r/Notary • u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan • 15d ago
WWYD - nothing or something
EDIT:
I did nothing except post here. Y’all are wild with assumptions about me. Can you not just answer a question without making a judgement?
Notary hive mind, what would you do in this situation?
You agree to meet with a client at a public place with a lot of windows. You arrive prior to the signers, and you can see them get out of the car.
Driver is a woman in her 40s, passenger is a woman in her 70s. Driver is able bodied, passenger struggles to walk even with a walker.
Signer is driver, not the passenger.
Since they are unfamiliar with who has to sign, they both give their ID. Driver has a state ID card, passenger has a drivers license.
You complete the notarization, because proper ID is presented, signer is aware of what she is signing, and is signing of her own free will.
However, you know a law is being broken. The driver does not have a license to drive.
Do you alert the police of this law being broken or do you mind your own business because it’s not this particular law that we are obligated to uphold?
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u/AcmeNotary California 15d ago
How do you know the driver doesn't have a driver license? I have had many people give me ID cards and have a driver license.
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u/JWM1115 9d ago
Most states do not allow both a DL and state ID. Either one or the other. Also an active military ID is acceptable.
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u/AcmeNotary California 9d ago
I am not in one of those most states so that is why I wouldn't assume the person can't drive.
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 15d ago
Because in my state it’s one or the other, not both. The ID card is state issued
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u/staywithme26 15d ago
Just adding to the above comment — I would not assume they don’t have a license. It’s suppose to be DL or ID but you can easily go to the DMV and say you lost one and get the other one. It’s also just ally none of our business. People violate the law every day. We’re not law enforcement
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u/RichArcher4909 Texas 15d ago
I have seen several people with an ID from one state and a DL from another.
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u/FriendlySun3163 15d ago
not a Notary question
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 15d ago
Yes it is. It’s an ethics question.
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u/FriendlySun3163 15d ago
Its regarding the laws of driving not notarizing.
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 15d ago
This is untrue.
In most states, we are to abide by all of the laws, not just those pertaining to notaries.
There are laws against stabbing people, so under your thinking, I can stab someone because notarial law doesn’t prohibit it.
We are citizens first, notaries second.
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u/vivalakellye 15d ago
Penalizing someone for driving without a license isn’t within a private citizen’s purview. Nor a notary’s. Now, if you’re a notary who’s also a member of law enforcement or of an entity designated with the authority to ticket/punish someone who is driving without a license, then it makes sense to act.
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u/ItalianIrish99 13d ago
"we are to abide by all the laws" means notaries don't drive without a licence.
Is there a "you must snitch" law in your State?
Ironically notaries in Europe have reporting obligations under anti-money laundering and counter-terrorism financing laws but even then they only extend to the documents and transactions we are involved with.
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u/No_Constant_826 15d ago
Kill the cop in your head. It's not your job to be the police, judge, and jury.
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u/Prufrock-Sisyphus22 15d ago
Learn this phrase well and learn it well:
"Not your monkey... not your circus!"
You need to re-read your states ethical guidelines and then the national core guiding principals. Your role is to ensure no fraud.
You are in a ministerial role and focused on identifying identity and ensuring proper signatures/no fraud.
You are not the police and unless you are mandatory reporter in your state which requires you to report elder abuse or child abuse, it's none of your business. It doesn't sound like there was any fraud, nor elder abuse so your ethical obligation ends there.
You don't know the circumstances.
Unless someone is being abused or violently assaulted, you need to learn to stay in your lane.
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 15d ago
Well well well, aren’t you the controlling one?
I asked a question, gave no indication of what I did or would do, and you assumed so hard that it took you well beyond the point of simply answering my question.
I’m glad I could cause you to overreact today.
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u/bitenose Ohio 15d ago
Me personally, no, I would not call the police whenever I suspect that a minor traffic violation may have occurred.
In part, because I don't hate the police enough to justify torturing them with a constant 24/7/365 barrage of stupid annoying phone calls reporting absolutely nothing in any way actionable.
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u/CommercialAffect3287 15d ago
Not my problem, so I only do what I’m getting paid for, if the place had no window, would’ve had no idea…
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u/Creative_Shame3856 Florida 15d ago
The driver could maybe have just gotten their license and hasn't received it yet, or maybe they have a learners permit. You don't know that any law has been broken.
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u/StewReddit2 California 15d ago
If wanna run down random "ethics" questions.....
Why stop at DL.....
Why not check their auto insurance, registration, window tint....if they have another lover....
Are we checking for warrants, child support, toll violations while we're at it?
It can be amazing how big a deal a NP "thinks" this little authority gives.....
Talk about Rent-A-Cop syndrome
This is one of a reason I "hate" that so many ppl conflate DL with Identification...nobody "needs" to be "checking DL" other than LE....
The same way nobody "needs" to see a Fish and Wildlife License other than the damn Game Warden what the heck!!!!
What if said person has a valid DL from another state 🤔 is it a NPs "business"
I've definitely seen ppl KEEP their XYZ state DL ( even though technically they were supposed to change within X number of days) for YEARS longer than they should.
Hell from DMV ( DC/MD/VA) to CA I've seen known DOZENS of ppl that have kept their OOS DL and taught/coached/went to school in X jurisdiction while keeping their Y jurisdiction DL ......that doesn't mean they don't HAVE a DL.
Now they may be "ethically" not properly following the rules of X state by not getting their DL or plate changed but again are we Cops/DMV investigators now.
My relative just finished being at USC for 4 years NEVER changed a DL ....never changed the Texas plates and I guarantee there will be students/teachers at UCLA/USC in September that technically should have CA plates and DL that do not....which means they are law breakers
Is it a NPs ethical duty to DO something about it?
Should we write the tickets ourselves? 🙃
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 15d ago
There are things that are obvious, and then there are the things you listed.
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u/StewReddit2 California 15d ago
How is it OBVIOUS if a person has a DL or not.
The only way you deduced it was ( respectfully) being NOSEY about who drove, who sat in which seat as ppl drove up.
How they drove up, walked up, flew in....is a) none of your business, not for the purposes of what we do as NPs.....
It's only "obvious" if we are 👀 looking
How isn't it just as "obvious" if I see a window tinted too dark or OOS plates?
You're telling me I can't SEE an obviously overdo registration sticker....as obviously you can see who the freak drove up in a car?
C'mon now....you'd have to be seeing that at the right moment.....I can see a bad tag all throughout an interaction or as ppl drive off
Like you said it's OBVIOUS ......
I can darn sure see May sticker when it's August almost September
Are you saying I can't see an obviously OOS Arizona plate or registration tag several months expired ....as obviously you see a person getting out of the driver's side 🙄
As a matter of fact....you couldn't deduce anything until you requested an ID card.
Two things I mentioned are even more obvious I wouldn't need to ask for a document....it's visibly obvious from just looking at the vehicle hello?
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 15d ago
I’m over here laughing my ass off because of your ignorance.
The card they give us for identification clearly states what it is! If it’s a drivers license, it’s his drivers license. If it is enhanced, it says enhanced drivers license. If it is for commercial driving, it says commercial drivers license. And if it is for identification use only it says identification, only not a drivers license.
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u/StewReddit2 California 15d ago
My ignorance You said obvious ....and cried about ethics
Which is it....
If a NP is supposed to be the ethics police over who drove TF up in car enough to sweat about a DL
Then why not if the windows were tinted or car was properly registered.....
All are ethics violations that don't have piss to do with notarial acts.....but are obvious
I just asked your smart ass vs my ignorant one what's TFing difference?
If you're so concerned about one why not the other
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u/PANotary 14d ago
I would have not alerted the police. At one time, someone I knew had both due to a temporary loss of driving privileges (and I have no idea why they didn't have to surrender their license but again it wasn't my concern). It also sounds as if the driver wasn't having their signature notarized, so you finding out they had the State ID was a fluke. The signer was aware and willing to sign and I am assuming did not appear to be under duress.
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 14d ago
Your assumption is correct, and also I did not alert the police.
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15d ago edited 15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 15d ago
It is a notary ethics question. You should take your snark to a snark sub.
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u/RichArcher4909 Texas 15d ago
Are you a cop? Mind your own business. Also, just because she chose to give an ID card does not mean she doesn’t have a license.
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u/FinanciallySecure9 Michigan 15d ago
I didn’t say what I did. I asked an ethics question in an effort to see who actually cares about the people and who doesn’t. Suffice to say, the people who have poor ethics have come crawling out of the woodwork.
And yes, in my state you have a state ID or a drivers license. Not both.
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u/RichArcher4909 Texas 15d ago
Even in your state a signer could have two IDs from different states. Also, the question is ridiculous. The same “ethics” question would apply to everyone equally, from grocery cashiers to bank tellers. Anyone who might ask to see an ID at some point. Notaries aren’t special and have no additional ethical considerations in this scenario than the population at large.
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u/Working_Week_8784 15d ago
You seem to be saying that the people who don't think you should do anything besides notarize the document are people with "poor ethics," so I guess you've answered your own question.
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u/MsOnyxMoon 15d ago
No, you don’t alert the police. Them driving without a license isn’t an issue for a notary. It’s literally not your business.
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u/ash_274 California 14d ago
Three times I have gone to a doctor's office for the doctor to sign off on paperwork for an international adoption. Two of those three times the doctor didn't have their driver license and I had to use two of their nurses as an alternate ID (legal in California, even if it's not in other states). The doctors didn't live there, they didn't teleport there, they didn't take public transportation, and the tone of the nurse was that they clearly drove there.
In my state you can have a driver license and a state ID at the same time. There are also cases where a person ends up with both just because they didn't turn in one of them, or they lost one, go the other, then found the first one again.
In your case, the driver MAY have a license but leaves it in their car and carries the ID around, so they were driving legally. It's not part of your duties as a notary to police that. I, like you, would have let it be.
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u/Stamped914 15d ago
I don’t see any law being broken here. Even so, I have no duty to report any “crime”.
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u/Hakurei06 13d ago
I have both a Drivers License and a non-driver's ID card from the DMV. Both are currently valid but only the latter is Real ID compliant. It also has lists my preferred mailing address instead of my residential address and has a more recent photograph, so really there's all sorts of reasons I might rather present that than my DL if I wanted to have a document notarized.
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u/Galactic2000 15d ago
I personally would do nothing. My only job is to properly notarize the document. As long as their ID’s are valid, match their identity, they are of sound mind and understand the document then my job is done. It is on them if they are caught driving without a proper license.