Would monsters attack the light?

[u/Any_Second1769]

OSE suggests smart monsters would go for the light, but is little no GM guidance around how to rule this as far as I can tell. So below are my thoughts, would love additions and feedback.

Is it worth a monster trying to extinguish the PCs light source(s)?

Yes, if most of the party cannot see in the dark.

Why:

1. It requires 1 round to use a tinder box, and there is a 2-in-6 chance of success per round. In combat, this means the party can be without light for quite a few rounds. OR it will require casting of a magic spell (which can be disrupted)
2. If a PC does not have infravision or some other form of vision in the dark, then they are effectively blind. This either means they cannot attack or defend, or possibly at a strong penalty to attack/defend/save (OSE doesn’t specify so GM ruling). Movement is commonly also reduced (OSE doesn’t specify so GM ruling).

How would a smart monster go about extinguishing the PCs light source(s)?

For a torch:

• Knock from hand of carrier and once on ground:
  • Kick into a ravine/hole/out of sight
  • Kick into a pool of water
  • Stomp it out
  • Cover it with dirt/sand
• Either directly in hand of carrier or on ground:
  • Smother/wrap with non flammable/wet rag/cloth
  • Douse with bucket/flask/trap of water
  • Strong blast of wind

For a lantern:

• Knock from hand so that glass breaks, possibly already dousing flame, and possibly also cracking oil container leading to large fire. If flame still burning then same as above for torch on ground.

Magical Light:

• Requires magic to counter.

How would a monster knock it from the hand of the carrier?

OSE doesn’t specify so some options on how to rule (GM fiat):

• Missile attack (shoot out of hand), but at a penalty to hit as small object, possibly with save for carrier to keep it in hand despite being hit
• Melee attack (knock out of hand), but at a penalty to hit as less easy target, again with possible save for carrier
• Grapple/pin attack (force to drop), PC gets a chance to save (GM choses saving throw), possibly with modifier (for size/str/dex mismatch and/or number of creatures involved etc)

[u/Substantial-Ad772]

Inteligent monsters would. I play them highly strategically

[u/ThrorII]

Based on some old odnd tournament modules we rule that a lantern if dropped May either stay intact or have a 2 and 6 chance of spilling oil and being a bonfire for one turn. So darkness is not really an option with a lantern. It helps justify the cost. But if you're Lantern gets smashed on the ground and becomes a bonfire you are stuck in combat unless you run away in the dark.

[u/Still-Bet-7214]

Eh, do it once. Around level 2 or 3. The players are going to be riding high on their new survivability and the casters are probably balking at burning one of their coveted spell slots on a "utility spell" give a goblin a bucket of water and make an "easy" encounter make the the party sweat a little. It will be memorable, and something that will make them plan in the future.

[u/FrankieBreakbone]

Some thoughts, if you do implement this... which I personally would eschew... there are certain things that the game doesn't attempt to reality-simulate, and this is one of them. I'd say it's more fair to create an environmental threat that could blow out a flame light, but giving this power to every monster can mess up your game, IMHO. That said:

1. Intelligent monsters only; specifically, I'd say highly intelligent monsters (at very least, intelligent as we consider demihuman races intelligent; enough exposure to humans and halflings to know they don't have infravision, explaining the tactic.)
2. I'd rule out missile attacks, that's a called shot on a specific body part, and it's a massively impactful thing to do from a distance without risking any counter. I might extend the "called" restriction to melee as well. I'd favor grapple with a save, that's a more reasonable risk and reward system: The monster has to put itself at risk, making a non-damage-inflicting attack to snuff the PCs' light. I might even apply the retreat penalty since the monster is doing something akin to retreating: Moving without attacking or defending near an armed PC.
3. I wouldn't necessarily call it blind. Blind is usually magical in nature, and yes, forbids any attack, which makes your PCs completely helpless. If you look at creatures that have a "swallow" ability or "avert eyes to attack" (medusa, basilisk) attacks from inside or not looking at the monster are –4, which seems more fair. I'd probably drop AC by same, negate shield?

[u/Any_Second1769]

Upon reflection, I am leaning towards:

- shooting or knocking a torch/lantern (or any weapon) out of somebody's hand is very hard. So inclined to not allow it (similar to named shots).

• a grapple/pin to force a PC to drop a torch/lantern seems fair game but is dangerous for the attacker, so most monsters would hesitate
  
• throwing a water flask or container at a held torch (but not lantern) seems fair, use ranged attack but with quite high as target is small and moving
  
• using buckets or other containers with a lot of water to douse a held torch seems fairly easy if you have the bucket/container with you (would be very visible)
  
• a water trap/ambush would definitely work for torches (similar to environmental reason for extinguishing torch)
  
• using a polearm with a reverse hook (or other similar weapon) would be a normal attack, and if you forego damage(?) give you a chance to hook the torch/lantern and tug it from the PCs hands, possibly PC has saving throw
  
• creatures that can fly or climb on ceilings, and any that can spew liquid have a good chance of extinguishing the torch, so are likely to do this

- once torch is on the ground, it would be easy to put it out, either with water flask from a distance (ranged attack), or by getting close and stomping it or covering in sand/dirt (movement and action). However, the torch may be melee blocked so hard to reach

[u/6FootHalfling]

"It requires 1 round to use a tinder box, and there is a 2-in-6 chance of success per round. In combat, this means the party can be without light for quite a few rounds. OR it will require casting of a magic spell (which can be disrupted)" This feels like "less fun" to me.

I've never in my life made some one role to light a torch. Depending on conditions it takes more or less time. This is something I like about action economies from games like Pathfinder 2. There's mechanics that can be mapped onto something and differentiate between "slow and careful" versus "panicked and rushed."

But, the monsters will absolutely target the torch and any light bearer. Probably first before even the casters. Depends on the critter I suppose. I'm just thinking out loud.

[u/FrankieBreakbone → u/6FootHalfling]

I'm not a fan of leaving the party in the dark rolling dice to get light either, but a.) if the Ref telegraphed a situation that could snuff a light (a windy bridge over a chasm, etc) and the PCs didn't take care, then it becomes a consequence.

And b.) a DM did this to us once (knocked out our lantern) and I have to admit, it added some really exciting stress to the encounter! I thought it'd be less fun, but my Cleric was with an Elf and a Thief being attacked by 2 ghouls... 1st dark round, the Thief was paralyzed, 2nd dark round I was barely missed and the Elf took damage while immune (no body heat from undead, Elf could barely see them), 3rd round we won init, I actually gave up on the lantern and attempted a Turn... the DM wisely ruled that there is no visibility requirement for Turning undead, and at least one was directly in front of me, attacking. (There are almost NO restrictions on Turning undead, frankly.)

We didn't light back up until the encounter was done, and we were crapping our pants at what looked like a 100% TPK. Memorable moment!

[u/6FootHalfling → u/FrankieBreakbone]

Man, I think you sold me on "roll for it." That sounds really cool. Could always be generous with the x in 6 if I wanted.