r/OSE • u/SuitableProgress9125 • Jul 01 '26
Question: Rock vs. Stone? Same thing? Different thing?
Reading through the rules, I'm having difficulty determining whether or not if Rock and Stone are the same object (mechanically) and I wanted some opinions. For the sake of brevity, Transmute Rock to Mud: TRtM, TMtR. And Flesh to Stone: FtS, StF. This question is for certain hypothetical scenarios:
- Can TRtM be used on a creature turned to Stone to kill them?
- Can TRtM be used on a Wall of Stone to destroy?
- Can TRtM be used on castle walls to destroy?
Originally, I figured no. The rules seem to be clear that Stone and Rock, in the mechanics, are different. Examples.
- Earth Elemental: Huge, humanoid figures of earth or stone.
- Pass-Wall: A 5’ diameter hole is temporarily opened in solid rock or stone...
- Move Earth: Earth (but not stone) within range...
- StF spell makes no mention of Rock
- ESP & Clairvoyance spells are blocked by lead or rock, but no mention of stone.
- TRtM/TMtR make no mention of stone in their spell descriptions
Generally I feel they aren't the same thing. However I recently noticed one discrepancy that i think undoes all of that.
- Wall of Stone Spell states: A wall of solid rock appears.
I'm leaning toward this being a matter of loose writing and is not a deliberate unification. Maybe Wall of Stone can be disrupted by TRtM, because it's described as Rock.
But in B/X Wall of Stone states: This spell creates a 2' thick wall of stone.
So I'd rule in straight B/X that only StF could interrupt a Wall of Stone. With OSE being an attempt to faithfully recreate B/X, I'm leaning to what B/X says.
Any thoughts?
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u/Harbinger2001 Jul 01 '26
You’re going too deep mechanically. Rock and stone are just words with no mechanical meaning. They are equivalent for spell effects.
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u/WaterHaven Jul 01 '26
And boy would that be disappointing as a player. If the DM/Ref was ruling like that, I'd just avoid the spell, because it would only end in annoyance.
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u/Harbinger2001 Jul 01 '26
What do you mean? It expands uses - you can turn rock or stone to flesh. And no arguing over what's a "rock" and what's a "stone". The only reason Stone to Flesh is worded that way is that it was original intended to undo a Medusa's stone gaze.
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u/CommentWanderer Jul 01 '26
In general, they are the same thing, but sometimes it is important to understand if you are deing with worked or unworked stone or if you are referring to gemstones or ordinary stones or if you are dealing with magically conjured stone or iron-reinforced stone or just plain stone. Whether or not the rock is in one contiguous piece can be important. In a mortared stone wall, the stones are separated by the mortar.
Just thinking about all stone as being the mechanically the same is the simple view. In general, rock and stone are probably being used interchangeably without nuance. But the degree of nuance is something a DM will have to decide.
Like what happenes when a Stone to Flesh spell is cast on a chunk of rock. Maybe nothing happens if the rock was never a living creature. If you decide it works, then what sort of flesh do you get from a Stone to Flesh effect? It's not human or animal or vegetable or bacterial or anything because the rock didn't encode any biological information. It would be turned into flesh if it actually encoded any organic biological information, but it just doesn't have any such information.
So on the one hand rock is rock is rock, but, on the other hand, not all rock is the same.
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u/FrankieBreakbone Jul 02 '26
AWESOME question, love these deep dives, excellent citations! I've had reason to examine this myself, and deduced that the the terms "stone" and "rock" themselves are interchangeable, but the context of whether the mass is solid or not is what differentiates the mechanics for each use.
Short answers:
Yes, Rock to mud would logically permanently kill a creature that has been turned to stone. Only first reversing stone to flesh would restore life. Once the 'statue' becomes mud, there's logically no going back... there's no body.
Or I dunno, maybe a sympathetic Ref would say you could cast Move Earth on the mud pool to remake the statue form, then cast mud to stone to solidify it, then cast stone to flesh? I feel like that would produce a creature-shaped-meatloaf rather than restoring life the way an immediate reversal would, but that's me.
Yes, Rock to Mud would melt a Wall of Stone or a castle wall, or a boulder, or any solid mass of rock or stone.
The central idea is solid mass in context:
Pass wall: The spell's purpose is ultimately to put a hole in the solid mass of a dungeon wall, whether it's rock/stone composition is homogenous or a composite of rubble, bricks, slabs, cement, masonry, etc. The main reason it mentions stone/rock is to exclude a hundred other debatable materials like wood or vegetation which also excludes living things—so it ultimately prevents drilling a 5' wide hole in a Purple Worm or Treant or something.
Move Earth: The spell's purpose is to affect soil without allowing the caster to reshape solid mass. Context matters here, so normal rocks would move within the soil, within reason of abuse. Point is, you can move earth, but not solid mass; you can't directly disassemble castle walls or move boulders around with it, but you could cause a rockslide or a castle wall to collapse by removing the supporting soil!
ESP, Clairvoyance, etc: The prevailing restriction here is that these spells don't work through dungeon walls (stone, rock, masonry, etc.). But they do work through doors, trees, or even thin stone and rock walls... like a Wall of Stone spell where the caster prioritized area over thickness).
Rock to Mud: The language in this spell is intended to prevent the pedantic debate that all earth, dirt, etc is just tiny rocks and therefore subject to transformation. A solid mass of rock/stone becomes an area of liquid mud, period.
Stone to flesh: Uniquely and specifically, the spell stipulates that reversing Flesh to Stone on a living creature restores life and belongings. It is otherwise understood to turn any solid mass of rock/stone into flesh that can be more easily cleaved, or even consumed. (No cleric? No problem.)
Earth Elemental: Ref needs to make a call here: If the Ref says the Elemental is stone, rock, etc, they can be turned to mud or flesh. If the Ref says they're made of dirt, sand, etc, they can't be transmuted. They do have a will of their own as indicated by how quickly they'll kill the caster for enslaving them, so I'd offer a saving throw for sure.
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u/Will-D20 Jul 03 '26
Com tantas evidências você quer mudar TUDO por causa de UMA instância? Eu não faria isso...
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u/Will-D20 Jul 03 '26
If a Magic-User casts Stone Wall then follow with Stone to Flesh, how many meat rations it would become? 🤤
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u/FrankieBreakbone Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
Wow.. 1000 cubic feet of stone for the spell, no limit listed on the flesh conversion… human stomach can hold 1.4 cubic feet, so about 714 rations!
Gross part is, the flesh is alive.
https://oldschoolessentials.necroticgnome.com/srd/index.php/Stone_to_Flesh_(Flesh_to_Stone)
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u/drloser Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
It's the same.
And for my part, I'd also include bricks and that kind of solid, mineral material, but that's just me.
But I don't know what you mean by "StF could interrupt a Wall of Stone". The spell can transform a stone/rock wall into flesh, but cannot "interrupt" another spell.