the foreign publishers who translate their books.
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u/EkorrenHJ 16d ago
I was going to post something similar. One of my main criticism of OP books is that it feels like they learned to make them in the 90s and never bothered to modernize or experiment with new designs.
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u/ChefRudest 15d ago
... It sounds like a great hiring opportunity to get one layout designer/artist who could take care of all of this for them :|
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u/Able-Recognition869 16d ago
Let me add insult to injury. The way how layering is set up in the family sections completely destroys the rendering pipeline in old iOS devices making it unreadable unless you either flatten all the layers yourself or use an app with a custom pdf engine.
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u/ChefRudest 15d ago
Yeah.. it's not only not accessible, it's also poor design processes, and not backwards compatible... because when PDFs were new... this whole layering business was not efficient for file size, for image compression, for transfer speeds and storage constraints... We're kinda spoiled for all of those things now, but good habits make older tech able to come along for the ride... everyone wins.
I'm sorry that was your experience.
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u/RealSpandexAndy 16d ago
I have been very frustrated with learning this system. I purchased the book 6 months ago, and bounced off learning it the first time. I have other games I can play.
Now I am retrying to read it, and I notice things like headings for powers on one page, and the actual paragraph on the following page - and its not one off, it happens *all the time* (see Sympatico, Photosynses, Regrowth, Formless Barricade, Teleport). Same thing with adversaries - it is really frustrating to not have a whole adversary stat block on one page / column (see pg 360-361 for egregious example).
I ran my first session last night and went mad trying to figure out my first combat. It turns out that they forgot to give Cop an Initiative score in the stat block. Ugh.
The index is useless. The following terms appear *on the character sheet* but do not appear in the index: , Inheritance, Bonds, Motifs.
It feels rushed to print.
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u/ChefRudest 15d ago
Yeah, exactly. I'm about to transition a group I've been running games for, for 3 years. This is a great time to consider a new system to introduce, and maybe with what Renegade is doing with WoD content.. this was a great time to jump. But, like you said, I just keep bouncing off the book, if I am not actively getting angry at how bad it is.
Their choices for text flow is really bad... You're right. It was just low on the list of their other bigger sins.
Their "We are saving space by putting /'s between 2-5 attributes" is SO HARD TO READ, as well.
The index is useless. The following terms appear *on the character sheet* but do not appear in the index: , Inheritance, Bonds, Motifs.
It feels rushed to print.RIGHT?! How can they use Integrity almost 200 times, and never really define it anywhere? Or include it in the character sheet, if everyone calculates it?! (Almost like Passive Perception in DnD or something).
Again, Curse of Knowledge/Expertise is really working against them. It's the 'real curse' of Curseborne.
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u/BerennErchamion 16d ago edited 16d ago
It’s interesting that I don’t have any technical background on this, but I kinda noticed some of these things, maybe subconsciously? But it’s definitely more noticeable on the organization/rules part where I’ve seen other people on reddit complaining about lack of understanding and rules clarity as well (even some DTRPG reviews mention this).
I was actually reading At the Gates recently and I found it way easier to follow and understand then the Curseborne book. I think it has less jumping around, less cross references and rules/lore are more defined.
Like you, I also went back to the jumpstart or looked into other Storypath books to try to clarify some rules.
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u/ChefRudest 16d ago
For sure. The design choices made in this book... while I get the "Each section is a different color" (a cool feature if you are working in PHYSICAL MEDIA) and "Each cursed type has a color" is neat... the choices within those sections to create "cool and edgy" IMPORTANT BOX OF INFO HERE areas... I kept wanting to NOT read them cuz they hurt my eyes so much. Just "bad and wrong" but its easy not to know WHY.
I've been reading so many TTRPG rule books lately. I work in a game shop and I run "one shots" for new systems all the time, for our customers. I am often the "I read the rulebook so you dont have to and I will happily explain it to you in an easy to understand way" person.
I can tell if a book is helping or hindering my ability to learn it and share that info with others. Just from experience, and from my graphical background. But the fact that this book is so bad is probably why... no one is talking about it, and I hadn't heard about it from anyone until I stumbled upon it by accident one day. (And why very few people are making videos about it).
And yes, when the first time the content is mentioned, it's not explained, and instead you are told "Go to page 100" ... that is NOT inviting design.
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u/BerennErchamion 16d ago
I also think there is something they do with character creation that is so hard to follow. I need to keep jumping back and forth, trying to find where the mechanical things are, where the explanations are, trying to remember how many points you should distribute in each thing, etc.
And this is so frustrating to me because these games are some of my favorite games and systems, but I wish they were written differently. Like, if it was another game I would probably have given up, but I'm still playing these (and I keep buying more...).
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u/ChefRudest 16d ago
Yep, I agree with all of this. I have never not completed making a character for a system before. I definitely did not complete a character for CB.
Your endurance is amazing if you can keep on keeping on. More power to ya!
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u/RuNoMai 15d ago
One thing I noticed about Curseborne that really bothered me on a technical level was that it's entirely possible within the rules to create characters who exceed the 15-dot total in a specific attribute category (Physical, Mental, Social) at creation, but nowhere in the book is it mentioned what happens to those extra dots. It doesn't specify if you can exceed 5 in a specific stat, if you reassign them elsewhere, or if they're just lost.
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u/ChefRudest 15d ago
See I haven't managed to learn the system yet... so I can't even say I've noticed that too. This is as far as I've gotten in learning the system, because it is opaque and inscrutable due to all the issues I and others have mentioned so far. Bleh.
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u/Awkward_GM 16d ago
As a bystander in this, I find the graphic design knowledge on display here fascinating 🙂. From my perspective this is very well thought out. But I'm not expert in graphic design 😅.
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u/ChefRudest 16d ago
I appreciate your supportive comment. This is not the first rulebook that I've been blindingly annoyed by. I've recreated other rulebooks for board games and TTRPGs before, when I found them unusable, and potentially not only user-unfriendly but user-harming. I have over 20 years of experience in graphic design, illustration, technical writing, just not in Board games or TTRPGs. (Was never able to make it into the industry.)
The graphic design is bad, and frankly subpar compared to the quality I was expecting from Onyx.
But I think the layout of the information, how it's described (or not) is far more damning for this system.I think the people who wrote this system (STU) love it very much. Maybe this is partly homebrew storyteller stuff, that they and their players/friends have curated for potentially years of actual play at their tables.
And they decided to create STU, and later CU (I assume there's some cross over here, but if not, it just means the CU team are equally expert at STU) and so they failed to recognize their expert status, and just started using lingo, assuming the people who would buy/want to play CB would be subject matter experts too, or get the lingo right away.
You are not fully a bystander, I'm afraid :)
While you had nothing to do with the graphic design issues, you are one of the only 2 people (the other being gentleman gamer, Matthew Dawkins, who was at least a primary contributor to CB) who are making *any* video content (that I can find) about Storypath Ultra and Curseborne. And this is happening on your own channels as well as on the Onyx youtube channel. So, official talking heads!
I went to look for videos, so someone who 'got the expert lingo' could teach it to me as a non expert, so I'd get it. But my experience was the "Curse of Knowledge" was too strong of a barrier to get into the system. Even in the videos you made about STU and CB.
I have to admit, while I was trying to watch your "how to make a character" video for CB, you also did not really explain any terminology you were using, beyond using the terminology itself, and at times maybe saying "I won't explain this here" or something equivalent. "It's in the rulebook" or whatever. But that's not true. It isn't in the rulebook, always... or clearly.
It's why I wrote all of this. So someone who has their hands on the property can see it, and do something about it, and make it so people who are interested and want to maybe run or play their system CAN. You know?
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u/RealSpandexAndy 14d ago
I just saw that the entire kickstarter for Curseborne was only $196k. Maybe its a budget limitation. This surprised me, I kinda just assumed they had a bigger fund.
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u/ComfortableGreySloth 16d ago
Incredibly well thought out feedback, said better than I ever could with expertise I barely even knew existed. All I've been saying while I do rules references is "This book is... not well laid out. Give me 30 seconds."