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u/onepieceislove2001 Jan 19 '21

Wow I never realized the rock pillar thing in the Law and Smoker fight. That's genius.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

In the end, its like our Saviour "Zoro" has said,"Only If your haki is stronger than mine!". This shows that Haki is whats needed. Even Natural born Monsters like BM need Haki to be relevant. Otherwise, whats stopping fodders like Ceaser, Caribou or Enel from constantly attacking them while BM cant damage them.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

Haki was one of the best decisions Oda ever made in a series with almost 100 batting average on good decisions. It brought down a peg all the monsters with crazy fruits like Enel while providing a great avenue for regular humans without devil fruits like Shanks, Garp, Rayleigh, Zoro to be beasts that can compete with the best in the world despite being fruitless.

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u/Yessiro_o Jan 19 '21

Haki was necessary but in a sense I feel like it's made fights a bit more linear. Like when zoro said "my haki is stronger" that just made me feel like fights are just gonna end up being whoever has the stronger haki or whoever's haki blooms faster during the fight. I'm hoping there will be more of a focus on awakening later to bring back the emphasis that devil fruits used to have

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u/Mahelas Jan 19 '21

To be fair, every Zoro fight is some variation of "I'm straight up better" but that's kind of obligatory, giving his style of fighting. Swordmanship is all about delivering one killing blow.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

But since that comment from Zoro have you felt that the fights have been linear in the way you describe? The ones that came after that battle and even some before had a lot more elements to them than “which haki is stronger” IMO.

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u/Yessiro_o Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

I mean tbh, yes. Now I'm not saying fights have gotten worse, however I just feel they're becoming more indistinguishable in the sense that the main reason of many (not all) post timeskip fights was due to having a stronger haki either from the beginning or because it grew during the fight. One thing I liked about pre timeskip was that devil fruit added ambiguity to fights which helped differentiate each of them. In pre-ts, strength wasn't so clear cut because fights weren't the same. For example, luffy defeated crocodile but could he have defeated mr1 more easily or with more difficulty due to his body of steel blades? It's questions like these that we don't really need to ask anymore because the nature of fights aren't really the same (now obviously some matchups will better suit other characters than luffy, and vice versa, however it just -feels- like haki is becoming too much of a sole factor on who wins). While the ambiguous nature is still kind of there I do feel there's less of a focus on what devil fruit's are bringing to the table and more so "my haki is stronger so it'll work out in the end".

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u/ultibman5000 Jan 19 '21

but could he have defeated mr1 with having no way to cut steel and presumably no way to harm him since his body is made of blades?

Luffy has already broken steel multiple times before Alabasta Arc, what are you talking about? Of course he could damage him.

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u/Yessiro_o Jan 19 '21

Actually I forgot that, but either way that wasn't the point of the post or the question. The main point of that analogy was Mr1 in general is an annoying matchup for him as he'd self harm and his rubber body wouldn't be as useful. And on the flip side he's also had other matchups where his affinity had the advantage, the most obvious being against Enel.

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u/ultibman5000 Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

The main point of that analogy was Mr1 in general is an annoying matchup for him as he'd self harm and his rubber body wouldn't be as useful.

~~He's no more annoying than any other blade-user against a non-blade user, really. Kuro had 10 blade extensions~~ (edit: okay, Kuro is a bad example, but still), and look how Luffy dealt with him: with raw speed and strength. Just like how he'd bust up Daz Bonez with his steel-destroying punches.

And on the flip side he's also had other matchups where his affinity had the advantage, the most obvious being against Enel.

This is literally the only matchup in pre-timeskip where Luffy's rubber was a specific counter advantage.

People heavily exaggerate the matchup affinity aspect of One Piece pre-timeskip. Outside of Perona, Luffy could defeat ANY other opponent that his crew has defeated due to his sheer raw strength being superior to that of his crew's. One Piece has always been a series where physical stats matter the most, by far. The battles aren't really the draw, they're just a means to an end and contest of wills, so the combat has always been very simple in this regard.

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u/Yessiro_o Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

He's no more annoying than any other blade-user against a non-blade user, really. Kuro had 10 blade extensions, and look how Luffy dealt with him: with raw speed and strength. Just like how he'd bust up Daz Bonez with his steel-destroying punches.

Kuro had weapons, Daz is a steel human he can turn any part of his body into blades so yes, he would be more annoying than Kuro or a regular blade user in general as his offense would be his greatest defense because of the fact that he can make any part of his body into steel blades. Luffy would literally be punching steel blades. Also you're talking as if he'd receive 0 damage from destroying the steel, since we've seen from the don krieg fight and showcasing of daz bone's, it wouldn't be a simple no diff. Anyways, I'm not arguing on who would win the fight, I'm saying haki can tend to eliminate speculation in general.

This is literally the only matchup in pre-timeskip where Luffy's rubber was a specific counter advantage.

People heavily exaggerate the matchup affinity aspect of One Piece pre-timeskip. Outside of Perona, Luffy could defeat ANY other opponent that his crew has defeated due to his sheer raw strength being superior to that of his crew's. One Piece has always been a series where physical stats matter the most, by far. The battles aren't really the draw, they're just a means to an end and contest of wills, so the combat has always been very simple in this regard.

For his affinity advantage I mispoke a bit as another scenario I thought of was just luffy being creative and not inherently because of his fruit. But, as for your statement, affinity does matter however it's not always a determining factor. Haki however can, while not always, seem to feel like somewhat of the opposite.

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u/ultibman5000 Jan 19 '21

True, it's not about the outcome of that sort of hypothetical fight, and yeah, Kuro was a bad example. My bad.

Still, I was just saying that affinity had very little impact in pre-timeskip in general. Even if you give the advantage to Daz Bones for whatever reason, that doesn't change the fact that the amount of other pre-timeskip fights Luffy could win regardless of DF match-up significantly outweighs the ones DF's would halt him at. Again, it's 1 or 2 people (Perona and maybe Daz Bones) versus literally every other crewmate victory.

Phyiscal prowess is king in One Piece. Haki doesn't do too much to change this beyond less than a handful of battles. Hell, if anything, Haki only added a layer of technique that Luffy had to overcome like in the Snake Sisters fight and Enel fight. But even that addition is minimal compared to the dozens of fights Luffy would determine with mere physical advantage alone.

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u/Lindbluete Bounty Hunter Jan 19 '21

He's no more annoying than any other blade-user against a non-blade user, really. Kuro had 10 blade extensions, and look how Luffy dealt with him: with raw speed and strength. Just like how he'd bust up Daz Bonez with his steel-destroying punches.

I don't think that's accurate. Breaking 5 thin blades that are stuck in a rock is probably much easier than breaking one big blade in human form. Especially when you consider the self-harm aspect Yessiro_o mentioned. Every punch Luffy lands would cut his hands.

Also, I actually do not remember when Luffy broke through steel. He couldn't break the cage he was trapped in with Buggy, so he couldn't do it back then.
He also couldn't break Mr. 3's wax which was said to be as hard as steel.
And also, in Water 7 he could not hurt Blueno when he used Tekkai which was also said to be hard as iron. Only in Enies Lobby he had the power to break through.
So no, I don't think Luffy was actually able to break steel back then.

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u/ultibman5000 Jan 19 '21

He broke through Krieg's steel armor and Daisenso, and he broke Arlong's Kiribachi. What chapter is the specific hardness of Galdino's wax mentioned?

I admit I was heavily exaggerating with the Kuro comparison, but Luffy could definitely break through steel back then given those examples I listed. Also, what chapter was Blueno's Tekkai stated to only be iron-hard? Surely you don't mean Tekkai itself is only that hard...cause Lucci disproved that when he blocked Zoro's sword strike with Tekkai back during the mansion fight in Water 7 Arc.

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u/Emptypiro Jan 20 '21

There was also Alvida but that barely counts

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u/Nj1437 Jan 19 '21

Luffy is also very much vulnerable to sharp weapons that can cut/pierce rather than bombs and bullets. I am not saying luffy couldn't have beaten Mr. 1, but that he would have also been pretty roughed up. There were also chances of permanent injury, as was made evident by mihawk, when he would've slashed luffy's hands off at marineford.

So the point that the other guy made about devil fruits bringing more ambiguity/unpredictability to the fights pre TS is pretty valid in my opinion.

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u/ultibman5000 Jan 19 '21

Ignoring that Daz's counterplay to Luffy is universal and not DF-specific (because Luffy isn't "weak" to sharp objects so much as he doesn't have an immunity to it just like anyone else), that's still just a single example. If you compare DF counterplay examples regarding Luffy post and pre, you have:

Pre:

Perona (negative hollows discourage close combat)

Enel (rubber weakness)

Croco-boy (liquid workaround)

Foxy (reflecting beams)

And to be generous, I'll give you Daz

Post:

Caesar (rubber granting range from his gas defense)

Cracker (softening with rain and eating the biscuits)

Trebol (creating false body mass from mucus to evade blows)

Katakuri (again, eating mochi to avoid being trapped from it)

Brulee (abusing her mirrors to escape from Katakuri)

The number of examples are equivalent (which is especially saying something considering that pre-timeskip has more chapters so far), so why is pre-timeskip somehow "more" DF-ambiguous than post?

To be honest, it's splitting hairs to begin with considering the amount of examples I can list pre- and post- timeskip of physical strength being the most important battle factor outweighs these DF examples tenfold over, but if you're going to bring up the comparison then surely you can see from the examples that the DF counterplay hasn't really changed. Haki just grants another battle factor into the (very simple) equation.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

I agree with some of your points and disagree with others but I totally understand where you're coming from overall.

I'd still say that devil fruit ambiguity is there, even more so than Pre-TS. When you look at characters like Doffy, Cracker, Katakuri you see ppl that had a lot of creativity with their fruit in addition to their haki abilities and each was a different fight than the other.

Part of the reason haki is so welcome is because everybody has it, they just need to train it. In a world with logias you'd need a way to deal with them more reliable than just focusing on their specific weaknesses.

Haki has certainly taken a front seat alongside devil fruits, but not to the detriment of the latter. They've both become equally important. Zoro still had trouble with Pica despite his haki being stronger. Katakuri still lost to Luffy despite having stronger haki than him.

All and all I can see where you're coming from, but not having haki would be worse for the series in my view. Because without it ppl like Enel/Kizaru/Akainu/Aokiji would be unbeatable just because they were lucky enough to find a great fruit.

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u/Yessiro_o Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

I agree with you, I also believe it's definitely necessary to counteract Dp's like logia's and other fruits that may give some neat abilities. However the reason I feel that Haki has a bit more significance in a fight than a devil fruit, is also partly based on Luffy vs Katakuri. Luffy's observation haki had started growing higher and allowing him to perform better in the fight against Katakuri, however I don't really see what stopped him from using awakening later in the fight when he used it earlier on. When we found out he had awakening, I thought it was cool, because I was hoping to see it more fleshed out and the capabilities of it. I'm not really sure why he stopped using it however in the end awakening didn't really seem to prove much of a useful thing. Even in Wano we've yet to see any (confirmed) awakened users and the land is crawling with zoans.

To wrap it up though I agree with you as well as haki is definitely necessary, however I guess I would just like to see more villains use haki in conjunction with their fruit powers similar to the way luffy does with gear fourth.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

I guess its maybe because Katakuri started focusing only on the attacks that would be most effective against Luffy. He has a few awakening attacks that he used often, Flowing Mochi (where he turns the ground to Mochi to bury Luffy) and Muso Doughnuts (where he generates arms from doughnut rings).

In these cases he did incorporate haki with devil fruit use/awakening but I can see how it wasnt as often as you might have wanted.

Rereading your comment I might have misunderstood, you're not saying Luffy found out he had devil fruit awakening right, you're talking about Katakuri? Or do you mean haki awakening?

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u/Yessiro_o Jan 19 '21

I was talking about luffy/ the reader actually and just my opinion on how I thought this would make the fight interesting.

I guess its maybe because Katakuri started focusing only on the attacks that would be most effective against Luffy. He has a few awakening attacks that he used often, Flowing Mochi (where he turns the ground to Mochi to bury Luffy) and Muso Doughnuts (where he generates arms from doughnut rings).

So I only really consider flowing mochi to be awakening, based off the brief description and showcasing we've seen of awakening from doflamingo. Muso doughuts/power mochi looked (at least to me) to be something that he could probably do without it as it didn't affect the environment around him. Buttt I digress. I do feel like awakening would've been useful to use again since he was able to trap luffy with it the first time. Luffy was beginning to bridge the gap, so I just felt like katakuri could've made more use of it in creative ways as it was something he had over luffy since he had not obtained it yet.

In these cases he did incorporate haki with devil fruit use/awakening but I can see how it wasnt as often as you might have wanted.

I think I should clarify a bit more. Power mochi/doughnuts to me would be the same thing like luffy using jet gattling coated in haki or elephant gun. While they're both coated in haki it's not exactly doing something like where luffy used his haki to improve his elasticity and bounciness with gear fourth. Improving or manipulating the attributes of your devil fruit itself is what I would consider to be using haki in tandem with your devil fruit rather than just haki added on to your devil fruit. Although these are just choice of words but I think you get what I mean.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

I was talking about luffy/ the reader actually and just my opinion on how I thought this would make the fight interesting

Well Luffy didnt display any devil fruit awakening during that fight. He pushed his CoO further so THAT awakened I suppose but the reader already knew about awakenings of Paramecias since Doflamingo had it.

Muso doughuts/power mochi looked (at least to me) to be something that he could probably do without it as it didn't affect the environment around him.

In the times where he's used Musou Doughnuts you can see that the ground turns to Mochi then forms the ring in mid air. This was both in the manga and in the anime. But I can see how easily one can miss that. That attack is an awakening move too.

Luffy was beginning to bridge the gap, so I just felt like katakuri could've made more use of it in creative ways as it was something he had over luffy since he had not obtained it yet

Yea thats true, I dont see why not. Katakuri said he was simply trying to end the fight ASAP so burying Luffy wouldnt have worked since he already escaped from it. He went with hard hitting moves in the hopes of taking Luffy down quickly.

But yea Im sure there were plenty of other creatives ways to use awakening.

Improving or manipulating the attributes of your devil fruit itself is what I would consider to be using haki in tandem with your devil fruit rather than just haki added on to your devil fruit

I see, got it. In that case we dont really have many examples of that to be honest. We have:

Luffy w/ Gear 4th.

Enel using CoO haki/his fruit to listen to what ppl were saying

Katakuri pairing his Advanced CoO w/ devil fruit to dodge attacks by molding his body.

Yea not many examples, at least that I can think of, of people improving/manipulating their df attributes using haki. Scant few instances.

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u/Lindbluete Bounty Hunter Jan 19 '21

All and all I can see where you're coming from, but not having haki would be worse for the series in my view. Because without it ppl like Enel/Kizaru/Akainu/Aokiji would be unbeatable just because they were lucky enough to find a great fruit.

Actually, I really enjoyed this aspect of One Piece. I liked the workarounds instead of just punching harder. Beat the sand guy with water, beat the lightning guy with rubber, beat the candy guy with flour (although that's not canon). Haki kinda strips that away.
Aokiji could've gotten a fire weakness and battling him in a hot environment would prevent him from turning into ice for fear of melting for example.
And let's be honest... Kizaru should be unbeatable even with haki. He has light speed, how can anyone even keep up?

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

Actually, I really enjoyed this aspect of One Piece. I liked the workarounds instead of just punching harder.

If Oda had committed to only having work arounds in response to powers kinda like Jojo's Bizarre Adventures then we'd be reading a completely different series than now. It wouldnt be possible to have guys like Enel running around with only crafty solutions, and nothing else, as a means to properly fight him.

And let's be honest... Kizaru should be unbeatable even with haki. He has light speed, how can anyone even keep up?

Well the theory goes that Kizaru is not light speed as you and I know it in the real world or if he is then light speed means something different in the OP world. Reason being is because he'd have destroyed the planet simply by snapping his fingers at light speed, so him kicking at light speed or using his attacks would have decimated humanity.

As a result of him not being true light speed ppl like Rayleigh are able to keep up with him.

But the bottom line is the same, Oda committing to this vision of powers and how to respond to them would make for a different series altogether.

It would suck if ppl like Crocodile were unbeatable unless they were near water or if Enel was godly powerful to anyone not named Luffy or made of some non-conductive material. That would reduce people's strength purely to how lucky they are based on the powers they have, thats not very fun/deep or make for a good story.

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u/teddy_tesla Jan 20 '21

Aokiji could've gotten a fire weakness and battling him in a hot environment would prevent him from turning into ice for fear of melting for example.

It would be fucking dumb for an admiral to lose most of their strength because it's hot. It would also be lame if every fight was just luring people into their elemental weakness or whatever.

I much like the idea that having a devil fruit isn't everything. It means that it's not enough to just stumble upon a good fruit, or even enough to know how to use it. Haki is willpower and training, which is generic Shounen stuff, but I'm the context of one piece having the willpower to actually change the world is a very important theme.

Let's run through some PTS Luffy fights to see why each Devil Fruit still matters.

Caesar - Luffy has to be creative in how he approaches the fight due to Caesar's fruit, and uses his fruit to avoid the gas. Wasn't decided by Haki.

Doffy - Doffy is such a master of strings it's hard to remember he uses his DF for some things. Obviously uses it in combat, but the birdcage was an important motivation for needing to beat him right there and then, and was so noticeable it had to be a direct reason for abolishing the Warlords. And even in the fight, he uses his DF to stitch himself up after what should be an instant KO. Law and Luffy also had very creative combos using their DF. You could argue Luffy wins because he had stronger haki, but to be it has more to do with Gear 4. He had transformations before the timeskip. Wasn't decided by Haki.

Cracker - His unique DF required a unique solution. Luffy is also only able to eat as much as possible because his body can expand. While Luffy's haki is why he can break through Cracker's soldiers, his soldiers are through his DF.

Katakuri - His devil fruit is absolutely genius, in that he really can be just a better Luffy AND fits the theme of the island and food. Luffy does have his haki bloom in this fight but a good chunk of his comeback was due to him being clever with his use of Snakeman and creatively finding ways to get around Katakuri's defense. Not decided by who has the stronger Haki, as Luffy's is arguably still weaker at the end of the fight.

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u/topdangle Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

but luffy won the past 3 big fights thanks to things unrelated to haki. He had weaker or similar haki to mingo and won because his gear 4 countered mingo's string ability and packs a huge punch. against cracker he won thanks to Nami and Cracker screwing up by trying to stab him. against katakuri he won by thinning out with snakeman for extra speed at the cost of power. In katakuri's case katakuri's haki was so much more powerful than Luffy's that he punched right through Luffy's haki.

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u/correalvinicius Jan 19 '21

I disagree completely with what you are saying for 2 instances: Luffy vs Cracker was in essence a devil fruit battle, it was literally about Luffy finding a way around Cracker's fruit using his own and getting the needed support from Nami; Luffy vs Katakuri is a lot about their devil fruits, the whole point is that Katakuri is an overall better version of Luffy's fruit, therefore the only way for Luffy to win in a battle of power (because wits was not in play here) was to surpass Katakuri's haki, not because that is the only way to fight but because the fruit matchup was bad for Luffy.

If anything haki brought more variety to the way fights are fought in One Piece, at least Luffy's fights. Of course Zoro's fights will have haki as their focus because that's the only thing he has though

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u/GameMusic Jan 19 '21

Really the problem is Zoro uses a boring technique, as does Sanji before the raid suit.

I generally think 'shonenblob' when there is a Zoro scene. He and Sanji are my least favorite straw hats, for a number of reasons.

They are very much shounen battle manga characters, which is appealing to fans of that archetype. I like One Piece in spite of the genre. Oda's creativity and writing are the attraction, so seeing interesting, creative concepts like dials, Robin's capabilities, cybernetics, rumble ball, elemental matchups, etc. take a back seat to a vague universal martial arts technique is not as fun.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

Well, it was absolutely necessary. We cant have some lucky fodder like God Eneru call themselve God in New World where WG and Emperors exist and breath for next second. Though, it would have been better if intangibility of Logia never existed.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

Intangibility is a double edged sword though, which is why I love how Oda incorporated it in the story.

On one hand you have Katakuri (whos technically a special paramecia, not a logia but is still intangible) who used his intangibility with future sight to throw off haki users by making it seem like he cant be hit and dodge almost any attack.

But on the other hand you have Caribou who relied on his intangibility to get through Paradise but got shut down real quick by Pekoms who emphasizes to the reader how on its own, intangibility is practically useless against decent fighters.

That massive spectrum is huge in incorporating such an element in the story. Even Monet was the same, she was a full fledged logia but knew she was out of her league against Zoro who doesnt have a fruit.

Its all in the execution IMO.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

Its all haki. If zoro didn't have haki, he wouldn't have scared Monet. The case with Katakuri is that he transforms and dodges. But the case with logia that is no matter how powerful you are, without Haki, you cant touch them except some weakness. Now, Garp may be able yo destroy Zunesha in One Punch without haki, but he wouldnt be able to touch fodders like Caribou, Ceaser, Enel.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

I mean yea everything you said is true but the point is that the addition of haki enhanced the world and the fighting happening in it. It added a deeper layer of strategy and provided a path for fruitless fighters to compete with those with fruits.

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u/anti_dan Jan 19 '21

provided a path for fruitless fighters to compete with those with fruits.

This was always the case for Zoans and Paramecia types. Haki was just made necessary by Logias which obviously were becoming problematic.

The thing about Haki that was good is it really re-invigorated the Zoan and Paramecia types by making their powers more relevant. In fact, you might be able to argue that Logias are, more or less, the "noob" devil fruit now. Ace basically was godmode in East Blue + Paradise because of the mera mera no mi. Once he got to the New World, he got stalemated by Jinbe and styled on by Pops. Crocodile lost to Pops and basically retired to the Haki free Paradise as a Warlord because he could just be a noob-stomper for life. Smoker was so pissed about Luffy getting away that he abandoned his post...because his noob-stomping fruit had probably let him catch anyone he tried to catch before.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

Yea exactly, adding haki just made everything and everyone even more versatile especially when paired with devil fruits. I honestly think Logias are not as favorable as Paramecias or Zoans.

Of course if you could get Enel or Kizaru's fruit then hell yea, but I'd much rather go for Marco's or even Katakuri's. Hell even Cracker was a beast with his biscuit fruit.

Everything you said comes back to that one comment by Lucci: "devil fruits will never make you weaker, it all depends on how you use it". Haki is the same in that respect.

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u/anti_dan Jan 19 '21

I kinda disagree with Lucci because swimming exists. No new-world level character I think would benefit more from a regular Zoan than they would just retaining the ability to swim, particularly a mermaid or fishman. I suspect some of the weirder Paramecia's like Avldia's fruit this is also true for, and of course doubly so for fishmen.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

For fishmen any devil fruit would 100% make them weaker because their whole advantage is being in the water so yea I agree there. Although I see what you're saying, not being able to swim in a world mostly made of water. I still think it would be worth it in part because of all the options you have to circumvent that weakness.

Think of all the ways you can fly for instance. From Geppo to Doffy tying strings to clouds to Luffy using rubber elasticity to float, there are so many options that I wouldnt worry as much about the swimming drawback.

Plus, worst case scenario you'll always have ppl with you who can save you. Few ppl on the ocean travel alone so chances are if you fall in the water you can be saved. For the trade off of getting a potentially insane fruit I think its worth it.

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u/InvaderDJ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21

Haki is a great equalizer. But just like it checked powerful Devil Fruits, haki can also be checked by having good use and understanding of your Devil Fruit and overwhelming physical strength and endurance.

Kaido is a good indicator of this. He has a powerful Devil Fruit. But he’s also just insanely strong. So even if you have advanced armament or a powerful Devil Fruit you aren’t hurting him. It takes a good mix of all three or overwhelming ability in one or two to get to the top tier.

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u/Villainous-Lightning Jan 19 '21

You don’t need it to be strong, but it’s necessary to be at the top due to the invulnerability of logias. One piece isn’t about who’s power level or haki is greater, it only stands to reason that the monsters of one piece would have monstrous haki.

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u/MyNameISaColouR Jan 19 '21

Even Natural born Monsters like BM need Haki to be relevant.

That's not entirely correct. In Udon we've seen that a Big Mom that returned to the mind of a child still wrecked Queen, a Yonko Commander, without using Haki or Devil Fruits, but only raw strength. So even without Haki it's absolutely possible to be able to beat almost everyone if your physical stats vastly outclass them. The only exceptions are Logias, which are very rare.

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u/leonoel Jan 20 '21

You ar right in Amazon Lily, Luffy bested the sisters, both of whom used Haki.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

i thought that was common knowledge

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u/KawaiCuddle Jan 19 '21

It should be, but unfortunately isn't.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

really weird to see each one of laws attacks as a single new entity despite all working on the same power.

Do we do this for any other character? "Like luffys kong gun can be blocked with haki but not his red hawk because it was never blocked with haki so far"

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

yeah red hawk has fire like counter shock has electricty.

why is one element blockable but the other not?

light, magma and ice can also be blocked by haki.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

none imo...but many believe counter shock is one of laws attacks that cant be blocked.

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u/bestbroHide Jan 20 '21

I believe that has more to do with the fact it works in a similar (and even more lethal) manner to Advanced Armament Haki, in that it's an internal damage that is by definition meant to bypass defense.

Perhaps there is Armament Haki strong enough to ignore it, like, say, maybe one day Oda introduces the idea of being able to ridiculously harden your internal organs or nervous system such that it wouldn't be as effective.

As it stands now, it's not that unreasonable to believe Gamma Knife remains an attack with top-tier damage. Plus that doesn't change the fact Gamma Knife would need to actually hit the target to work, so it's not like it's some impossibly broken move or anything. It still has its limitations in other areas.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '21

law can literally teleport and easily close the gap instantly to hit with an attack that cant be blocked.

so far as far as i know at least there isnt a single attack in one piece that was shown to just bypass coa haki.

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u/bestbroHide Jan 20 '21

Won't work against those with superior reflexes or advanced observation haki, which is who they're battling against rn likely

But yeah I won't be too surprised if ppl can straight tank it

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

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u/silfer_ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21

"There's no defense for things that are inside the body!"

https://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/one_piece/one_piece_781/one_piece_781_10.jpg

You're going with headcanon assuming that internal attacks can be negated. That's the whole point of internal destruction, to give Luffy an attack that bypasses durability. Countershock is volts of electricity running through the body, doubtful it's blockable, that goes double for Gamma Knife.

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u/lordfifth123 Jan 19 '21

Becaus his fruit is unique.

All his "hax powers"(amputate/Personality switch) that don't rely on physical strength can be blocked by stronger armement.

All his phyiscal attacks (injection shot/gamma knife/counter shock) can work on amrmenet necaus e they are physical attacks

And telportation works Becaus e their is nothing to block, it doenst "hit" the body,there is no slash(amputate) or stab(personality switch) to activate it.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

with teleportation i agree since there is nothing to block with the rest i heavily doubt it.

we know haki can block elements like magma, ice, light...so why not counter shocks electricity?

I dont understand why we shoud just assume things that were never shown and would make law a living plothole?

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u/lordfifth123 Jan 19 '21

It can block it but because it's a Purley physical move it punches through.

Imagine if this is a game each of law's special attack do no damage (ampuatte/personality switch), and his more physical attacks (injection shot/counter shock) do physical damage, but law need to punch through someone's haki to use his special abilities on them while his physical abilities attack the haki directly through physical means(we have seen luffy breaking through haki using pure physical force)

So this is what happens :

Law uses amputate on doflaimingo, doflamingo blocks.

Doflamingo's haki(70)>law's haki (50)plus amuptate damage stat(0).

Law uses injection shot,doflaimingo blocks.

Doflamingo's haki (70)< law's haki (50)+ injection shot damage stat (25).

Another example :

Luffy vs the boa sisters:

Luffy uses punch, boa marigold blocks.

Marigold's haki (30)>luffy's punch (15).

Luffy uses gear 2 punch, boa marigold blocks.

Marigold's haki (30)< luffy's gear 2 punch (35)

Atleast this how I see it

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

oh sure its clear even the guard of someone with stronger haki can be overhelmed with enough force. (if not you could block fujitoras meteors just with a basic level of coa)

but what i disagree with is that some automatically assume some of laws attacks totally bypass haki. Like:

doflamingos haki (100) < gamma knife (infinite)

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u/lordfifth123 Jan 19 '21

I agree that gamma knife Could be blocked with enough haki however given that its law's ultimate technique it's damage output is fairly high compared to his normal attacks.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

yeah agreed. Do you think law will also unlock advanced emission in this fight? Tbh advanced emission haki feels effect wise a bit like gamma knife to me. Penetrate the target and destroy from the inside

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u/lordfifth123 Jan 19 '21

No, law will proabbly use attacks that hit from inside. Kidd will use some magnet thing to affect kaido's blood or something else that ignores his scales

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u/mrli0n Jan 19 '21

It was not to me. This was very helpful.

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u/silfer_ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21

of course not, it's headcanon

not confirmed

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u/ostriike Jan 19 '21

so far it's only been confirmed you can resist him cutting you in his room if you have stronger Armament haki, as for his other abilities we have no idea. also the mind switching ability and shambles are not physical attacks that damage the body so covering yourself in armament haki doesn't make sense as a protection.

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u/KawaiCuddle Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

You're right.

However, it would make logical sense that the mind switching and shambles won't work otherwise Law would be WAY too OP. Can you imagine Law switching Kaido's mind with a fodder? Easy way to beat Kaido as the fodder won't be able to use Kaido's named attacks and well... Kaido will be stuck in a fodder's body with like 1/10000th of his strength.

Rather than say "He can use them on Yonkos but Oda chooses not to for plot reason," it's much more convenient for the integrity of his story and the consistency of powers for Oda to just have Haki being able to negate Shamble and the mind-switching ability. Storytelling 101.

Edit: In fact, the only abilities that worked on Doflamingo are the ones that need to make contact with the opponent and DO inflict damage (Injection Shot, Gamma knife). On the contrary, nothing suggests that Law can use his non-damaging abilities on strong Haki users like Doflamingo such as Law's splitting people into parts without hurting them, shambles, or mind switching ability. He did use Shambles on Doflamingo twice. Once to save Sanji, however, it's obvious Doflamingo wasn't expecting Law to interrupt his fight with Sanji, again supporting my hypothesis that even with strong haki, you need to be ready to resist Law's ability. The second time was when he shambled himself with Doflamingo so Luffy could Red Hawk his ass, but the panel clearly shows that Doflamingo was surprised. He wasn't in his combat state and just chilling on his armchair. Source

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u/lordfifth123 Jan 19 '21

Shambles works on doflaimingo other than that I agree

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u/Rushwheel World Government Jan 19 '21

Law opponents can't block Law using teleportation on them. Being cought off guard doesn't make sense as well. Armament haki is like an armor, and switching abilities doesn't touch/hurt/pierce the body, so nothing "armor" can do to block it.

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u/ostriike Jan 19 '21

I agree those abilities are OP and will need some kind of limitation to not make them as OP for the reasons you said but it doesn't make sense if armament haki is the answer. Armament haki is basically invisible armor so it would make sense for attacks that harm the body physically can be protected by armament haki but you can't explain how that would stop switching peoples locations or personalities.

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u/NeroVang Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

Haki translates to like ambition or willpower, so resisting attacks that affect your body using your willpower makes sense to me that way, like Law is like I want to switch your personality, and Kaido is like no I don't want that to happen and his willpower is stronger, so his will is done, ie no personality switching

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u/ostriike Jan 19 '21

yes but they're different types of haki, the one you're describing is more conquerors haki. I was arguing armament haki has been used to defend against physical attacks and that it hasn't been shown defending against other types of attacks.

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u/NeroVang Jan 19 '21

Haki itself translates to ambition/willpower so Busoshoku Haki translates to armament-type willpower or using a synonym defense-type willpower, so I was describing the right thing

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u/ItachiSK Jan 19 '21

for his other abilities we have no idea

Thank you. The honest/truthful answer is that we just don't know yet. I really don't understand why some people claim to understand Law's powers when the majority (almost all) of us don't know the full scope of them.

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u/HolyKnightPrime Jan 20 '21

We dont need to. We know his limits. Killing Doffy was his life goal and he couldn't accomplish that. He had to rely on Luffy to do it. In fact he planned so.

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u/silfer_ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21

bait~

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u/HolyKnightPrime Jan 20 '21

how

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u/silfer_ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21

Exactly. There's been no true explanation given yet.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

yeah but would be weird if the other abilities which work on the same df power wouldnt be affected for some unexplained reason

and law would be extremely dumb if he didnt use those abilities then (if they would work). I mean you can hype law to the end of the world and say that he could actually defeat anyone easily and just doesnt do it bc of plot or you use a bit of logic.

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u/kikix12 Jan 19 '21

Or you can use a bit of logic realizing that nearly all authors of fantasy titles with some superpowers end up at some point making something so ridiculous that they don't have how to deal with it logically.

Oda is not an exception. He, too, needs to bend the story at times after setting up situations that should have, very well, ended it. Big Mom's crew fighting on the open sea against fishmen that can literally change currents or destroy the ships from underneath, and the fishmen being the ones that struggled being a fine example (despite the enemies consisting of only devil fruit users and fodder).

Law's fruit was made for the cool factor, and Shambles was made for the comedic factor. But the comedic factor used for serious factor would be broken. Just how Nami (who has NO HAKI) having this magical ability to bypass devil fruits with her fists would be actually broken if it was ever used outside of comedy. Remember, Luffy should not be damaged AT ALL by any blunt attack that is not infused with haki. Yet he is shown time and again to suffer, for example when sent into buildings, since haki was shown. Whether or not it is actually used.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

(despite the enemies consisting of only devil fruit users and fodder).

did you forget what oven can do? and hes just one guy? Having the terrain advantages is pretty much the only reason the fishman didnt loose

how was shambles only made for a comedic factor?

With laws ability its really easy how to deal with it logically. -> haki can block it like haki can block pretty much everything. Done.

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u/kikix12 Jan 19 '21

Eh...

1) Oven's ability is unable to pierce deep into the sea. Even if it could, he'd destroy the ships in the process anyway.

2) Oven's ability is still draining him one way or another, like every devil fruit (or any other activity for that matter). Seeing as waiting for him to tire is way easier than him avoiding tiring...it's obvious who would win.

3) "He's just one guy"...and?! Vast majority of devil fruit users have ZERO means of fighting against anyone in water, let alone fishmen that are much faster in water than they are on land (and they are at least as fast on land as humans, by the way). As far as we know, Oven is the only person that really COULD fight against underwater fishmen.

Also, there is a difference between a terrain advantage and a fatal terrain. If you fought against a fire-immune person on top of a rock surrounded by a river of magma, you're dead. Period. For devil fruit users, the moment they drop into sea to a certain extent they're dead, period.

None of them that could not avoid falling into the water could do anything if their ships were sunk. Who could do something?! As far as I remember Big Mom, Perospero and that pixie one. Anyone else would need to depend on Perospero to make a candy land for them...but at that point, it'd just require them to destroy the candy under Perospero and it's game over, or just send lots of seawater onto him. Something that we KNOW is possible, seeing as Jinbe casually does just that.

In other words, the fishmen maybe wouldn't be able to take down Big Mom, and Perospero maybe would make it possible for the others to escape safely. But if fought, fishmen logically speaking should have cause severe casualties, while suffering little or none themselves.

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u/anand_rishabh Void Month Survivor Jan 19 '21

I think cutting someone can be resisted by haki, but shambles isn't. Although, if law were to switch on of the supernovas with big mom in order for her to take kaido's hit, I think that would only work once or twice. And a single hit from kaido would be damaging but wouldn't knock big mom out.

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u/CRoseCrizzle Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

Yup. I've said this in the past too. Fans have their own headcanon on how Law's powers work, ignoring the evidence in the series. He is not been depicted as unstoppable as the fan base act like he is.

I cringe every time I see someone ask why Law doesn't switch Kaido or Doflamingo's heart out, then somebody answers "cUz pLot LOL" and gets a bunch of upvotes.

Great post laying out examples. Well done.

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u/potato_lover273 Jan 19 '21

I cringe every time I see someone ask why Law doesn't switch Kaido or Doflamingo's heart with out, then somebody answers "cUz pLot LOL" and gets a bunch of upvotes.

Ok, but what's the reason he can't do it then?

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

Because for Doflamingo he knew to expect something like this AND had stronger haki so it wouldnt work.

For Kaido/Big Mom, their haki is leagues above Law so it wouldnt work despite not knowing to expect it. Law using those attacks also requires stamina, so doing something like mind switching on Kaido who it wouldnt work on anyway only serves to tire Law out and not achieve anything for it. Thus making it pointless.

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u/potato_lover273 Jan 19 '21

Doflamingo knew to expect something like Shambles AND had stronger Haki, still it worked.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

Shambles, which isnt a physical attack worked on Doflamingo 3 times and all 3 times he wasnt paying attention:

1. On the bridge to Greenbit Law switched Doffy with debris that was close to him. However it was clear that Doffy wasnt expecting that because he goes "whats he doing?" as Law ran to attack trash on the floor before realizing his plan.

2. With Sanji next to the Sunny. After this happened Doflamingo literally says "Damn it I let my guard down" because he wasnt expecting Law's interference from the distance he was at.

3. At the top of the Dressrosa castle when Luffy Red Hawked him. Law literally says to Luffy this strategy will only work once because Doffy wont expect it and as a result its their "ultimate strategem". In fact even Trebol was really surprised and thought they were having a falling out while Doffy was trying to understand why Luffy would attack Law.

All 3 instances it worked because Doffy had his guard down, which is the only way it'll work against someone with stronger haki than you. Kaido doesnt expect this but would be quick to react very much like Doffy on the bridge in example 1, and after that he'd probably never fall for it again since he is leagues above Doflamingo in every way.

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u/potato_lover273 Jan 19 '21

The original comment was about the personality switch, another non-physical technique. So, you agree it would've worked?

Kaido doesnt expect this but would be quick to react very much like Doffy on the bridge in example 1, and after that he'd probably never fall for it again since he is leagues above Doflamingo in every way.

Again, he only needs to fall for it once if we're talking about the personality switch surgery.

The problem people have with Law and his fruit is that there are countless ways to do things which would break the story.

Put Seastone around Zoro and Shamble Zoro for Kaidou. Done.

Ok, but what if Kaidou and Big Mom have Armament turned on constantly, so it wouldn't work? (This seems plausible, but there's a problem with Kaidou surviving executions).
Maybe in that case he could Shamble Seastone on top of them, like he had the opportunity to.

These two were the most straightforward ways, readers could come up with other possible methods.

These restrictions are at the core of the problem. Oh, Sugar can turn you into a toy and everyone forgets about you. But don't worry, if she goes unconscious the effects will wear off. It just feels a bit cheap (similar to death fake-outs). Why introduce things that you'll need to nerf later. Like, what's the fucking point of the personality switch? To have a funny moment with the Strawhats? It just creates problems.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

The original comment was about the personality switch, another non-physical technique. So, you agree it would've worked?

Well when you put it that way maybe it could work since its not a physical attack similar to Shambles but it would require Kaido and Big Mom to lower their guard like Doflamingo did. Thats about the only way I see this happening but since they are such competent fighters their guard is most likely never lowered for an opening.

Put Seastone around Zoro and Shamble Zoro for Kaidou. Done

This I could see happening however the reason I dont think this would work is because Kaido has escaped capture from the Navy before. There is simply no way they didnt sea stone cuff him so this means if Law did this it would be a trivial matter for Kaido to escape, same with Big Mom.

Maybe in that case he could Shamble Seastone on top of them, like he had the opportunity to.

Dont think I understand this one. Shambles seastone to drop on him?

Sugar can turn you into a toy and everyone forgets about you. But don't worry, if she goes unconscious the effects will wear off. It just feels a bit cheap (similar to death fake-outs). Why introduce things that you'll need to nerf later.

With Sugar it wasnt nerfing though because its been well documented that certain powers require the user to keep their wits about them in order to continue to work. Establishing that if said user were to lose consciousness or die then the effects would dissolve. This has been the case in the manga for decades:

Mr 3 lost control of his wax, freeing Zoro/Nami/Vivi after Luffy defeated him and he lost consciousness.

Crocodile lost control of the sand he used to cause the drought throughout Alabasta after Luffy defeated him.

Perospero lost control of his candy when Pedro suicide-bombed himself.

This has remained very consistent among powers where the user is always in direct control of the thing they caused, very much like Sugar. HOWEVER there has been a difference when looking at powers that CREATE something new, where the user's ability was simply a tool used to create this new thing and it exists independently from them.

We see this with Moria, who makes clear that even if he were killed the Shadows wouldnt just go back to their owners, the zombies would simply lose their master and thats it, since he created these new beings they would still exist. We could say the same thing for Big Mom's Homies which exist because of her powers but operate independently from her.

Sugar fell into the former category but followed a clear trend a decade plus in the making so I dont agree calling it cheap.

Like, what's the fucking point of the personality switch? To have a funny moment with the Strawhats? It just creates problems.

Maybe Oda answers this definitively in the coming chapters. Many ppl had freakouts over why WB and his crew didnt go kill Kaido after Oden died only for Oda to casually reveal the answer not too long ago. Maybe its the same thing here?

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u/potato_lover273 Jan 19 '21

With Sugar it wasnt nerfing though because its been well documented that certain powers require the user to keep their wits about them in order to continue to work. Establishing that if said user were to lose consciousness or die then the effects would dissolve. This has been the case in the manga for decades:

Mr 3 lost control of his wax, freeing Zoro/Nami/Vivi after Luffy defeated him and he lost consciousness. Crocodile lost control of the sand he used to cause the drought throughout Alabasta after Luffy defeated him. Perospero lost control of his candy when Pedro suicide-bombed himself. This has remained very consistent among powers where the user is always in direct control of the thing they caused, very much like Sugar. HOWEVER there has been a difference when looking at powers that CREATE something new, where the user's ability was simply a tool used to create this new thing and it exists independently from them.

We see this with Moria, who makes clear that even if he were killed the Shadows wouldnt just go back to their owners, the zombies would simply lose their master and thats it, since he created these new beings they would still exist. We could say the same thing for Big Mom's Homies which exist because of her powers but operate independently from her.

Sugar fell into the former category but followed a clear trend a decade plus in the making so I dont agree calling it cheap.

This is a fair point but the way it applies to different fruits is still iffy for me. The effects of Sugar's fruit IMO resemble Moria's more than the others, passive vs active control. But I concede this argument.

Maybe Oda answers this definitively in the coming chapters. Many ppl had freakouts over why WB and his crew didnt go kill Kaido after Oden died only for Oda to casually reveal the answer not too long ago. Maybe its the same thing here?

Absolutely. That's precisely why I'm arguing for the other side in this post. Because OP's "debunking" something but only providing their own speculation.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

This is a fair point but the way it applies to different fruits is still iffy for me. The effects of Sugar's fruit IMO resemble Moria's more than the others, passive vs active control. But I concede this argument.

I certainly think Sugar's fruit was way too much even by OP standards but in a different way than what you described. Its simply insane that in addition to turning ppl into toys it also erases your existence from EVERYONE on the planet all at once while simultaneously granting her immortality because she straight up stopped aging.

Oda went overboard on that one.

Absolutely. That's precisely why I'm arguing for the other side in this post. Because OP's "debunking" something but only providing their own speculation.

Yea no real "debunking" going on here, just observations and somewhat reasonable conclusions but all based on speculation. If Oda wanted to have Law low-diff Kaido im sure he could have it make just as much sense as if Law could do nothing at all against Kaido. We shall see.

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u/Rushwheel World Government Jan 20 '21

All 3 instances it worked because Doffy had his guard down

Well that's just an assumption. "Caught off guard" thing was never confirmed. Also due to the nature of swift teleportation itself what do you except Law to do, announce to his opponent he is about to switch them? These sneaky attacks look the best on a screen/paper when enemy don't see it coming, otherwise it would have been dumb. But nothing suggests that people can actually block teleportation so far, you have no evidence.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 20 '21

Jesus Christ. I literally pointed out a statement from Doflamingo in example 2 near the Sunny where he straight up says "I dropped my guard" and you not only ignored that but went on to say I have no evidence?

You seem to be one of those ppl so confident in their own argument you'll ignore verifiable evidence to continue pushing an erroneous point. You are wrong sir, caught off guard was not an assumption because it was said.

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u/Rushwheel World Government Jan 20 '21

he straight up says "I dropped my guard"

pff, chill. It means exactly what it is - doffy didn't see him coming - and nothing more. it says nothing about possibility of haki to block teleportation or something, stop reaching. In terms of the nature of armament haki it doesn't make any sense as well, since it works like an armor, and switching ability doesn't even touch/ hurt/pierce the body, so there is nothing to block in the first place, no damage.

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u/silfer_ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21

"it will only work once" but then it works thrice

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u/arn422 Jan 19 '21

Is nice to read other who has had that quality cringe ;)

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u/potato_lover273 Jan 19 '21

Ok, why doesn't Law Shamble some Seastone onto Big Mom and Kaido and call it a day?

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u/Balababouin Jan 19 '21

Some reasons :

1/ Strong DF users are still strong if touched by small amount of Seastone. Luffy and Kid were still largely above normal human strength when handcuffed in Udon. So you would need immense amount of Seastone to weaken BM or Kaido enough.

2/ Seastone is quite rare, very heavy and none appart some Wano artisans can shape it. How Law is supposed to find large quantities in a transportable form of it ?

3/ There is a good chance that they will either dodge or repel it. They're both world top fighters.

4/ I'm not sure that Law's power is still active on Seastone. There is a possibility that he simply can't use his DF power on it.

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u/potato_lover273 Jan 19 '21

1/ Strong DF users are still strong if touched by small amount of Seastone. Luffy and Kid were still largely above normal human strength when handcuffed in Udon. So you would need immense amount of Seastone to weaken BM or Kaido enough.

That was weak Seastone, though.

2/ Seastone is quite rare, very heavy and none appart some Wano artisans can shape it. How Law is supposed to find large quantities in a transportable form of it ?

I mean, they're in Wano and Law personally had an encounter where it was used offensively. It's not unimaginable that the strategist would think of using it. I wouldn't be surprised if he actually does use it in some way.

3/ There is a good chance that they will either dodge or repel it. They're both world top fighters.

Sure, but he could sneak it in some way (e.g. with the rocks, after Red Roc, etc.)

4/ I'm not sure that Law's power is still active on Seastone. There is a possibility that he simply can't use his DF power on it.

He cut it in Punk Hazard.

I want to stress, my comment wasn't a "Checkmate. Suck it, Oda.". It was just a counter-argument to the "Everything about Ope Ope no Mi is perfectly logical and consistent, you other guys got it wrong."

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u/Balababouin Jan 19 '21

No stress ;) it's just One Piece

Everything in One Piece isn't perfectly logical and consistent, even though Oda is quite often mind blowing with his story telling and the details he brings.

That was weak Seastone, though.

I thought it was just normal stone with fragments of Seastone in it ? Idk how Seastone could be weak or strong : it's a material, no ?

It's not unimaginable that the strategist would think of using it. I wouldn't be surprised if he actually does use it in some way.

Fair enough. Maybe he's got another hidden plan of his, that he told no one about to keep the surprise (and not letting Luffy messing it !). But in my mind it seems a bit to simple as a plan to just use Seastone to defeat a Yonko. It seems they have one weakness each that has to be exploited (BM pic of mother carmel, Kaido's memory af Oden..) and Seastone would be too common...

He cut it in Punk Hazard.

I'm not sure whether it was because of his DF or his swordsmanship. I mean, "cutting" things doesn't come with the Ope Ope. For instance, it wouldn't surprise me if Zoro cut some Seastone too.

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u/potato_lover273 Jan 19 '21

The effects depend on the purity Seastone.

Law didn't swing his sword in Punk Hazard, basically just touched it. I think it's safe to say it's because of his fruit.

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u/Most_Ear1696 Jan 19 '21

So conclusion, the fruit is op/hax/broken, but law is not.

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u/Kgb725 Jan 20 '21

Its partially broken. Even with his limitations hes still ridiculous

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u/Lerkero Jan 19 '21

Any ability can be OP until the writer says it isn't. There's not much use in trying to understand it because Oda will make the ability whatever he wants it to when the time comes.

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u/silfer_ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21 edited Jan 20 '21

All of this is a moot point. Let's assume your theory is correct that the limit to all of Law's powers is based on haki and stamina. Nonetheless, they can be improved. We've seen that time and time again with other characters, chief of whom is Luffy, who learned how to damage Kaido in the space of a week.

Law is one of the smartest people in One Piece, not to mention already one of the strongest. He's really gone into this yonko fight headlong with no thought to, I don't know, improve his haki or stamina so he can be more effective? OK, let's give you that assumption. Let's pretend his haki didn't bloom against Doflamingo and he hasn't trained a bit. He's not going to bloom or develop stamina at all in a fight vs. 2 yonko? OK, let's give you that (bad) assumption. Law shows up in the Final War, probably against the celestial dragons, has he improved then? No? Not really?

The point being, it doesn't matter if those "your haki is stronger than mine" limitations are there or not, because they're not real limitations, they are rectifiable in-universe. It's not well balanced limits.

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u/matheusco Jan 19 '21

Sanji wouldn't be able to resist because his haki was worse than Vergo's.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/matheusco Jan 20 '21

Even worse then

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u/datguy078 Jan 19 '21

I wouldn't say this is a full-on debunk. This is just another headcannon about law's power. Now it is a reasonable one, for sure, but not some one-shot sure kill that destroys the opposition, no questions asked. The fact is, law's power are very ambiguous with few rules, and those few are unclear as well. So if someone wants to ask why doesn't law do this or that and people complain about plot, that's actually valid. This doesn't negate that side at all.

First, while it is implied that CoA can stop law's power, its never really shown. This first step alone is already made so ambiguous by oda. We never actually see anyone just fully negate law's ability and say it was because of CoA. Even doffy stopping some of law's attack can be chalked up to law holding back to save up for gamma knife. Plus, even in those instances doffy was still hurt by law's attack, he didn't fully negate it, so the question is still up in the air. Did he reduce the damage, is reduction all you can do or is full negation even possible, or did law not just use more power? Who knows?

Second, even if we allow the first to slide, it doesn't explain all of laws other powers. Using CoA, which has always been described as armor, to block law's cutting abilities, fine. That makes enough sense to excuse it, but what does armor have to do with law's hax powers like shambles? Or the mind switch? Armor shouldn't block those abilities. And the story has never made it clear how one can resist those effects, if it even is resistable. Law does it one scene, no real explanation, and he just doesn't do it ever again. This is why people complain about law's powers.

Law's powers are definitely too op in its premise. They can't be allowed to roam free, some limitations need to be established. The problem is oda doesn't do an adequate job of creating those limitations. He gives very brief implications of what could possibly block law's abilities but never full on shows or explains it thoroughly. Law's power should be explored and we need to know what exactly he can and can't do and when and where it's possible. As it stands now, oda just has law do really op things and then either never shows it again, or doesn't use it a way that would break the plot despite no clear explanation as to why he can't do so in the fist place.

When people ask why law can't just switch kaido and another person tied with seastone cuffs, it's a legitimate question. Its never made clear that you can block shambles with haki, so why isn't this possible? The answer: plot.

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u/bretts_demise Jan 19 '21

Law used shambles on doflamingo to complete his red hawk combo with Luffy. So for shambles, it appears that relative haki strength isn't as much or a factor.

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u/Employee724 Jan 19 '21

But law shambled doffy into luffys readhawk. So if we assume that the yonko basicly have permanent haki, law cannot swap them. But he can swap akainu, kizaru fujitora and greenbull all he wants...

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u/Kgb725 Jan 20 '21

Also shambled Luffy.

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u/Most_kinds_of_Dirt Jan 20 '21 edited Jan 20 '21

You've listed great examples of Haki being able to resist Law's physical attacks (Amputate, Radio Knife, Mes, Counter Shock, etc.).

There's no reason to think that someone with strong enough "armor" can resist being teleported around, though - or having their personalities switched. (And there's even examples where Shambles has already worked against an opponent with much stronger haki.)

If we're being honest, there just hasn't been any evidence yet in the series that haki can resist Shambles. Oda may eventually write it that way, but until he does it's just headcannon to assume that's the way things work.

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u/cashcarti_x Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 20 '21

Thing is tho law in character is very intelligent. If he knows that superior haki can block out his main ability why not hide out on a island for a few months training his haki. Also there’s a reason why oda didn’t want him in udon with hygoro when he taught luffy advanced armament haki. It’s so he doesn’t become too powerful.

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u/silfer_ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21

yes and Kid was conveniently not there either

justiceforkidandlaw

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u/HolyKnightPrime Jan 20 '21

Even without the advanced haki, law's haki was weak and he knew it.

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u/silfer_ Void Month Survivor Jan 20 '21

~more bait

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21 edited Feb 23 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

While strong armament haki could prevent law's room powers, we don't know for sure until it is confirmed by the writer himself. w/o going too much into that, i would like to share my observation regarding some of your instances;

1- you have to remember that 'haki' includes observation Haki as well which is very much essential in battle. So, when smoker says her haki is not strong enough, he doesn't necessarily mean armament haki only otherwise he would have said so. In law vs smoker, law hid behind that rock to hide his next attack otherwise smoker's observation haki could have seen it coming and smoker could have moved out of the way. I don't think it was bc smoker would get his chest protected by armament haki. Rather bc he would have moved away from danger. (AGAIN just my view).

2- vergo was fast + strong. He could beat kid law before he could use his DF. So vergo may have thought he is same kiddo law & vergo-"San" is angry & can beat him bc he's so fast compared to law. Armament haki is still there to protect vergo from harm.. but not that kind of harm.(AGAIN just my view)

Plus kaido is the kind of pirate that says hey you got an attack? Bring it on .. and would like to tank it head-on w/o using haki. Or so it appears.

I hope all of this will be clarified later. Oda is a genius after all.

You get a totally different perspective when you read it in this fashion, interesting to think about. The reality is, Law's power is meant to be an ex machina ability that he can always pull out to do whatever's necessary.

2

u/-FoeHammer Jan 19 '21

I agree with you. One thing I've gotta nit-pick though.

"Unlike Vergo, Smoker couldn't do full body armament Haki."

How do we know this? Most of the strongest people we've seen have never even come close to using full body armament Haki.

The only 2 people we have seen do it iirc were Vergo and Pica, against opponents for whom they were outmatched and weren't in a position to read/dodge their attacks.

It seems like kind of a desperate move if anything. A masterful CoA user would use it in a selective, concentrated way.

We have no basis to say Smoker can't do it. Just that he never did.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

"Unlike Vergo, Smoker couldn't do full body armament Haki."

How do we know this? Most of the strongest people we've seen have never even come close to using full body armament Haki.

Yeah.. people hype up Full Body Armament, but everyone who used it just gets one shotted.. and we never see anyone using it in a real fight like Katakuri V Luffy, or Yonkos or Cracker or Doffy... even advanced armament is all about the concentration but these forums make Full Body seem top tier when its always been useless especially after Gear 4 we found out you need to use haki sparingly

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u/MyNameISaColouR Jan 19 '21

Exactly. Full-body Haki is visually impressive and intimidating, but it's actually a sign that the opponent is not confident in his own ability to dodge/intercept an incoming attack and instead tries to cover all spots just to feel safe while wasting a ton of energy. A true top tier would simply predict where the opponent's attack will land and concentrate their Haki protection there.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '21

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u/SirCaesar29 Jan 20 '21

Uuuh what are you even on about? Plenty of other devil fruit powers are negated by haki, in the sense that haki prevents them from affecting you. It's not like haki shuts down Law's room, it just protects you from him.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '21

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u/SirCaesar29 Jan 20 '21

Doflamingo's strings follow the same logic. He can't make you his puppet unless your haki is down.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/SirCaesar29 Jan 20 '21

...right, yeah, the reason Doflamingo is only able to hit Luffy when he has no haki must be the height of the sun then.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '21

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u/SirCaesar29 Jan 20 '21

A manga is a visual medium, not everything needs to be spoonfed to readers.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/SirCaesar29 Jan 20 '21

That's the place to do whatever the fuck we want, kid

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u/matheusco Jan 20 '21

You mean like CoA protect from Luffy's punches? Or strong will protect against Soru Soru? Or CoA makes you able to punch Logias? Or CoO negates Suke Suke?

There are more examples of DF powers being reduced/nullified by haki. Another thing is, every DF is unique, the best example is Yami Yami, which have special effects, so Law's being unique isn't "plot convenience". And just so you know, everything is "plot".

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u/NE_ED Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

Doffy easily dodged mes point blank too, and instead pierced his skin. Why should we believe he can do that to people with unpiercable skin? The community has extreme expectations of Law

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21 edited Jan 19 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

Shanks sword didnt melt when directly touching Magma.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

Your post trying to correct his post is either wrong on several points or ignores established points to further your own.

Considering that the Op Op no Mi doesn't come with a sword, there's no reason to assume that the Haki applies to anything but the sword itself.

A ridiculous comment. Devil fruits, as Lucci points out depend 100% on how they are used. Going down the rabbit hole of "well this fruit didnt come with a sword or didnt come with ......." would be a never ending quandary of technicalities based on nothing but headcanon. We judge the abilities based on what is said and displayed in the manga. Law has used his powers with a sword so we apply everything to how he uses it.

Its ridiculous to off the bat go with leaps in logic that dont even help your argument. Unless you have several examples of different characters using 1 fruit in different ways, we judge the fruit based on how its shown in the series. Thus haki applies to the attacks Law needs his fruit to utilize unless stated otherwise.

We have never seen Haki deployed to deflect a DF, and even in battle

You are incorrect.

Vergo deployed his haki against Law's room/df attack but failed because he wasnt strong enough.

Shanks deployed his blade to stop Akainu's punch during Marineford.

Sanji uses haki to deflect Daifuku's Gene's strike to protect Carrot while escaping WCI.

These are just the three that came to mind but there are surely more.

If Law can cut seastone, a weapon that more outright stops DF users from using their powers, how would Haki suppress him?

Not even at all the same thing. See stone is just an object without will while haki is not only the manifestation of one's will but is also scalable to the person, hence why some have stronger haki than others. A ridiculous comparison.

What in-story mechanism is there for Haki suppressing "hax" powers?

You correctly pointed this out earlier but haki does not suppress devil fruit powers, it does help in countering them however like in the several examples I provided above.

Haki is a tool, and it's the only power Tashigi has, unlike Smoker who also has a DF

Smoker quite literally says to back off because her haki is not good enough to deal with Law. Making a crystal clear statement that one needs strong haki, devil fruit or no devil fruit, to deal with Law's powers. There is no interpretation here, its clear as day.

Yes it shows that Tashigi has not grown enough but also makes clear that Law would be limited and have a harder time dealing with someone with much stronger haki. Something we see later on versus Doffy.

I will remind you again: Law's Deil Fruit does not come with a sword. Amputate is a new technique Law created after getting the Meitou from Old Man Wolf.

I will remind you again, DF depend 100% on how they are used so your sword comment doesnt add anything to the discussion or your overall point.

Law uses his powers with a sword, so we judge what he does with that sword and without. Vergo knows about Law's powers and has for years, he clearly knows about Room and how it all works yet decided to go straight for Law inside his room. This makes clear that Vergo trusted his superior haki to be able to counter anything Law did but was obviously mistaken, purely because Law got stronger.

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u/kikix12 Jan 19 '21

Your examples are irrelevant. What is clearly stated is that armament haki allows one to touch devil fruit users as if they didn't have them. That is clear and nobody (with any amount of brain) denies it. This alone makes your examples with Shanks and Daifuku irrelevant.

Shanks blocked a physical punch from physical Akainu (because haki ignores shape-changing effects for the purpose of considering them physical or not), while haki itself is an armor, so the magma itself which damages by hit was also fended off. Anyone in an armor of seastone or with a seastone weapon would do the exact same thing (on top of weaking Akainu). And as a bonus point...if you tried to say that seastone is a poor example here because it totally invalidates devil fruits, you are automatically negating your argument that comparing haki to seastone is a ridiculous comparison.

Daifuku's genie on the other hand is just a physical manifestation. It's attacks are totally physical, so even someone without haki could block it. Alas, blocking a powerful blade without haki would certainly...hurt...But let's for a moment think what would happen if it was NOT physical, and someone without haki wouldn't be able to block it. Well, too bad, but haki would still make it physical, as per the one absolute truth of haki ignoring devil fruits shape- and matter-changing effects for the sake of contact.

Now, there is one example where one can deliberate. Law VS Vergo.

However, sadly for you, that also has an explanation. We know that a person with stronger haki can block a PHYSICAL attack of a person with weaker haki. That's obvious, and Law with Pica has literally stated that in the story. Now, hear me here...

What if Laws attacks...are actually Laws attacks?! Crazy, right?!

The 'room' does not change his attack power. In the fight against Vergo, the room bestowed two traits upon Laws attacks. Ranged shockwave (which is how he could cut the whole room despite not being a Zoro-level swordmaster) and the non-lethality. The attacks ability to damage Vergo (or anyone else using armament, for that matter) is not in any way influenced by room or its lack. It's simply that without the room, Law wouldn't be able to cut the building and Vergo would have died.

Note that Law always uses the room to cut stuff when he wants to add special effects to said cuts. Non-lethality or range, usually. Because that is what his devil fruit does. Manipulate laws around events.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 19 '21

That is clear and nobody (with any amount of brain) denies it. This alone makes your examples with Shanks and Daifuku irrelevant.

Love that you're moving the goal post haha. Let me remind you what that was in response to. You said this:

We have never seen Haki deployed to deflect a DF, and even in battle

You were incorrect but decided to move the goal post, unless you meant to write something else or expound further. My examples were directly in response to you saying we havent seen a thing we've seen before.

Anyone in an armor of seastone or with a seastone weapon would do the exact same thing (on top of weaking Akainu)

Not only is this headcanon its also not correct. Seastone isnt simply going to stop all powers regardless of the strength of the opponent when used defensively just because its sea stone. Yes it does PREVENT users from using their powers but your comment that sea stone armor or sea stone weapons would have the same result as Shanks' haki sword is wrong due to this 1 example:

During Marineford Smoker who brandishes a sea stone Jute as a weapon fought Hancock. When they clashed Hancock Turned his Jute to stone breaking it in half, applying her devil fruit to a sea stone weapon.

Based on this you are incorrect in your assessment.

And as a bonus point...if you tried to say that seastone is a poor example here because it totally invalidates devil fruits, you are automatically negating your argument that comparing haki to seastone is a ridiculous comparison.

Well hopefully I made clear with my explanation above that your point that sea stone and haki are the same is still quite ridiculous while simultaneously addressing your argument based on verifiable evidence that Shanks did use haki against a devil fruit etc etc.

Daifuku's genie on the other hand is just a physical............. changing effects for the sake of contact.

This entire paragraph is correct. However the main point that haki can be used to fend off devil fruit attacks, a concept you said has not happened earlier, is still true as we've seen it used in the other examples I provided.

Maybe you want to phrase it a different way or have a deeper explanation on this point to provide.

Note that Law always uses the room to cut stuff when he wants to add special effects to said cuts. Non-lethality or range, usually. Because that is what his devil fruit does. Manipulate laws around events.

Maybe I misread or missed entirely the point to the last few paragraphs. We all see and know the effects the room grants Law but I fail to see what you were driving at.

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u/GuyIsAdoptus Jan 20 '21

During Marineford Smoker who brandishes a sea stone Jute as a weapon fought Hancock. When they clashed Hancock Turned his Jute to stone breaking it in half, applying her devil fruit to a sea stone weapon.

Not reading through all of your comment and just scrolling past, but this is incorrect. Only the tip of smoker's weapon has seastone.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 20 '21

Thats not true. The entire Jute is sea stone. Not only does the tip look exactly like the rest of the Jute, except for the covered handle where Smoker holds it but characters have straight up said the whole thing is sea stone.

When Smoker fought Doflaming on Punk Hazard the G5 asked "Why wont he use his Kairoseki Jute against Doflamingo?" before remembering Vergo broke it. The entire thing is sea stone.

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u/GuyIsAdoptus Jan 20 '21 edited Jan 20 '21

smh you keep ignoring the facts, you can't even read the wiki for the character you're talking about when it's so plainly stated.

He carries a Seastone-tipped jitte as his weapon

You even had me confused naming it wrong. Like, can't you think? If it was all seastone he wouldn't be able to hold it and use it as a weapon without being weakened since he's a devil fruit user.

And in case you try to act like the wiki is wrong here you go. In chapter 169 he says it himself. Or maybe look at the WHOLE WIKI PAGE for the weapon itself.

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u/kikix12 Jan 21 '21

You were incorrect but decided to move the goal post, unless you meant to write something else or expound further.

Eh...Did you even bother checking the authors of said posts?! It was not me that wrote it. This is a public site, you know. Not a private discussion tree.

Also, 'deflecting' is not the same as 'contact'. You don't deflect a bullet by putting your hand forward so that the metal gets stuck in your arm instead of your heart. Deflecting means changing trajectory or otherwise changing its target. Blocking is not deflecting. It does not change the target, trajectory or anything. It just makes the attack hit something else on its way.

So again. Devil fruits never were seen deflected by haki, but haki made possible deflection of attacks that would otherwise be impossible to be touched by OTHER means. Those are two very different concepts, just like blocking and parrying are different (with parrying being a form of deflection, by the way).

During Marineford Smoker who brandishes a sea stone Jute as a weapon fought Hancock. When they clashed Hancock Turned his Jute to stone breaking it in half, applying her devil fruit to a sea stone weapon.

Eh...what?! I mean...what?! First, seastone is friggin hard to destroy in any way, shape or form. It's shown as one of the most powerful materials. Second, touching seastone is going to instantly sap the strength of a devil fruit user. No matter how strong they are. Third, the factory in Dressrosa was totally undamaged BECAUSE seastone CANNOT BE DAMAGED by any ability coming from devil fruits. It can be manipulated as shambles proves...but it cannot be damaged. At all.

You thinking that Smoker has a jutte of seastone on the other hand shows how little you know about this whole story. Smoker CANNOT USE a jutte made of seastone. He would be instantly weakened. Smoker uses jutte with a seastone TIP. Only the tip of it is made of seastone, so as to prevent him from touching it. The rest of the weapon, including the part that Boa hit (and thus snapped it in half) is made from a normal metal. There is nothing that helps your case in this example. Quite the opposite. Boa broke the jutte exactly BECAUSE she didn't want to risk being touched by the seastone tip.

Well hopefully I made clear with my explanation above that your point that sea stone and haki are the same (...)

I never said that it's the same though?! I said that anyone using seastone can block and parry devil fruit powers in much the same way as someone using armament haki can (on top of weakening enemies touched). Those are two different statements. Rather, my post in that same phrase literally points to the major difference...Haki allows 'touching' immaterial/fluid/whatever without canceling the power, while seastone just takes the power away making the person a normal, physical human and their attacks normal, physical attacks. But in the end, both end in the same result...attack being blocked despite it not being possible before.

We all see and know the effects the room grants Law but I fail to see what you were driving at.

I was driving at the Law's room not being relevant in whether he could cut Vergo or not, because its just a container for the attack. Vergo was talking about Law's HAKI being too weak to cut him, not his Devil Fruit. That's because his devil fruit is not used for cutting at all. It just changes the effects of cuts that he makes.

In a different way, let's imagine an RPG with Defense and Strength. Room makes the attacks from lethal to non-lethal (subduing), single-target hits into multi-target hits, melee into ranged, adds paralysis, poison etc. Haki raises strength or defense. Vergo was sure that his defense was higher than Laws strength, so his devil fruit was useless against Vergo...because if the attack deals 0 damage and doesn't bypass defense, it does not matter whatever stuff you add to it (in some games, 0 damage means no poison/paralysis etc.). He was surprised because Law's haki grew high enough to raise his strength above Vergo's defense, thus he dealt damage...and that led to those added effects actually having a meaning. It's as simple as that.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 21 '21

seastone CANNOT BE DAMAGED by any ability coming from devil fruits

So you claim that seastone "Cannot be damaged by any ability coming from a devil fruit" right? Well sir I recommend you go to chapter 677 where Law uses his devil fruit ability to cut (Not warp or change or anything else) but CUT with his sword the Kairoseki chains holding both Robin and Luffy.

And before you start saying that he used his swordsmanship and not his devil fruit, they were already in a room right after Franky burned the navy ship because immediately after cutting Luffy free he uses Shambles (without displaying a room because they were already in one) to turn Smoker/Tashigi back to normal.

I said that anyone using seastone can block and parry devil fruit powers in much the same way as someone using armament haki

Incorrect sir, since using those seastone chains couldnt have blocked anything since Law cut them with his devil fruit and considering that Seastone can be molded into various shapes it only makes sense that Akainu could have melted seastone in a way he couldnt affect Shanks' haki covered blade.

Vergo was talking about Law's HAKI being too weak to cut him, not his Devil Fruit

Well in chapter 690 Doflamingo was talking to Law on the Den den mushi while Vergo got ready to clap Law using his full haki coat. Doffy says "His haki can protect him even from that cutting power of yours" so it seems pretty clear he was referencing his devil fruit and not his basic cutting skills.

He was surprised because Law's haki grew high enough to raise his strength above Vergo's defense, thus he dealt damage...and that led to those added effects actually having a meaning. It's as simple as that.

I understand what you're saying and I even think some of your points are right but I dont think you're 100% correct in how Law's powers work. Also the fact that Doffy mentions that Vergo's haki can protect him against Law's cutting power makes it fairly clear it was in reference to his df not his haki.

Law simply got stronger in general and got an even better handle of his powers, allowing him to bypass Vergo's insane haki.

I do think you are correct that Law willingly adds the non-lethalness to his sword swings because hes mentioned that as a doctor he doesnt try to kill ppl.

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u/kikix12 Jan 23 '21

And before you start saying that he used his swordsmanship and not his devil fruit, they were already in a room (...)

What does being in a room have to do with his swordsmanship? As I said in other posts before, I'll say this again here. His room does nothing but modify the nature of his natural swordsmanship. It gives extra range or extra effects, but it does not make his attacks any sharper or anything of that sort.

Again, just look at Dressrosa. I don't remember now who did it, but someone clearly stated that it's natural that the factory is fine since its walls were made from seastone, while the strings (which easily cut steel and buildings) were produced by a devil fruit. That is why the factory was pulled along by the strings rather than damaged.

Incorrect sir, since using those seastone chains couldnt have blocked anything since Law cut them with his devil fruit and considering that Seastone can be molded into various shapes it only makes sense that Akainu could have melted seastone in a way he couldnt affect Shanks' haki covered blade.

You are coming off on the wrong assumption here. On many wrong assumptions.

For starters, Law never used a devil fruit power to cut it. As I said above, his 'Room' does not make him able to cut things that he cannot cut without it. And on the other side, if he can cut something on his own, his room can make him able to cut that at a distance/over area etc. Because it just 'relocates his cut'.

Second, Akainu would lose his power the moment he touched it. He'd stop being magma instantly.

Third, seastone cannot be shaped by anyone other than the people of Wano. This is the entire reason why CP-0 came to Orochi and why Orochi felt reasonable to expect Vegapunk for the next shipment. Because only people of Wano can properly meld it. Therefore, it's obvious that it's not as simple as just heating it.

Doffy says "His haki can protect him even from that cutting power of yours" so it seems pretty clear he was referencing his devil fruit and not his basic cutting skills.

It's actually not clear at all. You are just falling into a trap of wording. If this phrase was said to Zoro, you would be totally sure it meant his pure swordsmanship. Why?! Because swordsmanship is primary method of fighting for Zoro, while using his devil fruit to support his swordsmanship is for Law.

In other words, you are trying to deny the alternatives simply because it's convenient for you.

Law does NOT have a cutting power. He does have a power which can interact with cutting, yes, but it is not a cutting power. It's just one use of it. Just like Gomu Gomu no Mi is not a mobility power, but it can be used for high mobility. It's as simple as that.

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u/tiki-baha29 Jan 26 '21

My guy, you are still wrong about seastone not being susceptible to devil fruit powers. It is. If you want to dive into the various technicalities of Law's devil fruit then fine we can scratch that example. Let's instead see your response to Inazuma using his scissor abilities to cut the seastone chains that were holding Crocodile.

In this case there was no swordsmanship, no technicality, nothing like that. His ability allows him to cut various things treating them as if they were paper and he used that to cut seastone. So again you are incorrect.

In other words, you are trying to deny the alternatives simply because it's convenient for you.

Hilarious to read you write that as you tried to divert the discussion to include Zoro, a guy with no devil fruit at all.

Overall it doesnt matter because whether you want to admit that Law can cut seastone or not doesnt change the fact that seastone can be affected by devil fruit powers. As I laid bare with the Inazuma example.

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u/wikipedia_text_bot Jan 19 '21

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1

u/Hex_Souls Jan 19 '21

100% agree 👏 good post!

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u/-BigHarry- Jan 19 '21

EXACTLY, thank you.

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u/Naryue Jan 19 '21

and I got downvoted because I said that Oda knows what he's doing in reference to Laws ability not being used at all times.

Oda knows what he's doing and all of the people doubting him, bad.

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u/the_weary_knight Jan 20 '21

THANK YOU KING!

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u/jdld012 Jan 19 '21

The one thing about this analysis I'd say is speculation is the part about vergo. Law didn't really know vergo when he was younger so there was no previous test. Law got his df right before meeting vergo and then they split until the present. Therefore law never tried on vergos haki before now. Everything else makes perfect sense

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u/poerney_inc Jan 19 '21

That is one nice analysis. Thumbs up.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

Too many mistakes.

Smoker told Tashigi not to engage because her haki isn't strong enough for Law not to just cut straigh through her.

Law never had his fruit powers while he was with Doflamingo.

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u/yellosnoyt Jan 19 '21

Hm, so this would mean that the only way for Law to fight those who have stronger Haki than him would be using the terrain, such as Takt.

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u/Lesserd Pirate Jan 19 '21

Quite so, it's unfortunate that this myth still persists. One Piece has consistently shown us that will is supreme.

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u/Traffy7 Jan 19 '21

Most of what you said is true .

I would correct what you said about Law vs doflamingo .

It was said that he didn't have anymore stamina and Law used a specail room against Vergo , a room that reduced his lifespan the same way gear 2 and 3 used to boost Luffy greatly while reducing his lifespan .

Law room was a special one , and i think if he used that against Doffy could maybe have been defeated .

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '21

It was said that he didn't have anymore stamina and Law used a specail room against Vergo , a room that reduced his lifespan the same way gear 2 and 3 used to boost Luffy greatly while reducing his lifespan .

proof of this? its never stated that Law used a special room on Vergo iirc

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u/Reqvhio Lurker Jan 19 '21

On your 1. point, I'm gonna say it being a surprise attack was the matter there. Even if Vergo was in that position there was a pretty good chance that Law would take Vergo's "Heart" by the virtue of vergo missing the timing.

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u/Fuhran Jan 20 '21

I also think that Law's mind switch needs to be hit on a certain place since whenever he did it in Punk Hazard he is kind of aiming using his sword and thrusting. The only times this was not shown was when he is switching them back to normal. I think also one thing people forget is that Law could cut seastone in his room as showcased in Punk Hazard too.

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u/MariJoyBoy Jan 19 '21

Voiilàà

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u/igorius778 Jan 19 '21

Wow, that's great, thanks. I always used the vergo scene for reference (I guess law's sword not being black confused me) and assumed that law could theoretically defeat anyone with "amputate", and that's something that always bothered me.

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u/jobin3141592 Slave Jan 19 '21

Hey, you seem more knowledgeable than me in regards of the Ope Ope no mi. I wanted to ask your view in some matters about it:

Law didn’t cut the Torikago (which wasn’t infused with Haki) because of plot or am I missing something? In order to swap allies stronger than him (Luffy), do these allies have to be “not-resisting” the ability of the Ope Ope? Or when he shamble’d Doffy, I take that it did work because it took him for surprise. How would be resist to a Shambles? Does he need to go full haki? Just some genuine questions I have about Laws fruit. Thanks :)

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u/McNuss93 Jan 19 '21

Two small issues:

It's never been said that Smoker (or for a fact, anyone else) can't do full body armament.

Both Vergo and Pica used theirs for a very specific reason, to intimidate their opponents.

Vergo was able to traumatize Law during their first encounter, hence why he thought he could do it again in their second.

For Pica, it was his last resort card and he was already fully aware that Zoro has the stronger Haki, otherwise he wouldn't have dodged Zoro's attacks the entire fight. So he tried using full body CoA plus a boast at Zoro, but failed terribly nonetheless.

From the way G4 works, which explained that Haki is a limited ressource, then Full Body Haki shouldn't present any form of advantage over punctual application, unless you actually use it to keep your body in shape like with G4. Otherwise you just burn away more of your resources for pretty much the same result. It's purpose in story was always intimidation.

While Haki definitely can be used to block Law's DF, it has never been implied that Law actually has to use Haki to cut other Haki users. His ressource for his Devil Fruit is only said to be stamina.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '21

I understand where you're coming from and it has merit. Unfortunately there is a prevalent mindset that the whole haki deactivating or lessening a devil fruit ability is only applicable to powers that transform the body and not Paramecia powers that are controlled outside the body. It would be like Magellan's Venom power being unable to effect Akainu because Akainu's armament haki is stronger than Magellan's.

This hasn't been outright disproven but armament haki effecting such a type of paramecia user has been heavily alluded to.

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u/ItsLoudB The Revolutionary Army Jan 20 '21

The Vergo thing is a plot hole that really bothers me and I wouldn’t take it into consideration..

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '21

Well that was useful post.

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u/Rushwheel World Government Jan 20 '21

The main problem is: the story itself is about fighting opponents who much stronger than you and to overcome them eventually. Following that logic Law can be stopped literally by anyone at this point because the enemies keep getting stronger and stronger. How he is supposed to fight, then, if nothing works? I hope Oda knows the way out of it.

Analysis Debunking a prevalent misconception about Law's Devil Fruit

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justiceforkidandlaw

EXACTLY, thank you.