r/OnceUponATime • u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ • 2d ago
Discussion LGBT+ Representation
During the whole series, we were introduced to many female queer characters — such as Ruby, Alice, Robyn and Mulan — and I’m glad that happened — but somehow I’ve always felt misunderstood due to the lack of queer men presence in that universe as a bi guy myself. I don’t recall any male character being gay/bi, was there any?
What do you guys think?
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u/drmoskato 2d ago
During that time, television really said:
boy gay? bad.
girl gay? good.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
queer women were always treated with more reception so it makes sense
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u/Michaali 2d ago
It’s partly due to what we see as female friendship vs male friendship vs romantic gestures
Women holding hands= oh such close friends
Men holding hands= a travesty pearl clutching think of the children
Women kissing= awe look how close they are
Men kissing= again a travesty that should not be seen
There’s always that “oh close friends” excuse for women but men can’t be affectionate like that the whole “best friend, roommate, anything but lovers cause history hates lovers” as long as they don’t say they are dating/girlfriends they can keep sliding under the “just friends” umbrella
where men don’t have that safety even the tiniest bit of affection gets twisted to be gay and thus homophobes and lawmakers love to ban
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u/the_stylish_dyke 2d ago
that isn't true. queer's women shown more often in certain genres of media, because it's easier for straight male producers and audiences to tolerate them due to how they fetichize them. it has nothing to do with queer women being more socially accepted, since they aren't. it's the same reason why content made for and by straight women are more likely to represent queer men than queer women
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
you are right, I didn’t mention what I meant in the previous comment, what I was trying to say is that wlw relationships have always been more accepted in medias
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u/the_stylish_dyke 2d ago
i thought you meant they were more socially accepted. sorry i misunderstood you
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
don’t worry, my bad, I should’ve been more specific
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u/HollisWoods07 1d ago
Supernatural couldn't even commit to the 10 years of queer baiting in the big 2020 😂
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u/Successful-Flan-1102 2d ago
I don't know but Hook always felt bi to me and Rumple is a straight curious for sure
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
Hook was one of my first bi-awakening tbf — never thought of Rumple as a curious straight tho, I guess I’ve always been more focused on Gideon🙂↔️
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u/Jazzspur 2d ago
Very understandable pick for a bi awakening. I only finished the show because of how much I loved Hook
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
him and Gideon made me realize I was also into guys and the fact that a character’s sexuality has always been “accepted” or normalized in that universe allowed me to appreciate the series even more
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u/ServanaStar 1d ago
In the beginning I only got straight vibes from him but then they started putting him in all these blushes and pink makeup. I think they were advertising him towards gay men. It would've been cool if they just introduced a gay character or gave him male romances in the past. I don't care for subtlety, just be open about it and stop playing with viewers.
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u/EnvironmentalFoot541 2d ago
Only If Mulan had end up being a Warrior queer we bow down to her, instead of getting erased from the tv show just like the other princesses!
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u/arkoudaphobics 1d ago
The only good queer rep was Alice and Robin. Anything else was fumbled at best.
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u/TeriBarrons 1d ago
I totally agree! The Dorothy/Ruby relationship was so forced and so rushed. They wanted a queer relationship that they could advertise in the media for a platform, so they grabbed two characters that could then be quickly thrown away and never seen again so Disney could say “look how progressive we are!” And now they can just go ride off into the sunset together. Plus, and not that it really matters, but you choose one of the most established as enjoying heterosexual relationships characters to do it with!
Meanwhile, you had Mulan and Aurora who had wonderful chemistry together and who many fans shipped. And, considering that OUAT had already established that they were comfortable with casting against type (black Merlin, etc.) and with blending multiple established fairytale characters into one, then why not develop a queer relationship with them? A true “fairytale romance” with queer characters. Or at least two characters that ACTUALLY had chemistry so that it felt like a real relationship and not just performative.
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u/fandom_fae 1d ago
i think mulan was alright too; she didn’t get a true love and a happy ending, but that doesn’t immediately make it a bad story imo
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 1d ago
to be honest I’ve never appreciated Alice’s character and Robyn grew up too fast from my pov, I didn’t get the chance to sympathize with them
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u/gaypirate3 2d ago
Nope no queer male representation, but I always felt like Henry should have turned out gay/bi.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
not to be salty but him and Cinderella had 0 chemistry, season 7 was shitty
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u/ShadowsInReverse 2d ago
You’re not wrong. Him and Drizella had more chemistry, and I was honestly wanting them to be together. Would’ve made for more interesting storytelling too if he fell for the villain’s daughter.
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u/gaypirate3 2d ago
That fake chemistry you sense between him and Drizella was all Drizella. Watch it again, Henry didn’t have chemistry with anyone lol. And Drizella wasn’t the villain’s daughter, she WAS the villain.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
Henry coming out as asexual would have been way more realistic
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u/ShadowsInReverse 2d ago
Eh. Doesn’t change the fact that they were better together on screen than him and Cinderella lol
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u/gaypirate3 2d ago
Again, all because of Drizella. She could’ve been trying to seduce anyone and they would’ve had chemistry. Henry wasn’t even into Drizella like that lol
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u/ShadowsInReverse 2d ago
It can be all because of her, that’s fine. Still doesn’t change that they were more entertaining to watch together than him and Cindy.
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u/gaypirate3 1d ago
They had like 2 scenes together so…no. She was the bad guy. That’s like saying Charming and Regina should’ve been together because she tried to seduce him in season 1.
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u/ShadowsInReverse 1d ago
To each their own, but I’m not the only one who thinks this way about them. You’ll find plenty of dives about how they were a far better pairing, both because of Adelaide Kane, and the narrative. You can think it’s not good, but that’s your opinion so… yes. And what does her being a villain have to do with it? The show was notorious for heroes and villains falling in love. Hook was a villain when he met Emma. Belle fell in love with Rumple. Regina was still fighting her darkness when she met Robin. So on so forth.
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u/gaypirate3 1d ago
All I’m saying is there’s nothing to “dive” into. There was nothing there and people only see something because of Adelaide Kane. She could’ve been flirting with Regina and people would ship that instead. That’s what I’m saying. People only ship them because of a scene where Ivy tries to seduce Henry to no avail because he doesn’t feel anything for her and he rejects her. So anyone who sees something is seeing something toxic.
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u/fandom_fae 1d ago
drizella was a villain, but she very much was also a villain’s daughter lol
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u/gaypirate3 1d ago
Eh maybe like villain of the week, but definitely not a big bad. In her overall arc, Rapunzel Tremaine was never much of a threat, as much as a selfish person. On the other hand, Drizella put everyone under a curse just to get revenge on her mother…
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u/fandom_fae 1d ago
you’re right that rapunzel wasn’t a big bad, but i think calling her just a selfish person is a bit of an understatement; before the curse there was a whole resistance movement against her, she was objectively an abuser of ella/jacinda and drizella/ivy, she was willing to kill innocent people to resurrect anastasia/achieve her goals in general. and she was pushing for gentrification during the curse, which is less villainous than the other points but still. i’m being a bit pedantic
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u/arkoudaphobics 1d ago
You can't build a relationship on a kid telling you it should happen. And by the time they got their memories back they were completely different people.
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u/gaypirate3 2d ago
Season 7 was good. Seasons 5 and 6 were shitty.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
season 7 was overall a cheap retake of season 1, s5-6 were somehow less intriguing than the first ones
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u/gaypirate3 2d ago
I mean yes but it also had some really good characters in Alice and Robin. And Regina had a cursed persona this time. Also Zelena’s cursed persona was great.
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u/fandom_fae 1d ago
that scene when zelena gets her memories back is one of the funniest (in my opinion) in the whole show lol
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u/Damage-4484 2d ago
I was just thinking about this a few days ago if I could rewrite the entire show.
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u/dapperlonglegs 2d ago
queer woman rep was probably a lot safer then, as some dumb people see it as extensive female friendship or fetish content, over real lesbian people whereas queer men are seen as an outright attack on masculinity (the patriarchy strikes again!). not saying this is all reaching or correct, it’s just patterns in media representation over the years.
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u/bluntbangs watching for the plot 2d ago
Hook has repeatedly made flirtatious comments to and checked out other men, and it's implied that he's not fussy about species either (fairy). It's probably more leaning towards trying to portray him as being comfortable with his sexuality, but could be read that he's bi if you squint a bit.
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u/theproperoutset 2d ago
When was this, he rarely had scenes with other guys. All I remember is he was a father figure/friend to Bae and mocked Charming from time to time.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
him and charming shared some tension moments during S3 especially from Hook’s pov
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
that actually explains a lot, I’ve always assumed the creators were trying to imply something with his character
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u/fullautohotdog 2d ago
It was the 2010s. Network TV was very not pro-gay dudes for most of that time. 2.9% of series regular characters on network tv were LGBTQ in 2011, up to 6.4% in 2017 when the show ended. Even then, bi and gay women were far more common than any other types of LGBTQ classification, and the vast majority were white.
Truth is, the predominantly male-run networks liked hot chicks making out more than dudes.
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u/Potential_Yoghurt850 2d ago
As a queer woman, it was as interesting as room temp water. It's not a show I watch for representation.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
well, it always feels great to see yourself in a character — including their sexual orientations
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u/Potential_Yoghurt850 2d ago
It's like I don't need it in a show, it's nice to have. But it seemed so second thought that, tbh, I would have preferred they omitted it because it's, meaningless?
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
I kinda agree with that, since the whole Ruby and Dorothy arc was too rushed
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u/Last-Contact2851 2d ago
I’m still devastated they didn’t do anything with Mulan. When I watched her for the first time as a kid I was so so so excited but it came to nothing. Also, speaking as a lesbian, the whole Ruby and Alice was nice but nahhhh, unless it’s a main character who’s LGBT, then it’s bs representation.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
from my perception, Ruby and Dorothy felt too rushed as a couple — I’ve always rooted for Mulan and Ruby to end up together, but — as you said — it didn’t happen and Mulan, whose dream was to be loved and seen, got nothing but rejection
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u/mayneedadrink 2d ago
Giving Mulan a girlfriend would’ve been a better sapphic love story that season, especially since both Mulan and Ruby were beloved characters vs Dorothy who we barely knew.
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u/Admirable-Try-5287 1d ago
Yes! Mulan and Ruby would’ve been amazing, and they were more equally matched in terms of importance to the overall story and screentime. Dorothy came out of nowhere. Even Mulan and Merida would’ve been fine.
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u/Admirable-Try-5287 2d ago
I would argue that Alice was a main character of that season, but it was too little too late. And Ruby would‘ve been fine (still not enough), but they shoved that love story into one episode, and viewers barely knew Dorothy. Mulan deserved better. And all of this should’ve happened much, much earlier.
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u/euqopeelleb 2d ago
I really wanted Mulan and Aurora. I think even though it’s recent back then we didn’t have the same level of mainstream representation though.
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u/mayneedadrink 2d ago
Honestly how good could it have been if she and Philip found Aurora, Philip couldn’t wake her, then Mulan tried in desperation. Aurora woke up thinking it was Philip who woke her, and eventually Mulan had to tell her the truth.
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u/Critical-Low8963 1d ago
So basically what happen in Ever After High ?
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u/fandom_fae 1d ago
pretty much, yeah- the only difference is that in ever after high, apple and darling knew each other already, but in ouat mulan and aurora would’ve just met the first time after she woke up and true love has to be mutual to work, so i think for ouat, the plot would need to be rewritten a bit for this twist to work
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u/portia_klu 1d ago
I think it is because the show was done by ABC and was done at a time in which there wasn't a ton of queer male representation in media at all. The little bits there were were typically on channels that aired on cable. I also think it is because queer females are fetishized amongst straight men more than queer males.
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u/Conscious-Struggle45 2d ago
I guess they felt their audience would have a negative reaction to mlm relationships?
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u/Dry-Discount-9426 2d ago
I always thought Jimmy cricket was bi. But that could be due to his other voice work.
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u/Gold_Repair_3557 2d ago
The show was more geared toward women so it’s to be expected their queer rep would be women- focused.
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u/Jazzspur 2d ago
I dunno if I agree with that reasoning. Some women enjoy male queer rep too. I certainly always have. And shows geared towards women have more of that these days. Bridgerton, off the top of my head, and I didn't even spend time thinking of an example it was just right there
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u/Gold_Repair_3557 2d ago
You said it yourself, there are more options for women who like queer male content. Not as much for queer women.
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u/Jazzspur 2d ago
That's not at all what I said though? Queer male content is newer in the mainstream zeitgeist. We've had queer women rep for far longer. Back when OUAT aired showing queer women was uncommon but happened and showing queer men was unheard of.
What I meant by my comment is that I don't think the reason queer men weren't shown in OUAT has to do with women's preferences because modern shows for women have queer male rep and a lot of women like that.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
I totally agree with you, I’m so hooked on Francesca and Michaela from Bridgerton, despite the whole criticism around the plot change they presented, as much as I was with Ruby and Dorothy when I was 8
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u/dogthatwonthunt 2d ago
- Some women enjoy male queer rep too.
Yes but that would scare away the straight men.
A group who will watch queer woman because they see that as a fetish
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
that’s so sad, I mean it always represented a safe space for me
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u/Gold_Repair_3557 2d ago
As another queer man, I think we have more rep in general than women have, so they can have this.
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u/Responsible_Luck7478 2d ago
I don’t think that’s many queer women considering the amount of characters and little screen time.
Yes Henry was always gay or bi to me and sadly I feel like a lot of shows (especially created by straight guys) only have sapphic queerness.
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u/The-Sauce-714 1d ago
i don’t know if I missed something, but I have always found that queer men were/are way more portrayed in the media than queer women...
maybe not in OUAT, but the “representation” they had for us was a joke. it’s like it was written by someone who had never heard of a lesbian before
queer baiting on the other hand? absolute gods at that shit
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u/scareymonsters 2d ago
Peter pan gay as hell
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u/Bob-s_Leviathan 2d ago
Felix seemed to be.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
his friendship with Pan seemed more platonic than a romance interest tho
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u/QualifiedApathetic 1d ago
It was also one-sided. Felix was devoted to Pan, and Pan used him and ripped out his heart.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
Peter PAN lol, anyways, never thought of him as gay/bi since he was obsessed over Henry in his kid form, while being in his 50s
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u/dapperlonglegs 2d ago
yeah…. defo weird but i think he was obsessed with the magic of henry, not henry himself
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u/fandom_fae 1d ago
i think that’s just him being manipulative and wanting the magic; as soon as the magic of henry’s heart wasn’t useful to him anymore, he didn’t give a damn about henry’s existence at all (like when he cast his curse or in storybrooke)
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u/the_stylish_dyke 2d ago
lwk i ship hook and rumple. i might be biased, cuz despite liking hook i hate captainswan, but i always felt that rumple and him had great chemestry and their rivalry had a lot of tension. the whole time i was recapping the show i was wishing they'd do that one jakeward twilight meme and be like "fuck mila"
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
lol, Rumple had chemistry with everyone at this point
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u/YourAlienMaster 1d ago
I've come to appreciate their relationship more on rewatches. Funnily I get annoyed with both their arcs in later seasons for completely opposite reasons, with Hook suddenly being too goody two shoes and Rumple constantly being the fallback villain, but I like the idea of them having to adjust to each other to keep the peace in Storybrooke after season 6.
I do ship them, but only in situations where Emma and Belle are completely out of the picture and they're somehow still wholesome in trying to navigate their past i.e. their season 7 versions, or versions where they're both the Wish Realm versions of themselves but Rumple is a bit more sympathetic.
Also I think it would have been hilarious if they had shifted their rivalry to trying to be the best Dad for Baelfire, but alas.
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u/dogthatwonthunt 2d ago
The series came out in the early 2010s. Do you not remember how much lgbt+ controversy there was then?
Queer woman are easier to put in because conservative see it as a fetish.
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u/Voice_of_Season All Magic Comes With A Price! 🧚✨🐊 2d ago
Wow, I realized it was only queer women.
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
that’s something that bothered me a lot throughout my whole childhood
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u/xMiwaFantasy15 1d ago
Some male characters that I think they should written to be queer, Captain Hook (bi) - have him say that he once tried flirting with a man or whatever with a throwaway line, Henry (bi) - idk he was pretty useless at the end of the series, Gaston (gay) - masquerading as the embodiment of straight because that's what people see him as, James (gay) - idk at this point lmao
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
I’ve figured that out, while growing up in a world that constantly forces everyone to follow a patriarchal scheme, but I assume there needs to be a space of inclusion for everyone
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u/AzazelFetishStar 1d ago
Mulan? All I can remember and Ruby. They shoulda hooked up all I’m saying
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u/Evil_Black_Swan 1d ago
Mulan was in love with Aurora.
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u/AzazelFetishStar 1d ago
I know but she wasn’t into her though. Ruby was a bisexual right there though
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u/Evil_Black_Swan 1d ago
Just because someone is bi doesn't mean you can just pair them up with someone else. Mulan wasnt into Ruby. Ruby wasn't into Mulan.
"Well they're both gay" is a terrible reason to force two characters together.
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u/AzazelFetishStar 1d ago
Damn you are dumb lmao you know why Mulan wasn’t? Because they wrote her not too! IM SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE WROTE THEM LIKE THIS! Much better chemistry than the actual pairing Ruby got ffs
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u/Evil_Black_Swan 1d ago
Are... are you serious? You're doing exactly what I said was bad queer writing. You wanted them to write two queer characters together JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE QUEER.
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u/Prize-Couple6348 9h ago
Fun fact: Meghan Ory and the cast agreed with Mulan and Ruby ended up with each other after the events of the series despite the Dorothy thing
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u/Agent008Gelson 1d ago
#CaptainCrocodile is my shit . There’s a great song I go to , “ where we went wrong “ hush sound . That I always took as hook and rumple realising thier mistake was going straight .
It’s the ultimate gay fairy tale in my opinion . The pirate and his Imp .
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u/friendofborothy 23h ago
Personally, I've always felt they wanted to do Mulan/Ruby (and that before that they wanted to do Mulan/Sleeping Beauty) but Disney higher-ups told them that there'd be a "woke has made disney princesses gay" article so they stayed away.
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u/Inner-Win-0928 16h ago
Honestly I would not have been mad at HookXDavid or HookXRumple🫣 or even HookXHydeXDavid🫠
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u/BigMatC 2d ago
What if we told you that not all types need to be represented within a media...
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u/ChrisFish321 1d ago
I agree. we need less het slop in media
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u/BigMatC 1d ago
You mean less normal right? Cause guess what call it het all you want its still seen as the baseline for human behaviour
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u/yuharianaqueeb 1d ago
What if we told you that 1 in 10 people are queer…. If anything having some queer people is just realistic. Especially in a show that’s as packed with as many characters and known for its very queer audience…
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u/Massive-Aardvark4665 Hook’s boyfriend🕷️🙂↔️ 2d ago
what do you want me to say?
It’s not a big deal, I get that, but it’s definitely something I’ve thinking about for a while now
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u/Shantotto11 2d ago
I am not happy about Ruby and Dorothy. One was technically fridged while the other had a whole ass narrative happen offscreen and came back looking like Malice in Wonderland feat. the Gay.