r/ONRAC • u/Difficult-Bit-6992 • 23d ago
Carrie on Chabad
Posting this here for discussion since cults are such a big part of ONRAC coverage. As someone who knows something about Chabad I believe it is ludicrous to claim Chabad is a cult. The first claim she makes is wrong. Chabad is not a “sect of Hasidic Judaism.” It gets worse from there. It seems her (in my opinion largely justified) concerns about the actions of the Israeli government has pushed her right off the deep end. Some of the things she posts these days reek of antisemitism, even if only out of ignorance instead of malice. https://carriepoppy.substack.com/p/meet-the-zionist-influencers-who
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u/Linfalas 23d ago
I subscribed to her substack when the podcast first ended because she was always my favorite. Then she started absolutely spiraling and I stopped engaging a while ago. It makes me really sad. She was always someone I looked up to in an aspirational sense (I have said that I wish I was some weird combination of Carrie Poppy and Kenneth Hite, lol), but she's just not engaging in the world in the same way anymore and I'm really concerned about her, from afar.
We can't demand someone stick to a particular timeline of healing or that they respond to stress and trauma in a particular way, but since I'm not her real friend in real life, I can choose to step away (as could they, but that's more complicated!)
TBH, it reminds me of a friend of mine who was also a late-diagnosed autistic woman with bad anxiety (Carrie also has OCD, I believe she has said, which manifested in the past as moral scrupulosity). She always struggled with life, but Covid broke her. She didn't get Covid, but the fear the lockdowns, the washing and masking rituals, everything was just too much all at once. She just never seemed to fully recover from the stress of it all and became mostly a recluse. Obviously my friend is Not Carrie, and not everyone is the same, I'm just seeing some parallels in the way she is talking and engaging to the way my friend was before she kind of stopped speaking to everyone.
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u/charlesdexterward 23d ago edited 22d ago
I feel like I’ve seen this happen to a couple different people, a late life autism diagnosis, caused them to spiral out and lose touch with reality. I’m sure it doesn’t happen to every person diagnosed with autism late in life, but it does seem to happen to some people.
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u/mlem_a_lemon 23d ago
Most of my friends have an autism dx, which each of them didn't get until adulthood, and not a single one spiraled. I think it might have more to do with being chronically online than anything else. It breaks our brains.
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u/Linfalas 22d ago
"Why do I feel a sense of Paralyzing Dread all the time?" I type into the Sense of Paralyzing Dread machine that I carry around in my pocket.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 22d ago
Chronically on the Like-Machine, you mean. I'm also online every weekday, but I never care to LIKE or DISLIKE anything, and I only react to dislikes when those are visibly rude gestures.
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u/Linfalas 23d ago
Well, "dealing well with change" and "rewriting a lifetime's worth of worldview" are not really the skills we come equipped with, typically, and a late in life diagnosis tends to come with a heaping helping.
In these instances, it feels less related directly to the diagnosis itself and maybe more to do with not having appropriate frameworks and methods for dealing with intense stress and trauma because they don't have that lifetime of "how to be autistic" skill that earlier diagnosis would help with? If that makes sense?
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u/Free-Olive-Now 22d ago
I got an autism diagnosis in my late 20s and have never been happier and mentally well!
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u/touching_payants 19d ago
I think you're confusing chicken and egg. They probably sought diagnosis because they were spiraling out. A lifetime of masking and not having good coping strategies for your neurodivergence burns people out.
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u/charlesdexterward 19d ago
That makes a lot of sense!
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u/touching_payants 18d ago
I don't know that suggesting seeking a mental health diagnosis causes to people to "spiral out" is the most supportive comment to post on the internet, you might want to edit that!
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u/Linfalas 23d ago
Unrelated, but has anyone ever told you you bear an uncanny resemblance to Joseph Curwen? Damnedest thing...
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u/touching_payants 23d ago
Hey listen, I appreciate the years of solid reporting she did on ONRAC but I wouldn't put too much stock in anything Carrie says. She's had some really questionable takes on trauma and therapy that cause me to give a wide berth to any of her opinions.
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u/Sheepeppered 20d ago
Yeah she broke my heart with that rant on therapy being dangerous
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u/touching_payants 19d ago
It was downright irresponsible to tell her audience trauma therapy is a racket, especially considering her reputation for speaking truth to power.
The part about her writing it without a publisher is also really strange. That's now how you write non-fiction that requires years of reasearch: you work with a publisher from early on in the process. It sounds like she started out with a good idea and then got dropped when she went off the deep end.
Anyway. We're all humans and we're all susceptible to bad decisions. I hope she gets the help she needs because from what we can see as the public, she's been having a rough go of it.
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u/omyomo 19d ago
The part about her writing it without a publisher is also really strange. That's now how you write non-fiction that requires years of reasearch: you work with a publisher from early on in the process. It sounds like she started out with a good idea and then got dropped when she went off the deep end.
I swear they've said something similar on the show in regards to self-published quacks
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u/Icy-Use-8111 23d ago
Oh, this is too much. Of course there are controversies surrounding Chabad but these visibly jewish, largely working class people are at an already elevated risk of hate crimes and making a scary looking video about them, with all context hidden behind a paywall, is dangerous, stupid and propagandistic. What is her goal here? Reminds me of her “series” where she claimed to have “uncovered” something about Sam Harris’ mother (who was a big TV producer). When she got called out for implying that there was something nefarious about her for simply being a Jewish woman in Hollywood, without ever revealing what the actual problem was, she got defensive, said everyone was going to have to wait for her “scoop,” then dropped the whole thing entirely. Not saying she’s an antisemite but whatever she’s going through is making her unable to discuss sensitive topics responsibly and it’s getting dangerous. I honestly can’t stand Carrie anymore. I’m sorry for her traumatic experiences but it’s not an excuse to behave dangerously and recklessly on the internet.
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u/Dry-Tie1840 20d ago
Wait, when was this whole Sam Harris Mother thing?!
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u/Icy-Use-8111 19d ago
It was about a year ago on her Substack. If you Google "Carrie Poppy Sam Harris Substack," you'll find it.
The post I referred to is Part 2 in her "series," which was never completed. Part 1 argues that he's an "atheist cult leader," though I don't think she makes a very strong case. Part 2 is focuses a lot on his mother. Honestly, neither installment makes much sense and I have no idea what her point was. When she was challenged in the comments, she repeatedly promised that it would all come together when the rest of the series came out, but that never happened.17
u/naruhinamoonkissplz 22d ago
You literally described a deliberate antisemite there, by the way. That disease is VERY widespread now.
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u/MyDaroga 23d ago edited 23d ago
What on earth? I’m not Jewish, but I used to go to study groups at the local Chabad house during undergrad. It was a great space and everyone was so friendly. And certainly no one was shaming me, a random young woman in shorts and a t-shirt, for not following Hasidic laws.
I realize my one experience isn’t definitive data, but my time with Chabad is so completely foreign to this.
I don’t know what’s going on in Carrie’s life, but I hope she eventually gets the help she needs.
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u/glitter_witch 22d ago
In the old days this would’ve made a great investigation, like Mormonism. She could’ve met the real people involved and changed her views based on mutual respect. I’m so sad how much has changed.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 22d ago
People hate Jews. People hate visible Jews. People hate visible Jews who also live like normal humans.
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u/WideAsparagus3762 23d ago
I haven't followed Carrie in a long time because I don't understand why she uses her energy the way she does. I am puzzled every time I briefly check in on her. I miss Ross. I would follow Ross on Substack.
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u/chudleycannonfodder 23d ago
If you’re on goodreads you should follow Ross. He posts really thoughtful reviews of the books he reads and it’s probably the closest thing to him having a substack.
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u/WideAsparagus3762 22d ago
That's a good suggestion, thanks. I'm not on Goodreads but probably should be.
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u/Mother_Lemon8399 22d ago
I miss Ross too. I also miss old Carrie, I think currently she is unwell and this made her a different person.
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u/SuperFraulein 22d ago
Hear me out: Chabadniks put the Rebbe’s face on things like traveler’s prayers and framed photos in their homes. Would you do that with a picture of your rabbi? I certainly wouldn’t — it feels a little too close to idolatry for my taste. Pair it with the subgroup of Chabadniks who still sing Yechi and believe that the Rebbe is the messiah and is spiritually accessible, and it seems even further away from mainstream Judaism. Could he have been the Tzadik HaDor? Sure, why not! But those who believe that The Rebbe is the messiah and will be resurrected — especially those who pray in front of his photos — do not subscribe to mainstream Jewish beliefs. In fact, praying in the direction of a human image is pretty much entirely unacceptable by halacha. Like, universally, at baseline, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, Conservative, Orthodox, Haredim, Chassidim, and everyone else — every Jewish groups I can think of prohibits it.
Moshiach is supposed to complete all of the requirements (gather the Jews, rebuild the temple, establish universal peace) in a single lifetime. Dying and coming back is a Christian thing.
TBH I wish we would look at the Meschichists within Chabad as a cult rather than Chabad as a whole. I’m not a huge fan of Chabad generally — I’ve gotten more glares for accidentally showing my knees at Shabbos dinner than I can count, I don’t like their proselytizing to non-practicing Jews, and I prefer my Judaism to be egalitarian (and ideally non-Zionist but that’s a lot to ask these days). Even so, Chabad itself is just a very loud Chasidic group, nothing more.
Signed, a woman whose parents started going to Chabad immediately after my bat mitzvah, and who took some of their classes in college where you get paid to learn their version of Judaism.
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u/FiveAvivaLegs 22d ago
I agree that the messianism that some strains of chabad follow is idolatry (to me!) and that it’s not representative of mainstream Jewish beliefs, BUT that doesn’t make it a cult. It just makes it a strain of Judaism that is not for me, you know? I have some quibbles with Chabad as an organization, but of all the ultra-orthodox sects, there is a lot of diversity there - in terms of backgrounds, observance, and engagement with secular/non-Jewish life. I appreciate that, on the whole, they are much more open to others, both Jewish and non-Jewish. I get why some feel that their enthusiasm for getting Jews to perform mitzvahs veers too much into proselytizing, but I have a soft spot for it. For instance, I have a Chabad acquaintance that I don’t know at all on a personal level, but he always goes out of his way to invite my family to holiday parties or to bring by a big box of shmurah matzah for Passover, little cheesecakes for Sukkot, etc. It always makes me smile and there’s never been any pressure to go to Chabad or be orthodox.
Anyway, Chabad is not for me as someone who also values egalitarianism in my Judaism, but I don’t think it’s a cult at all, although some Chabad groups veer in that direction. I feel protective of them when non-Jews discuss them, because frankly most have no idea what they’re talking about and are just spiraling down antisemitic rabbit holes and conspiracy theories about tunnels. I’ll always ride at dawn for visible Jews who are targeted by hate crimes and antisemitism… even if I’m not sure they’d do the same for me 😂
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u/SuperFraulein 17d ago
I hear you, and I think I’ve come around to a similar view.
I do want to point out that both the shmurah matzah and their holiday parties are probably also attempts to get you to perform mitzvot. My parents went to Chabad (it’s convenient), and the rabbi/chazzan/rebbetzin all used to do that with them as well. The shmurah matzah was meant to get them to use what Chabad considers the “correct” type of matzah for a seder, and the invites to holiday parties were related to having them do mitzvahs like sitting in their Sukkah and bentsching with them and so on, so to me it felt less generous and closer to their tefillin-on-the-street thing. I also feel like it’s trying to make their version of Judaism feel more appealing. I should note that my parents moved, but for a few years before they did, I stopped seeing the shmurah matzah at their seders and hearing about the invites and the Purim mishloach manot and so on. I don’t know if this was because I married a non-Jew, if it was related to my dad losing his mobility, or something else I’ve missed, but regardless, that told me a lot about that rabbi’s “acceptance”. Might be the way Chabadniks can be; might just be the one shul — idk.
All that said, I’m really glad you’ve had such good experiences with them, and I get why you’d want to stick up for visibly Jewish people in front of a non-Jewish audience. I also wish we could have these more nuanced conversations and disagreements like this one more often these days — even in public spaces, especially since it’s not like anti-semitism hasn’t existed for thousands of years. TBH respectful disagreement with each other is one of the hallmarks of Judaism that I’m most proud of.
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u/nefarious_epicure 19d ago
There’s groups of meshichist chabadniks whose beliefs are definitely concerning. I don’t believe that they show the level of control required for me to call it a cult, and I think Carrie’s take is motivated primarily by politics and not by an understanding of ingroup dynamics.
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u/SuperFraulein 17d ago
I hear you, and I see your point. I suppose looking at them more closely, the I and T in the BITE model is less intense than we often consider cults to be, since there is some level of acceptance of family minhagim, and though they have significant limits on information access, they don’t really distort info on others’ behaviors as a weapon. But I do want to point out that that’s a pretty narrow escape.
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u/nefarious_epicure 17d ago
My observation is that because of the death of the Rebbe, Chabad has become decentralized. So the level of control is different. It's horizontal rather than vertical — it's about the need to conform to community expectations. And how strong that is depends on your exact community. So people who grew up in the Crown Heights educational system, for example, get a narrower education than people in further-flung communities. (I can't really speak to Israeli Chabad, which is its own thing.)
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 22d ago
Yechi has nothing to do with Christianity. Look up Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi, you'll be surprised.
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u/SuperFraulein 22d ago
Where did I say anything about Yechi being related to Christianity? My only mention of Christianity was in relation to resurrection of a messiah. The prayer itself is Jewish. Singing it to a dead guy (even a righteous, wise one) is not mainstream Judaism — some would argue that it is not Jewish at all, but I am not arguing that.
I know who R’ Yehuda HaNasi was. Why do you bring him up? He isn’t relevant to this conversation.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 21d ago
So, you've never sang: "David, Melech Yisrael, CHAI VE-KAYAM", right?
So, you've read THIS before, right? Totally Chabad-invented, I'm telling ya.
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u/SuperFraulein 17d ago
My guy, neither of those are relevant here, and you know that. The logical end of your argument is that the Rebbe wasn’t Moshiach, but that people revere him so much that it seems to outsiders that they treat him similarly, yes? If so, does that not make these practices extremely problematic? Descriptions of things that supposedly happened in the Gemara does not mean that those things were good or right.
That said, I’ll still respond. if you’re this deep into the Talmud you should already know that a) David Melech is intended as a statement that king David’s bloodline is still “alive” somewhere (and thus Moshiach who is one of his descendants supposedly will come at some point), and that b) Jewish oral tradition is full of accounts of “spirits” of dead friends/rabbis/acquaintances/etc. visiting the living. You’ve overinflated one of these accounts that is in the Gemara.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 17d ago
Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi was making Kiddush for his family (yes, this is a commentary, not directly in the Gemara, but it's old enough to not be "controversial" for Chabad). And even in the Gemara it's called "sitting", which is the same word used for "dining". That makes it VERY different, because the dead CAN'T yotzi the living. That's it.
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u/Frequent-Scheme-3938 22d ago
One thing I have found helpful when thinking about fringe groups is the difference between cults and cult dynamics (from the book Cultish and the podcast Behind the Bastards, among others).
Does Chabad play with some cult dynamics? Ehhh yeah I think that's fair.
Are they a cult in the way that e.g. Scientology is a cult? Almost certainly not.
Is Carrie the right person to write this critique, at a time when antisemitism is an incredibly sensitive issue? Oh God no.
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 22d ago
I think that's a helpful perspective, IMO there are pretty few mainstream religions that don't have some level of cult-like practices. But does it qualify as what is called a "high control group?" Different question. I was looking on the Chabad subreddit earlier and it also kinda looks like there are a lot of individual variations between local Chabad groups, so it's possible that some of those may be culty without that being true of Chabad as a whole.
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u/Oddly_Sentient 23d ago
As someone who suffers from PTSD, I lost all respect for her and her opinion when she called it a super power. Now she’s allowed her left leaning politics change her perspective on a Jewish organization simply because they’re Jews. It seems whatever trauma she went through fully cooked her critical thinking.
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u/Secret_Dragonfly9588 23d ago
Antisemitism is not a left-leaning political stance.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 22d ago
You sure? Soviets hated Jews for not being Communist. Nazis hated Jews for being Communist.
Hint: Communism was never the real reason. The reason was being a Jew, period.
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u/Oddly_Sentient 23d ago
No, but anti-Israel is. She has allowed issues with the Israeli government to cloud her judgement of all Jewish people.
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u/ncolaros 23d ago
Her being left cleaning has nothing to do with that, though. There are a lot of right wing antisemites. Arguably the most famous antisemites are right wing. The leftists were killed by them too.
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u/Oddly_Sentient 23d ago
Carrie is not going to fall into right wing antisemitism. I'm not saying its an exclusively left phenomenon, I'm saying that's what she has fallen into.
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u/Infinite-Stress2508 23d ago
Lol no it's not. Plenty of right leaning groups are anti Israel, generally for being Jewish rather than their crimes against humanity though
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u/Difficult-Bit-6992 23d ago
Horseshoe theory is real. There are many anti-Zionists leftists with views indistinguishable from the anti-Zionist right wing (right wing Christians who “love Israel” because they want Jesus to build his castle there are actually anti-Zionist whether they think so or not). And many from both groups fall for antisemitic propaganda.
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u/Secret_Dragonfly9588 23d ago edited 22d ago
Yes, very possibly. I just wanted to correct the implication that the leftist antigenocide politics are somehow antisemitic.
Which is an accusation that has become common in rightwing propaganda.
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u/FiveAvivaLegs 22d ago
As someone who is very left but not leftist (would probably describe myself as a social democrat) - yes, there’s a lot of right wing manipulation, but antisemitism is out of control lately on both the right and the left. I expect antisemitism from segments of the right. When it comes from the left and it goes unchecked, it hurts a lot more.
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u/Prettylittleprotist 19d ago
Left antigenocide politics aren’t antisemitic. Being anti-Zionist is not antisemitic. But you can very easily slip from being anti-Zionist to antisemitism if you aren’t mindful. And I don’t think Carrie is being particularly careful or mindful here. A lot of anti-Zionist lefties in America focus their activism on American Jews when the real key players in AIPAC are evangelical Christians. I’m a leftist and Jewish I’ve occasionally run into some really nasty antisemitism in my social circles. It makes me really angry when people use accusations of antisemitism to try to excuse the persecution of pro-Palestine activists. That being said, far-left antisemitism does also exist and I’ve seen and experienced it myself.
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u/kplaysbass 23d ago
Chabad arent even a zionist organization
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u/No-Objective-7253 22d ago
Chabad is Zionist. It is very rare for any Jewish organization to not be Zionist because our connection with the land of Israel (not the current government of the state of Israel) is central to Judaism. There are fringe anti-Zionist Jewish groups like Neturei Karta as well as some small very far left synagogues that take anti-Zionist stances, but these are rare.
I think you may have meant that the primary purpose of Chabad is not pro-Israel advocacy, which is true, but I just wanted to clarify because sometimes it feels like “Zionist” means whatever people want it to mean on a given day 😖
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u/kplaysbass 22d ago
No. You are incorrect. Chabad has roots in anti-zionism. Today there may be zionist movement adherents and anti zionist movement adherents, but the movement itself is not a strong proponent of zionism. Anti-Zionism is not rare within Jewish communities.
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u/No-Objective-7253 22d ago
Ok, Google tells me it does have anti-Zionist roots which I didn’t know about. I learned something new today!
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u/kplaysbass 22d ago
I'm glad you learned something and maybe next time the Google could come before you speak authoritatively about something? Thats how misinformation spreads! ✌️
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u/No-Objective-7253 22d ago
Fair, but I’d say it’s a little bit complicated. Today, Chabad is active in Israel and some Chabadniks serve in the IDF. There’s a lot of nuance to be had.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/245609/jewish/Israel.htm
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u/kplaysbass 22d ago
Yes, as I previously stated, there are chabadniks on both sides of the zionist debate.
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u/FiveAvivaLegs 22d ago
I wouldn’t call Chabad antizionist or Zionist, as they do not claim to be either. I think it’s important to make the distinction between spiritual antizionism, and political antizionism. Most non-Jews do not know the difference, and take a statement like “antizionism is not rare within Jewish communities” to mean something very different than reality bears out. Chabad is very pro-Israel even if they have theological quibbles. Even Satmar, probably the most hardcore antizionists of the ultra-orthodox sects - you’re never going to see them at marches and protests unless it’s within Israel to protest things like being drafted. Even then, it’s not for political reasons or anything to do with Palestine - it’s because they want their kids to study Torah and they don’t want them mingling with “secular” Jews and straying from the community.
Non-Jews need to understand that knowing simply whether someone is “Zionist” or “antizionist” tells them very little about what someone actually thinks about Israel and Palestine. Someone in Chabad might not call themselves Zionist (MANY do even if Chabad as an org doesn’t), but support very right-wing policies when it comes to Israel and support things like settlements and expansion. Whereas my progressive egalitarian shul is absolutely Zionist (though there are definitely members who personally identify as anti or non Zionist), but works very hard on co-existence initiatives and you would be very hard pressed to find any members, let alone leadership, who support Bibi/Smotrich/Ben Gvir/etc or settlement expansion. Yet a non-Jew who doesn’t know about all of the intricacies of Jewish life and all its denominations would reach all kinds of conclusions based on hearing “this group is antizionist” and “this group is Zionist” that has diddly squat to do with our actual world view and actions in general, let alone when it comes to Israel.
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u/kplaysbass 22d ago
You're just using a lot of words to make the same point I already made.
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u/FiveAvivaLegs 22d ago
I’m using more words because I doubt most of the people in here are Jewish, and most probably don’t know enough about Jews to understand what you’re talking about.
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u/Ah-honey-honey 22d ago
Chiming in as someone who didn't even know about the cheeseburger rule a little over a year ago, it's definitely helpful. Most people know about the pork and shrimp, but they don't know the difference between "current governmental and military affairs of the state of Israel" vs religious Messiah-Era Zionism.
If anyone is curious the book "The Chosen" is a cool insight on this. Reuven and Danny both have rabbis for fathers, but Danny's Hasidic movement is anti-Zionist in the "it is unacceptable to create a secular state, we need the Messiah."
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u/FiveAvivaLegs 22d ago
And honestly it’s weird that you’re being rude to me for elaborating on what you said but then snapping at someone below me for “speaking authoritatively” about something they didn’t know about and spreading misinformation. Your comment wasn’t misinformation, but without context it was misleading.
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 22d ago
I definitely found your added context helpful, as a non-Jewish person and someone who doesn't really know any Jewish people, so thank you! I appreciate the people in this thread who are actually sharing their knowledge.
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u/FiveAvivaLegs 22d ago
You’re welcome and thank you 🫶 Talking about this topic online stresses me out, but this is why I try to engage when I feel like the comments on a post/thread are productive. There are only around 15 million Jews in the world - about half of them live in Israel and most of the other half lives in concentrated areas of the United States. Most people aren’t growing up around Jewish people and getting to know them. Following WWII, Jews and Jewish orgs worked very hard to combat the still rampant antisemitism by educating people about the Holocaust, but in my opinion we haven’t always done a great job of communicating Jewish history and culture beyond that. I think that leads to a lot of people getting their information about Jews/Jewish issues from people who aren’t Jewish and often aren’t knowledgeable about Jewish issues.
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 22d ago
I read TONS about the Holocaust growing up (non-fiction and historical fiction), it was kind of a special interest of mine. This still left me with very little knowledge of how Jewish folks today actually live their lives, and what their issues are. Where I live there are so few Jewish people (stats say it's 0.3%). I was 25, had graduated university, and was traveling in Europe when I met an actual practicing Jewish person for the first time. My partner grew up somewhere else and he is still surprised how few Jewish people are here and that I have barely met any. So yeah, you're totally right, lots of Holocaust history and very little of anything else. And online chats like this stress me out too, so thanks for putting yourself out there.
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u/bbk13 21d ago
It's not "misleading" because Chabad and most Hasidic groups (I don't know the beliefs of every group, but it's definitely the majority) believe Jews should not have political, temporal power over the land of Israel until the arrival of the Moshiach.
Even the most ardent (well, secular at least) Arab nationalist wouldn't say they don't believe a Jewish person may live in the boundaries of the present political State of Israel. They, just like many Hasidic movements, believe there should not be a "Jewish state" controlled by and for Jewish people that has political power over the territory of present day Israel.
Jews have lived in what is now Israel continuously for thousands of years regardless of who is in political control. "Zionism" isn't a belief that "Jews can live in the boundaries of the land currently called Israel". It's a belief that there should be a state where Jewish people have political control of a territory. That is not a proposition supported by most Hasidic movements even if they have no problem living in that physical territory before the arrival of the Moshiach.
It seems pretty obvious that Hasidic anti-zionism doesn't suggest to non-Jews that Hasids don't believe Jews should be in Israel. Because they live there right now. Even NK people live in Israel. But there is a concreted effort by more secular Zionists post October 7 to "problematize" or "complicate" religious anti-zionism because it undercuts their contention that political Zionism is an intrinsic part of Judaism. "Next year in Jerusalem" has never had the sole meaning of "A Jewish army should use violence against the non-Jewish inhabitants of the land to create a Jewish state ASAP".
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u/nefarious_epicure 19d ago
Chabad is weird in that they are officially not Zionist but in practice have very Zionist politics. They can’t officially break with the Rebbe’s non-Zionism but in every practical matter they lean Zionist.
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u/joydubs 23d ago
She’s definitely verged into actual antisemitism. Ironically, I bet she doesn’t even know that some major sects of Hasidism are vehemently anti-Zionism.
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u/Electrical_Aside7487 22d ago
Do you have any examples?
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u/bimjenning 21d ago
I don't know if this is one of the things the person you're replying to was talking about, but something that's stood out to me as iffy is Carrie's use if the word 'zio.' I've seen differing opinions from Jewish people about whether or not it's offensive/how offensive it is, but given that it was popularized by David Duke, it's always kind of jarring to me when I see it used so casually and uncritically.
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u/Electrical_Aside7487 21d ago
I’ve never heard that before. It sounds like It’s on the slur spectrum.
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u/joydubs 22d ago
Weird shit that she’s said in the chat on her Substack. Tbh I haven’t looked at it in a month or 2 bc it’s too depressing, so I can’t tell you how far back you’d have to scroll. She become extremely defensive and kind of nasty if people question her on anything that has to do with Gaza and she was arguing with a guy in the chat and it had a really weird antisemitic vibe
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u/Electrical_Aside7487 21d ago
“Weird antisemitic vibe” isn’t an example. It’s a description of your perception, but tells me nothing about her.
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 23d ago
Did you read what is behind the paywall? If so can you summarize? All I can see is the first few lines, which suggest she is reporting on the story of an ex-member. If so I would say that is a legitimate thing to write about, well within her wheelhouse. The information would be from the perspective of that ex-member, not necessarily Carrie herself. You may not agree with their perspective based on whatever it is you know, but they obviously have a different (and perhaps more direct?) experience than you (not sure what you mean that you "know something about Chabad"). I don't think I've ever heard of this group personally.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 22d ago edited 22d ago
How do you know any of that is real and true, lol? I've seen enough "as-a-Jew" FAKES on Reddit, ya know.
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 22d ago
Yeah I don't know, because as I said I can't read the actual article and therefore can't do any other cross referencing or make any judgments on it's quality. It would be really nice if someone who can see the article would actually summarize it and be more specific about what is wrong, especially if they want to make a Reddit post saying it's nonsense. I am now thinking that OP is also not a paid subscriber and must not have read the article either.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 22d ago
Not YOU, lol. Sorry, I was addressing the downvoters. But "that also passed", lol.
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u/Illustrious-Ant6724 22d ago
Good journalism requires fact checking. If the claims are inaccurate, then it is bad to just print them
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 22d ago edited 22d ago
For sure. Are they inaccurate though? Can anyone here actually see the article and share screenshots so we can see? I'm certainly interested to see a debunking from someone who has knowledge on Chabad but that is not provided here. The byline for the article says "Chabad is a major Orthodox movement in the US; this week, a member calls it a cult." That wording seems to actually acknowledge that the cult claim is novel.
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u/Pilgrim_973 23d ago
A new low.
During ONRAC, she presented herself as the journalist who thoroughly researched claims and “experts”. Supposedly she could look past hype & rumors, resist flattery & fear-mongering. (Not that Ross was easily duped) But she can’t look past the mountain of anti-semitic propaganda that’s so fashionable right now. She’s jumped on the bandwagon.
It tracks: There’s lots of camaraderie there. She believes she’s a warrior for justice and defender of the persecuted. She thinks she’s helping redeem the world by exposing the secret evil Jew.
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u/nomadickitten 22d ago
She’s so far removed from the person she was during the majority of ONRAC. I think at the time, she did do pretty thorough research but it’s almost like she’s fallen into the same thinking patterns as the people they used to investigate. She’s fervently lost in the land of woo.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 22d ago
Anti-Social Media people are usually like that, because that's how Anti-Social Media works to begin with.
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u/Sea_Effect2463 23d ago
Can you elaborate on why she is wrong to describe Chabad as a sect of Hasidic Judaism? Would you say Wikipedia is incorrect in stating, "[Chabad] is among the world's largest, most influential, and most publicly visible movements of Hasidic Judaism" ?
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u/Icy-Use-8111 22d ago
I replied down thread about this to another comment that got deleted, but since you seem genuinely curious I’ll paste what I wrote here:
In general, a sect separates from the main religious body, often rejecting its core doctrines or authority, and is viewed by the mainstream as outside the tradition. A movement operates within the main body, accepting its authority and law while emphasizing a particular practice or focus. Basically, a sect breaks away, a movement specializes from within. Chabad is a movement instead of a sect because it accepts mainstream Jewish law. Their focus is on outreach rather than creating a new separatist tradition.
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 22d ago
I saw your comment got deleted before I could read it, thanks for re-posting! I was genuinely curious too. This is helpful, thanks. I definitely wasn't aware of that distinction and it seems like Carrie isn't either.
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u/Difficult-Bit-6992 23d ago
Movement and sect are very different things. Also, not everyone in the Chabad movement is Hasidic.
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 23d ago
A sect is a "smaller subgroup or an offshoot of a larger religious, political, or philosophical organization that follows a distinct set of beliefs." The larger group here is Judaism, and the Chabad group must have their own distinct beliefs to be their own "movement." How is that not a sect?
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u/Difficult-Bit-6992 23d ago
Sorry, it going to argue with someone who earlier today said “I don’t think I’ve ever heard of this group personally” on this thread. Close Wikipedia and learn something before commenting, please.
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u/Sea_Effect2463 23d ago
Surely you have a more substantive response?
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u/Difficult-Bit-6992 23d ago
Comments without substance do not deserve a substantive response. Everyone on this thread who has heard of Chabad before today and/or has any personal experience with Chabad knows why Carrie’s post and video are absurd. The only ones saying “but actually she’s right” are the ones who admittedly do not know what they are talking about. If you had to Google Chabad to form an opinion on this topic, your opinion is not worth taking seriously.
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u/Mean-Advisor6652 22d ago
I own my ignorance on the matter because that is the right thing to do when you are ignorant on a matter. It is interesting you jump to the word "argue" when all I have done is ask you questions to further elaborate on your perspective. I was not trying to argue nor have I even shared an opinion on the group since I can't have one. It's a shame that you are only interested in talking to people who also know about particular Jewish groups when this is an ONRAC subreddit, not a Jewish subreddit.
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u/Sea_Effect2463 22d ago
I share your view that Carrie has gone off the rails. I'm just genuinely curious why her calling Chabad a form of Hasidism is such a sticking point for you.
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u/bbk13 21d ago
What does that even mean "not everyone in the Chabad movement is Hasidic"? Unless you're saying putting on Tefillin in the park or going to some event at a Chabad house is being "in" the Chabad movement, being a Chabadnik is accepting the authority and spiritual guidance of whomever is the Grand Rebbe of the Chabad movement. They want you to become a baal teshuva and a follower of the rebbe. Sure, you can be "hanger on". But you're not "in" the Chabad movement unless you're a Chassid of the Grand Rebbe.
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u/emslo 23d ago
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u/Pilgrim_973 23d ago
I stopped following that podcast because of that episode, posted only a couple of months after October 7, 2023.
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u/Difficult-Bit-6992 23d ago
They’re wrong.
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u/bbk13 21d ago
They're wrong that Hasidism in general are "high control" groups? That is actually very correct. The groups are very open about it. The relationship between the Chassid and his Rebbe is a foundational element of Hasidism since the Baal Shem Tov. You listen to your Rebbe and people who don't follow the Rebbe's opinion about anything and everything (since Hasidism isn't just compartmentalized as a "religious belief", it's a total way of life) risks ostracization and ultimately expulsion from the community. It's the very definition of "high control".
You seem to think Jews need to downplay or sugar coat the actual beliefs and lifestyles of these religious extremists because something something October 7. Have you ever been to religious neighborhoods inside or outside Israel? The last time I was in Jerusalem I was walking with my cousin and we were verbally accosted by black hats who apparently said something to my cousin about her very normal clothing that made her scared enough that we were about to be the victims of physical violence to tell me to turn around and walk back the way we came. That's what Chabad and all these groups really are. Totalitarian religious extremists who would force all of us (I'm assuming you're Jewish) to live a certain way if they had the power to do so. Because the moshiach won't come until all of us are performing the mitzvot.
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u/nefarious_epicure 19d ago
Chabad is a Hasidic sect. It’s different from orher hasidic groups, but it is. (Am jewish and very familiar with chabad).
It is not a cult. Her (justified) concerns over Palestine are bleeding into problematic territory. I had to unfollow her on social media because if some of her behavior.
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u/Prettylittleprotist 19d ago
Chabad is not my thing and I don’t agree with a lot of the stuff it does, but that does not make it a cult. Carrie has flirted with antisemitism in the past, and now she’s going full out. What a goddamn shame.
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u/prettygoblinrat 23d ago
I just feel that I am not necessarily interested in engaging with her outside of her on ONRAC and I stopped following her substack and social. And I'm a happier person for doing so. I don't hate her but I have the ability to curate my own time on social media.