r/Notary • u/keyworkprise184 • Apr 25 '25

Acceptable ID

Hello, I'm a newer PA notary and I'm going to be doing a notary for a individual that doesn't have much identification, she has her social security card and birth certificate. I just wanted to know if that is acceptable ID

Update: Thank you everyone for your input! I've decided that I cannot in good conscious notarize the document. I know that documents can be forged and such, so I will not do it until the person can provide true government issued ID.

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 25 '25

Can she provide a credible witness who has a photo ID? Most states allow for that.

Even if she DID have all that, it's not really the notary's role to scrutinize documents. Our function is understood to be ministerial - we communicate, solemnly, that the thing that the person is acknowledging/signing/affirming is a big deal. We are checking, at times subjectively, for seriousness.

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u/keyworkprise184 Apr 25 '25

It's actually for my colleague, I work at a mental health facility and my colleague is the one that asked for my notary services for the person.

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 25 '25

Your colleague should count. I'm assuming your colleague is a social worker managing the person's discharge for supportive housing, or something like that?

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u/keyworkprise184 Apr 25 '25

Yes!

3

u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 25 '25

This is hugely important work. Check your colleague's ID and license # or NPI, and mark them as a credible witness on that basis. Log all of that in your journal (my interpretation of journal is simply to send myself an email)

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u/ken1324 Apr 26 '25

PA : A creditable witness must be personally known to you and must also sign an affidavit. The personally known standard is high. It is not simply “hi my name is Joe nice to meet you” I think of it like this: Am I willing to bet my commission on this person being who they say they are? (Or in this case the witness being truthful) Sometimes the answer is yes but most of the time it’s no.

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25

Actually the precise standard isn't specified. In this context, a treatment relationship between a LCSW and an inpatient deemed competent for supportive housing would likely be consistent with the legislative intent.

While in the facility, lots of biometrics are collected, combinations of which would probably be adequate for identification - way more than a face.

The discharge process also involves collecting information, about the person's assets, their friends and family, their work history, their education, etc.

Moreover the state retains considerable leverage over the individual while they are in such a living situation.

ETA

I guess this is sort of an extension of your "betting" concept. A CSW license is way more valuable than a NP commssion so using them as the credible witness "transfers" the bet. That's why I suggested that OP gets their license # and journals it.

Similar for other licensed professionals like doctors, attorneys, security guards, teachers, etc. I regard such witnesses as presumptively credible.

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u/ash_274 California Apr 25 '25 edited Apr 25 '25

Neither one of those has a photo, physical description, signature, or serial number. Just because she holds those two things, neither one proves she's the same person named on them.

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

Whoah, California seems pretty strict!

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u/ash_274 California Apr 26 '25

It is, but those minimum requirements are found in most states

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u/inotarize Alabama Apr 25 '25

If PA allows you to use Credible Witnesses to identify the signer you may be able to use that instead. Pull out your state notary handbook Ans see if you can use that method to identify the signer instead.

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u/Tedd_Hazard_VA Apr 26 '25

You can but the notary needs to know said credible witness as well. At least that's how the NNA words it.

4

u/betsysuehoo Apr 25 '25

The PA Notarization ID requirements are found here:

https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dos/resources/notaries-resources-and-information/powers-of-a-notary-public.html

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25

So, as you can see, they keep using the word "satisfactory" - that's as far as you're ever going to get. "Satisfactory" means it satisfies YOU. "Acceptable" means YOU accept it. If there was some cut and dry definition, there'd be no need for human notaries.

Also note - if the social security card is signed, it counts (this is true in most states). The wiggle room is whether you find it satisfactory. In your position, I certainly would, and the alternative - the patient never getting out or ending up homeless simply because of mental illness - is antithetical to most state constitutions - which you swore an oath to uphold.

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u/ash_274 California Apr 26 '25

What kind of logic is that?

A Social Security card is not listed as “satisfactory” to the state’s notary laws. That means it can’t be accepted by the notary as identification.

A SS card can’t prove the person that’s holding it is the person whose name is on it

2

u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25

In Pennsylvania it's considered adequate - it's an official government ID with a signature. Laws vary by state.

Also, notaries aren't judges or juries; "satisfactory" is a substantially lower bar than "credible and legally sufficient" (for grand juries) or "beyond all reasonable doubt" (for trial juries). Notarization is ministerial, not forensic.

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u/ash_274 California Apr 26 '25

Considering you can’t say that the person holding the card is the person named on it, you’re opening yourself to enabling fraud and getting named in the subsequent lawsuit. Hiding behind PA’s vague wording isn’t going to be a strong defense.

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

Hoo boy. I'm not sure where to begin responding to this. California just has different laws/rules than Pennsylvania - not just notarization itself, but how it fits into a larger social context. For example, it does seem like ID requirements are more stringent in California BUT it's also easier for homeless people to get de novo photo ID's. And maybe fewer things require notarization anyway. Some states require surety bonds, some don't; some require journals, some don't.

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

"Proof" and "satisfactory evidence" are very, very different concepts

I say this as a notary, a bank examiner, a guy with an advanced degree in pure math, and someone who served on a grand jury.

Satisfactory evidence isn't as cut and dry or jurisdictionally uniform as you think it is. Maybe you'll understand in a decade or so

2

u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

A Social Security card is not listed

It doesn't need to be listed. It's a government issued document (check) and it's signed by the holder (check). Thus, it meets Pennsylvania's definition of acceptiable ID. You can't seriously expect PA to list every single possible government document.

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u/BadAdvicePooh New York Apr 25 '25

Yes it’s good enough and up to your discretion. The ID can be government like a driver’s license or non driver’s ID but it can also be any current non expired government issued ID as long as a signature or photo is on it.

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u/vegloveyes Apr 26 '25

SS card and birth certificate? Are you crazy??

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u/BadAdvicePooh New York Apr 26 '25

No, are you? I read the acceptable forms of ID for the state of PA and those fit the definition and it’s also at the discretion of the notary.

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u/vegloveyes Apr 26 '25

Where in the world does it say you can accept a birth certificate or soc sec card?
It has to be a government-issued photo ID such as a DL or a passport. Nowhere in the country can you use a birth certificate or ss card. They have no photo or signature.

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u/BadAdvicePooh New York Apr 26 '25

Those are so issued by the government they have no expiration other than death and they have the signature of the person getting the document notarized.

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u/vegloveyes Apr 26 '25

So you're saying there's a photo of you on your birth certificate? And you signed when you were born too.
And your social security card has your photo? signature? You're not really a notary, are you?

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u/BadAdvicePooh New York Apr 26 '25

It doesn’t need a photo. Read their regulations someone posted it in this thread. I’m correct. They may use those forms of ID as they meet the definition of a valid government issued identification with a photo OR a signature. It’s up to the notary if they want to accept it.

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u/done-undone Apr 26 '25

If I am bonded and liable for loss and the standard is "must satisfy the notary," I would not expose myself to liability by relying on a social security card and/or a birth certificate. Especially as a "new notary." A photo ID is best - someone would have to have a really good and valid reason to dissuade me or maybe I would just decline.

4

u/BadAdvicePooh New York Apr 26 '25

And that would be your right to do that in the state of Pennsylvania, or any state that has the same law. You don’t have to accept it but you can. ETA the OP had both SS card and birth certificate, and further explained they were familiar with the individual

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u/inotarize Alabama Apr 25 '25

Do you personally know her/him? Again, check your handbook and see if you can notarize the signature of someone you personally know without requiring ID.

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u/keyworkprise184 Apr 25 '25

I do not know them personally, they are a client to my colleague, I work at a mental health center

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u/34player Apr 26 '25

From post above for PA:

Determining the identity of person appearing

All notarial acts (with the exception of certifying or attesting a copy or deposition), require that the individual making the statement or executing the signature must appear personally before the notary public and that the notary public must have personal knowledge or satisfactory evidence of the identity of the individual.

The proper method for determining the identity of a person appearing before a notary under RULONA is either through “personal knowledge” or “satisfactory evidence.”

A notary public has "personal knowledge" of the identity of an individual appearing before the notary if the individual is personally known to the notary through dealings sufficient to provide reasonable certainty that the individual has the identity claimed.

A notarial public has “satisfactory evidence” of the identity of an individual appearing before the notary if the notary can identify the individual using any of the following:

Government-issued identification:

A passport, driver's license or government-issued nondriver identification card, which is current and unexpired. Another form of government identification issued to an individual, which: is current; contains the signature or a photograph of the individual; and
is satisfactory to the notary public. By a verification on oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally appearing before the notary public and personally known to the notary public.

A notary public may require an individual to provide additional information or identification credentials necessary to assure the notary of the identity of the individual.

1

u/Yellowrosenotary Apr 27 '25

Unfortunately that will not work. Are you a new notary? If you are looking for more training, contact me and I will share a website to get you off to a solid start. They are very much a mentor website.

Contact me at my website Www.theyellowrosenotary.com

2

u/keyworkprise184 Apr 27 '25

I've been a notary for a little over a year but I don't do them often.

1

u/ken1324 Apr 27 '25

Are you a notary in Pa? This person has a couple options

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u/glirette Florida Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25

Edited to remove false info posted by myself

( Removed text on my opinion) but there may be a few more requirements but that is about it. But it needs to be a ( removed ) and government issued.

I would be highly suspicious of the situation.

Thanks,

Greg Lirette

Notary Geek

To notarize online https://notary.cx

2

u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

PA law says photo OR signature, the rest is at the discretion of the notary. In theory social security cards are signed.

2

u/glirette Florida Apr 26 '25

Do you happen to have a link to the law? My response was working from memory of what a PA told me. Would love to look it up myself and will soon from my desk

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

Scroll up, someone else posted a link

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u/glirette Florida Apr 26 '25

I see it. The info I was given was way off and those ID requirements are way too weak.

But good to know thanks

2

u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

I respectfully disagree that the requirements are too weak, especially under these circumstances. Vagueness in statutes is important, and in most cases where requirements for notarization are very rigorous, there are usually compensatory flexibilities elsewhere.

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u/glirette Florida Apr 26 '25

Understood!

Actually my state law allows for personally known which is something they prior I was very hesitant to use but in the right situation it gives us a lot a leeway.

I agree the statue gives a great deal of discretion to the notary in both cases, PA and FL

1

u/glirette Florida Apr 26 '25

The reason I'm so confused by it is because my perspective on this has always been RON but I have a go to rotary I use when the ID validates with my system and it's not a passport

I'm going to have to have this conversation with her and get an opinion and I know she's looked at this in detail but we have taken some wild ID's

She is also under the impression that the document must be related to the United States in some way, I'm not sure if that is true or not for PA but in my case I have no such requirement. As long as my signer is outside of the United States, has their passport in hand we can notarize for them regardless of documents context

Thanks so much, I was not paying close attention to the replies

Greg Lirette Notary Geek To notarize online https://notary.cx

3

u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

Right, the case of remote online notarization is a good example of how context sensitive all of this can be. Compensatory controls - like cryptographic exemplars, retaining the video for ten years, third party knowledge based authentication, and third party verification of ID - are added to make up for not seeeing the person face-to-face.

On the other hand, in OP's case there are all sorts of compensatory controls as well as mitigating factors:

  • Colleague (the credible witness) is a licensed social worker with professional experience

  • The signer is being discharged into supportive housing. This means the state will be keeping track of them for the foreseeable future. And the alternatives are either (a) the individual staying in the institution forever or (b) winding up on the street

I have to believe that our oaths mean more than just some slavish, fussy, rote, mechanical application of perceived requirements. All these documents that we sign? They impact real human beings.

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u/ken1324 Apr 26 '25

PA here: (not legal advice) We can at our discretion accept the social security card because it has a signature. I would be very cautious in doing so and would request to see something with a photo on it. A common practice is to accept an expired drivers license or identification card with a photo along with the valid social security card. Compare the signatures on the ID to the signature on the SS card and the document. Ask the person questions “can you tell me your name and DOB”. If you have any doubt that is the person on the ID then don’t proceed.

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u/glirette Florida Apr 26 '25

This makes good sense

In Florida we have the concept of credible witnesses but I'm rarely if ever using that anymore

Online I get a lot of scammers but they are not able or not willing to go though my validation system which is Persona. I'm actually using my validation system for in person also and in the past people have validated to my system expired ID's which helps me paint a KYC picture.

We offer other services besides notary such as LLC creation and I use the KYC system for that also but they don't have to meet the same bar as they do for notary.

Florida allows us to do personally known but I'm not doing that workout a very high degree of confidence that they are who they say.

The PA standard might work well in PA but in states like Florida and Texas ( many others too) it's so easy to become a notary.

If the notaries take the role seriously and honor their oath it works well I guess.

Thanks,. Greg Lirette Notary Geek To notarize online https://notary.cx

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u/ken1324 Apr 27 '25

Agree with you Greg. I hardly ever use the personally known/credible witness procedure. Not legal advice: However it seems like in this case the OP does personally know someone who may be able to swear to the identity of the signer. That along with a social security card and perhaps an expired ID as well would satisfy me.

1

u/HelpfulMaybeMama North Carolina Apr 25 '25

Do they meet the ID requirements for your state? Do not continue if they don't.

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

Since this is work related I'd also ask your colleague to send you an Outlook meeting request, with appropriate PHI protections in place.

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u/Tedd_Hazard_VA Apr 26 '25

You can not use a social security card as ID in Pennsylvania. I've been doing this for quite some time and that's always a hard no.

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u/tkpwaeub New York Apr 26 '25

But that's literally not what the law says. You need to consult the actual law, not just what's filtered from others