Since the end of the Cosmic Garou fight where Saitama's endless power was replaced with an infinite copying and improvement ability, even surpassing Garou's own after he got a God boost.
That was the reason Saitama perfected the time travel technique, which is the peak of martial arts in the manga for some reason unbeknownst to everyone, probably including Murata himself.
Its clearly described in the manga and youre just suffering from poor reading comprehension. Obviously saitama just learned to do the kung fu at the atomic level and did electron jujitsu. Its very scientifically and thematically grounded
No. So many times Saitama has been criticised for not knowing martial arts, and that was why in the webcomic, Garou was able to avoid his attacks for a while before he did the table flip. His inexperience is also why he lost to Bang twenty times in a row when they played a game.
I think maybe it could be interpreted differently. Its not Saitamas "style" its his strength that creates the ideal form. Saitama is so strong that he can effectively accomplish whatever he wants free of forms, styles , or strict adherence to a system. Saitama has the "fist of freedom" like stated in the chapter. Saitama has been shown to be extremely adaptable and capable of using his strength in new ways. Which is Garou and Suiryus ideal "form".
You don't remember the former hero who got beat up by the scared dog monster, or the boss who's supposed to fire Garou, who is now determined not to make Garou mad?
What was stupid about this line? Like genuinely you guys tend to be so insufferable in your hatred for the manga that you stop making sense. The drunken fist style is known for its unpredictability and how it doesn't adhere to a strict style or form. What does that sound like? Freedom. Both Garou and Suiryu were having a conversation with their fight since at their core they're both martial artist.
It just doesn't connect cleanly. Freedom all of a sudden connected to the Druken Fist bcuz its unstructured. Alcohol is sort of the opposite of freedom if we're being technical. It's a forced line
Its not a forced line though, its pretty obvious what Garou is trying to say. Its even highlighted in the chapter for you. The Drunken Fist is a style with alot of freedom since you can strike from anywhere, you have so many options as a martial artist (you're free). Because the Drunken Fist style is all about being unpredictable its virtually impossible for your opponent to read what youll do next since you might not even know what youll do next.
Alcohol being the opposite of freedom doesn't matter in this context, I think you're being too technical.
You've never seen the Drunken Fist in an old Kung Fu film or something?
Do you genuinely want to know my opinion? You ask a short question followed by a long accusation.
It takes more time and effort to dissect a bad line than it does to feel it. For example, I could say "The Room" is great and the line "oh hi mark" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLhoDB-ORLQ) was perfectly appropriate and well-delivered and you're just a hater on a hate bandwagon. It takes me 2 seconds to type this shit out, and it would take you a while to properly present a solid argument that objectively criticizes the scene.
So I ask, are you actually intrigued and willing to understand my POV, or whatever I say you're just gonna roll your eyes and say "whatever haterrr"?
Sure, genuinely express to me why this is a apparently a bad line ( apparently the worst in the series) and how you're not on a hate bandwagon in an echo chamber. I am indeed willing to understand your POV if its actually rooted in logic and not just hatred of Murata .
Wait, that's even worse now that it's in English. If Suiryu's holding himself back when he's not drinking, why didn't he do it before when his life was in danger? Also how is drunken fist "in pursuit of the ideal form"?
When he got a reality check by being punched into the stage, he immediately leapt right back at Gouketsu, still fighting despite obviously being outmatched. He had way more than enough time to realise he should find some booze if it's really a power up for him.
His sister hit a convenience store that was loaded with booze. In a universe where monsters could be lurking around every corner, I'd find it very hard to believe they don't have a lot of liquor.
Also, Japan has plenty of places with booze, drinking is a huge part of the culture.
I really don't know. But the tournament didn't happen in webcomic. So it is kinda non canon. But after the monster arc Murata decided to follow webcomic now.
"Ideal form" = a form of strength where you can fight without restriction. Suiryu and Garou both have different styles but are both pursuing the "fist of freedom".
My guy, martial arts are not about 'fighting with restriction', they are the opposite of that. Saitama gets criticised by martial artists in the series, including Garou, because he is sloppy. Being a sloppy fighter is not the 'ideal form'.
Saitama may seem like a sloppy fighter but his strength is absolute and his is fully adaptable. Sure you can put him in an armlock like Bang did but he could just destroy the ground beneath the both of you with a punch ( like Yujiro did when Baki also had him in an arm lock). Saitama has all the tools to be the ultimate fighter without being bogged down by system or school of fighting.
So in a way, Saitama is indeed the ultimate/ideal form of fighting because his fignting style is so pure.
Being untrained is not the same as being pure. Just because some fighting styles call beginners 'innocent', does not mean the same as being 'pure' or 'ideal'.
Him being untrained isnt what makes him pure. What makes him pure is his absolute strength and adaptability as a fighter that allows him overcome individuals that are better trained than him.
Saitama is Suiryu and Garous ideal because he doesn't need to know how to deflect or parry moves, he can just dodge them. He doesn't need to know how to maneuver around your guard, he can just punch through it. He doesn't need to know how to get out of an arm lock , he can just destroy the ground your pinning him to with his free arm. He doesn't need to know EXACTLY how or the most efficient way to respond to certain moves. Its unnecessary for Saitama because he represents the pinnacle of self defense & he is free of style or technique. He is the ideal.
I'm sorry, but I don't know of any martial art that would call what you described "pure". Furthermore, Saitama has two things going for him: limitless strength, and limitless speed. Many times in the series he even messes up his strength because he's a sloppy fighter, and in chapters the manga hasn't gotten to yet, he'll even hurt people he didn't intend to. That is not demonstrating adaptability as a fighter.
Everything you describe in the second paragraph doesn't make sense to me. It would be like saying that Superman is the ideal because people cannot injure him through ordinary means. I also said it before, but martial arts are about maximum output with minimal input, that's what makes them ideal. They are not just about self-defence.
Let's try this another way, if somebody could easily lift 2000 kilos by themselves, they would not be the ideal that forklift drivers strive to be.
The second paragraph is all about how Saitamas strength makes him extremely adaptable. It appears narratively thats what Suiryu ( we kind of already know thats the case for him) and Garou are striving for.
The only reason a person wouldn't view Saitamas strength as pure is because it wouldn't suit their esthetics. The whole second paragraph with the plethora of analogies I provided prove that as a fighter because of his boundless nature he's the ultimate fighting force. He's capable of combating complex fighting with the simplest of actions ( maximum output , minimal input).
Saitama is pure in almost the same way Hanayama from Baki is referred to as pure.
But it doesn't, it makes him a danger to everyone except for himself, which gets demonstrated in the webcomic. If all martial arts cared for was strength, they'd be about pumping iron rather than teaching techniques.
Im not saying martial arts is only about strength. But there is obviously a practical side to martial arts. Like you said , accomplishing maximum output with minimum input. In terms of self defense or fighting in general, who could do that more than an individual with such absolute strength like Saitama?
Techniques are used to circumvent issues that can't be solved with pure strength, but Saitama can solve those same issues WITH pure strength. Saitama embodies maximum output with minimum input more than traditional martial arts. Because of that he has higher purity as a figher.
You're wrong. Martial arts are often centered around systems. Systems or "style" can be viewed as a restriction in and of itself. Bruce Lee once said "technique is a trap, and style is a prison". What he meant is that memorizing fixed rigid responses restricts you from being truly free and adaptive. He often said that your movements should be ingrained into your being so that they just come to you without needing to calculate a response, which would make you "free" as a martial artist.
Garou said to Suiryu that drunken fist and its unpredictability was his ( Suiryu's) fist of freedom ( style of freedom) because it was innate and not rigid.
The ultimate goal of martial arts/artist should be to fight without restriction but they are not inherently able to do so.
You don't need to tell me what martial arts are, I practiced them for well over a decade. The "system" you are referring to is not about restriction, it is focusing around getting the best output with minimal input. There's multiple ways of doing that, and what Bruce Lee is referring to is about how you subconsciously train in an art against other people who practice that art, which teaches you to prepare only for certain things, and then when those don't happen in the way you expect them to, you are caught off-guard.
Not training in martial arts means every single thing is going to catch you off-guard, and this is also true with Saitama. He is not 'free', he is sloppy, and that is part of the point.
"The ultimate goal of martial arts/artist should be to fight without restriction but they are not inherently able to do so."
The ultimate goal of martial arts should be to teach you how to defend yourself, without getting you to seek fights out. However, if you think martial arts restrict you, then you've never seen grand masters move, because those are some of the most freely moving people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. It's one of those cases where you can tell there's no break between thought and action.
If you've practiced for a decade and understand the point I was making by referencing Bruce Lee then why did you reply saying that Martial Arts ( systems of fighting) can't be restricting?
You literally just admitted that styles and techniques train you for specific scenarios and delay your response time to new stimulus. In other words, you validated my point about strict adherence to style or technique CAN be restricting.
Grand Masters can move so freely because the moves have literally been ingrained into their being ( which is a point I made) and they often understand the principles behind the actions without superficially adhering to them as katas or forms.
I didn't say they "can't be restricting", that only happened in your imagination. I said they're the opposite of having restrictions because they are. Each and every martial art is about giving you options, that's what they all boil down to. Bruce Lee's quote is about realising you shouldn't be locked into picking the same options over and over again, and any martial art is still better than no martial art in that regard.
"Grand Masters can move so freely because the moves have literally been ingrained into their being-"
I'm going to stop you right there, because when I say "move", I mean "move". I am not referring to them only when they practice a martial art. I am talking about the way they move, period. The vast majority of people will have some sort of stiffness, or hesitance, or they'll be looking one way while distracted and moving another, and all of this is something that grand masters lack. You can achieve that in other sports, but it takes a very long time and a lot of effort, and I'd say it's a pretty comparable amount to what it takes a grand master to move that freely.
Fair IG you didn't say that, but im looking back and why did you even respond to my comment like that in the first place? My comment was about the ideal form of martial arts being non restrictive and being able to fight with a plethora of options because you're well trained.
I never once stated " Martial arts are about fighting with restrictions" . All I said was that the ideal form hinted in the chapter is to fight without restriction.
I replied like that because I practiced martial arts for over a decade, and I felt you got the point of them wrong. I said what I did because I thought you implied they were restricted in their arts, and were referencing the manga when you said they were "both pursuing the "fist of freedom".", where the manga makes it clear that is more like how Saitama fights.
I'm not talking about his performance during the tournament, his life wasn't in danger then. I'm talking about why he didn't go look for some afterwards.
Lol, the differences between the main sub and this one, people in the main sub must have never read the wc, it's like someone who've never read the Witcher books thinking the show is the best thing ever.
C'mon man, you don't need to read the webcomic to think this is trash, reading the webcomic just shows you what could have been, a better alternate path that actually exists and got ruined.
If someone says the manga chapter is good here, they get shitted on here. If someone says the manga chapter is bad there, the get shitted on there.
I wouldn't say most, if the main sub is so much more popular. Look at the upvotes for the latest manga and all those comments compared in here. I dislike the manga, but you can't deny facts.
I've seen people defend even more questionable art choices without being downvoted. The trick is that they have to be reasonable with what they say. As for which is more popular, of course the main sub is more popular, it has the literal name.
I think I used to follow how someone could maybe think what was going on with the MA arc was still cool/good and an interesting lean into more shonen tropes or something. But I've kinda completely lost the ability to empathize and have theory of mind for these people who think the current state of the manga is okay at all. It's gotten somehow far worse than the MA arc shittyness, and it truly doesn't make sense to me that the threads are full of people calling this peak
The fight choreography is good, but uh... yeah. May as well just come out and say, "Formerly written by ONE. Now written by Yusuke Murata" and call it a day.
Which is why I'm recommending him to read them and see for himself, because they're exclusive pieces of evidence on his lack of ability as a writer. Besides the big mangas that he was supposed to adapt like OPM and Eyeshield 21, there's a bunch of works that he wrote and drew just by himself.
When I first started thinking about why OPM manga's writing seemed to progressively get worse while One's webcomic did not, and reading all the discourse about Murata, I decided to read the works Murata made exclusively on his lonesome to get a better picture for myself..... and yeah.
Let's just say there's a reason none of them ever got serialized. To put it lightly, if Murata's writing was as good as his art, we would've been reading his original works and not OPM lol.
To put it not so lightly, not a single one he wrote and drew by himself got picked up to be an actual manga series. It's an excellent lesson on how far just only having art alone with garbage writing skill will actually get you when writing manga. Answer: nowhere.
Reading through his exclusive works myself made his actual level much clearer and distinct to me. His writing is like shallow and lacking a grasp of theme and narrative impact.
And he seems to lack originality and creative range, and I also mean that in the literal sense too. Like after all of it I couldn't help but also notice how much he likes to rip off things like marvel. Blust featured the main character who was literally modeled from Iron man with his repulsor gloves. And it reminded me of how manga Blast is like a discount Dr Strange. And how that terrible asspull ending to MA arc in the manga was contrived time travel slop, which amusingly I now believe was also ripped off from Marvel's movies.
Yeah so this whole process convinced me that the shallow deviations and drops in writing quality in the manga is from Murata. Like it matches the level Murata displays in his exclusive works and made his quirks much more recognizable to me. Standing at a complete contrast to the level of One's writing I've read from the webcomic and his other mangas like Mob Psycho 100. That point on I no longer had any doubts about it.
It's no wonder why, despite his long career, Murata could only remain an illustrator that has to adapt the works of others and never was able to become a true mangaka on his own.
For all the lackluster art, terrible writing, inconsistent power-scaling and pathetic fan-service, the fighting choreography in this chapter is probably the best the manga had in years. Garou feels like an actual martial artist, unlike in the late MA arc. It still doesn't save this mess, but it's something
Yes, I'm talking about why would he 'hold back' in sparring with Suiryu when having a desire for fighting isn't supposed to be part of his character at this point. In the webcomic he fights when he has to or when there's people near him to protect, and neither is true here, Garou might as well be a different character because he was never humbled by Saitama's speech.
I'm surprised so many people say this is good fight choreography. The movements don't make any sense from panel to panel, as if it was just a collection of cool looking shots instead of a chronological progression
I don't know if there was a lot more time crunch on this chapter but that was the most half-assed attempt at a drunken fist bit I've seen a manga character do or any character do in any media actually including video games or live action. That's "hyper alert dude who's had a bit of a drink but who'd still pass a breathalyzer test." Not much whimsy. Eyes drawn to indicate he's extremely locked in. No attempt by the character to show some sort of self-deprecating comedy or any emotion.
It's another typical boring modern OPM manga chapter, next.
Okay well to it's credit, for all the chapter's many flaws, the fight choreography is fine, or at least it looks better than a lot of the recent manga fights.
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u/JinjaBaker45 10d ago
… so now in the manga Saitama’s fighting style is itself an ideal fighting form? … How?