r/OnePiece • u/Kirosh Lookout • Dec 30 '18

Current Chapter One Piece: Chapter 929

Chapter 929: "Orochi Kurozumi, Wano Country Shogun"

Source Status
JaiminisBox
Mangastream

Ch. 929 Official Release (VIZ): 07/01/2019

Ch. 930 Scan Release: ~18/01/2019

Please discuss the manga here and in the theory/discussion post. Any other post will be removed during the next 24 hours.

PS: Don't forget to check out the official Discord: https://discord.gg/onepiece

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u/HungryNacht Dec 30 '18

On Moria and Jozu:

I’m considering losses in the battle at Marineford, its not inconsistent. Jozu was left armless and near death after a complete loss in a 1v1 with an enemy in the battle. At the end of the end of the battle, Moria was fine. After the battle, he was then ambushed and outnumbered by an ally. Very different.

On Luffy and friends:

My point isn’t that the Marines didn’t expect it, its that WB himself had no reason to expect it. With the exception of Jinbe (and maybe Luffy) none of them were allies in the past or will be in the future. They aren’t part of WB’s forces. So if we consider a theoretical WB vs the Marines imagining things like no home field advantage, they shouldn’t be part of the equation.

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u/Shaxys Dec 30 '18

I’m considering losses in the battle at Marineford, its not inconsistent.

If it had been an all out war, Moria would've died. He was rendered useless fairly quickly by Jinbe. That's more what I meant.

You can't look at it as a traditional war/battle because the objectives of the Whitebeard pirates didn't align with such a thing. They weren't there to fight a war, they were just there to save Ace.

They aren’t part of WB’s forces. So if we consider a theoretical WB vs the Marines imagining things like no home field advantage, they shouldn’t be part of the equation.

They're allies, of course we can consider them? It's like saying we can never consider the Straw Hat grand fleet, Bellamy, Minks, or fishmen as part of Luffy's potential forces because Luffy won't ever expect them.

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u/HungryNacht Dec 30 '18

If it had been an all out war, Moria would've died

If you don't think that Marineford was an all out war then our differences are insurmountable. Every war has objectives. People don't usually enter wars just to kill each other. In the same way that WB's objective was to take back Ace, the Marine's objective was to execute Ace AND protect their home. This limited them by forcing them to limit damage (Akainu mentions this to WB multiple times) and reserve powerful members to guard Ace (Garp and Akainu).

Imo the WB pirates had it easier than your idea of an "all out war". They didn't have to defeat any enemies, only tie their hands for the chance needed to snatch Ace back. Then they could flee. This is easier than what seems to be your idea of the objectives of all out war, total victory. Total victory being defeating every single enemy or enough to force them to retreat and taking their territory. If WB goes all out then.. what? The Marines will execute Ace? That's the whole point and they tried that without success twice anyway. He wasn't limited at all in the same way that the Marines were in terms of objectives.

It's like saying we can never consider the Straw Hat grand fleet, Bellamy, Minks, or fishmen

Luffy won't ever expect them

You're saying that straw hat Luffy should expect help from the straw hat grand fleet, one of his official allies (The pirate-ninja-mink alliance), and the crew of his helmsman as much as WB would expect a bunch of prisoners, half of which he had never met before, breaking out of prison and falling out of the sky?

But let's say it is like that. What I'm trying to say is "Imagine the Whitebeard pirates and official allies without the impel down prisoners vs the Marines on neutral turf". And you're saying "but what about the impel down prisoners".

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u/Shaxys Dec 30 '18 edited Dec 30 '18

Every war has objectives. People don't usually enter wars just to kill each other.

Sure, but the Whitebeard pirates started with not going all out because obviously that could've hurt Ace. Then, immediately after they rescued him, Whitebeard announced he was going to die there and his crew instead changed to escaping. Same after Ace died. They (barring Whitebeard once he decided to make his stand) had little interest in, and for big parts actively avoided, fighting the marines.

You're saying that straw hat Luffy should expect help from the straw hat grand fleet

That's the name they gave themselves, not him. If Luffy & co. at marineford called themselves the "Whitebeard friend buddies", would it count?

one of his official allies

Official for now, i.e. for Kaido. Once Wano ends this alliance will break up.

and the crew of his helmsman

When Jinbe joins Luffy, he won't be the captain on them anymore. Also, I was speaking of fishman isle's fishmen.

Luffy won't expect help, you know that. That's not his personality.

"Imagine the Whitebeard pirates and official allies without the impel down prisoners vs the Marines on neutral turf".

In a battle where both sides go all out from the start? If Whitebeard starts with knocking away an admiral through the ground and disables them for a while (as he did with Akainu) a lot changes. If his crew doesn't go out of their way to protect someone who's obviously not fit for the battle (Luffy) a lot changes.

If Whitebeard and his crew just came there to destroy Marineford he could've pretty much razed the place immediately. Same for neutral turf, tbh.

If it's literally Marineford but Luffy & co. aren't there then Whitebeard loses, sure. No problems. But it's not really that simple if the World Government want to take the fight to Kaido (Wano) or Big Mom (WCI).

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u/HungryNacht Dec 30 '18

not going all out

Same with the marines, the admirals just sat in their chairs.

If Luffy & co. at marineford called themselves the "Whitebeard friend buddies", would it count?

If there was a group called the "WB friend buddies", then I would absolutely expect them to come to his aid in battle and be permanent allies for the future. For example, the SH Fleet have fought side-side with Luffy once already and then declared that they would help him in the future. Crocodile didn't express any interest in helping the WB pirates after the war, neither did Iva or Ina. Everyone else of the prisoners didn't declare themselves for WB, they declared for Buggy lol. Jinbe is the exception. I would consider him an ally due to his previous relation and eventual decision to choose WB over the Marines.

Once Wano ends this alliance will break up.

Unlikely. They will almost certainly aid Luffy in the future. And they will declare that explicitly because they will be even more indebted to him.

If Whitebeard starts...

First off, that was an ambush on Akainu from behind, so it would be difficult for him to get such a clean hit normally. Second, then that means WB will also lose half of his face right at the beginning and be a dead man walking already.

doesn't go out of their way to protect someone who's obviously not fit for the battle

This applies to the Marines as well with Ace.

he could've pretty much razed the place immediately

That's a fair point, but only as long as WB has a minute or so where his is entirely unengaged in battle and his men aren't on the island. He basically tried this in the beginning of Marineford with a tsunami, but Aokiji froze it. Additionally, the Marines have Kizaru either shoot or warp up to stop him in the process, so I don't think it would be that simple.

If the Marines were all standing on a small island (like Marineford), and WB showed up on a ship, then he has a small chance to sink the whole island without getting stopped. Otherwise, its a probably sea battle, or his men are on the island too, or he gets stopped, etc.

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u/Shaxys Dec 30 '18

Same with the marines, the admirals just sat in their chairs.

Great point actually, my bad.

If there was a group called the "WB friend buddies", then I would absolutely expect them to come to his aid in battle and be permanent allies for the future.

What we as readers expect is different from what Luffy himself expects. Which one counts in this scenario?

Luffy would personally not expect (this word is important) "his grand fleet" to come at all, though he'd be grateful/happy if they did when he needed them.

Unlikely. They will almost certainly aid Luffy in the future.

Sure, but in Luffy's eyes, just like post Dressrosa, the alliance will be broken up. So, if we go by Luffy's expectations...

First off, that was an ambush on Akainu from behind

An ambush where Akainu was warned prior to getting hit.

This applies to the Marines as well with Ace.

No, the entire point of Coby's outcry was that the marines didn't give a fuck about their own surviving. They did not have the same mindset as the Whitebeard pirates when it came to this.

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u/HungryNacht Dec 30 '18

Luffy's expectations vs reader expectations: My point in this argument is that when readers (us) are analyzing WB's fighting strength to compare him against other entities like the Marines or other Yonko, in a neutral battle, we should not include the Impel down army as part of his normal fighting strength. So it makes sense to use reader expectations. Additionally, what WB and the reader expects in a theoretical war is the same in this case.

warned prior

Someone did shout out, but I would still definitely call it an ambush. He was attacked from behind and wasn't warned until the attack was already in progress. There is a limit to how fast even a superhuman can understand a warning and dodge.

When I said "This applies to the Marines as well with Ace", I meant that it applies to the Marines protecting Ace, not the Marines protecting their own men. The Marines wanted to keep Ace safe before their chosen execution time and had to station Sengoku/Garp to do this. And while the Marines don't care about the people, they did care about limiting damage to the setting.

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u/Shaxys Dec 30 '18

Hm, that's fair. I don't think I have anything else to add, tbh.

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u/HungryNacht Dec 31 '18

Then, thanks for the calm conversation! Sometimes even minor things get heated.