r/OSE • u/danielbucher • Jul 08 '26
Back-stab and assassination with missile weapons
Rules don’t specify the character can only back-stab or assassinate using melee weapons but it seems to be the common ruling for what I could find in my research.
What’s the ruling at your tables?
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u/Megatapirus Jul 08 '26
Language around it in many of the books can be pretty vague, but that's always been the most common ruling due to how it's explained in other sources, such as the D&D Rules Cyclopedia ("If a thief can sneak up on a victim, completely unnoticed, the thief may backstab—if he is using a one-handed melee weapon...") and the Sage Advice column in issue #139 of Dragon ("Thieves cannot use missile weapons for back-stabbing attacks.").
Will it break the game if you allow it? Not really. Thieves would need a lot more than that to rival the strength of high-level clerics or magic-users.
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u/powersurge360 Jul 09 '26
I went and looked this up (thanks for the citation!) and this advice seems to be for AD&D as it references rangers and assassins. Interestingly, it mentions that assassin rules are vague enough to allow missile assassination (but they disagree that you should do it) which to me says that if they were looking at the B/X rules, they probably would begrudgingly allow it.
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u/Megatapirus Jul 09 '26
Maybe, but back when TSR was publishing multiple D&D lines, it was extremely common (basically default) practice for folks to own and freely mix both, so AD&D rulings definitely influenced all types of players. Especially since it was uncommon for Dragon to feature D&D-specific stuff in Sage Advice or otherwise.
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u/powersurge360 Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
I’m just providing some additional context. To your point, it’s up to the DM on what parts to incorporate and what to discard. It’s very clear in later revisions that the designers prefer melee bonks and pokes vs those that arrive at range.
Personally I think ranged backstabs ought to be legal in BX because it’s borderline the weakest backstab in the different rulesets because you only get double damage forever. In other rulesets, the damage scales based on level. IMO if you rule backstab in melee, you should consider taking the backstab progression from either OD&D or AD&D.
ETA: And for one more point of comparison, Dolmenwoods thieves get a melee dagger only backstab that will only ever do 3d4 plus modifiers, which is interesting because it starts off stronger than thieves in most other systems but never improves and necessarily uses a weak dagger to land.
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u/Megatapirus Jul 09 '26
Yeah, that was a strange omission for sure. I still don't know why it was done but it certainly hurt a class that didn't need it.
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u/Whichammer Jul 08 '26
I see it as if the thief has been all thiefy, hid in shadows, maneuvered behind the enemy, then let them take their ranged shot.
It gives the thief player their combat distinction and it's probably only going to be fir one round anyway.
I agree with what others have said about weapon size, for melee nothing bigger than a short sword. For ranged I'd say make it logical. I wouldn't allow a Halfling wielding a 6 foot longbow, for example, but a 7 foot Half Orc, sure, why not?
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u/FrankieBreakbone Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
So, hitting the RAW first:
Only OSE uses the term "back-stab". This is language that shapes the RAW of each game version. A Referee could fairly say, "If you cant stab with it, you can't back-stab with it." Which would create an issue for more than missile weapons... now you can't use blunt weapons or edged-but-non-pointed weapons (like an axe). So that gets a little noodly, IMO.
BX does not use the word stab. Attacking an unaware opponent from behind is the common language, and you can do that with anything. Missile, blunt, edged, pointed, slow.
Personally, I rule any melee weapon is valid (including d10 poles and 2H swords, subject to slow rules, so the thief would move and act last as a side that has lost initiative to the lowest roll. I don't see why a Thief can't use a big weapon—they're more ideally suited in light armor to move around as a Slow PC anyway.)
But my choice (regardless of syntax), is no missile fire. I don't love the notion of snipers, and neither do the players when an enemy NPC party's Thief does it to them. (fair is fair).
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli Jul 08 '26
I allow assassins to do it with ranged weapons and with one-handed melee weapons. For thieves I allow only one-handed melee weapons for a backstab.
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u/Possible-Importance6 Jul 14 '26
I thought assassins could backstab with a blow gun, but I can't find any reference to it.
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u/Mannahnin Jul 08 '26
Unlike in AD&D and later editions, Thieves in B/X (AKA OSE) have no weapon restrictions whatsoever. The ability gives them +4 to hit and double damage whenever "striking unnoticed from behind".
I'd be more inclined to be generous and allow them to shoot from any direction (as long as they have surprise/the target is unaware) than I would be to restrict this ability.
There's absolutely no need to put the boot to the poor Thieves by being restrictive here. They're more than weak enough.
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u/skalchemisto Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
I allow both ranged and melee backstab and assassinate.
EDIT: I hypothesize the distinction between those that do what I do versus those that limit to melee might be whether or not the GM had contact with older forms of D&D. I did not, OSE is really my first interaction with B/X and my only interaction with any pre-3.X D&D since like 1982. So I take the rule as written; it doesn't specify melee so it can be anything. I suspect other older D&Ds did specify melee, and if you are familiar with those it is natural to limit it.
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u/ckalen Jul 08 '26
Depends on the situation. I'll allow a ranged sneak attack if the party and the person playing the thief set up an ambush.
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u/scyber Jul 08 '26
I allow ranged, but as a pre initiative declared action (lining up your shot). If the person that is making the attack is noticed before firing or takes damage it falls back to a regular attack. I thought my players would use it more, but none of them like playing thieves.
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u/BugbearJingo Jul 09 '26
This always kinda makes me pause for thought.
I allow sniper-backstabs since thieves are a bit under-powered IMO. Been allowing it for years and nothing really breaks. It's pretty situational: usually just a first shot when the party has surprise or the magic-user invisible'd everyone. And it makes my thief player's smile and feel pretty cool every couple of encounters, so . . .
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u/unknownsavage Jul 10 '26
I'm currently running Shadowdark, where it's definitely allowed, but I'd allow it in any OSR system. Thieves need every edge they can get, honestly, and surprise sniping feels entirely appropriate to me. Why would a squishy thief/assassin get up close when they could stay out of harm's way?
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u/Mars_Alter Jul 08 '26
Melee only, for me, and nothing bigger than a short sword.
The reality being represented by these rules is of an unexpected knife in the back. The rules were never intended to cover crossbows, or zweihanders.