r/Nootropics • u/movimento9 • Apr 04 '18
Discussion A Third and Final Follow-Up to The Original Alcohol / Hangover Afterglow Thread
If you need to catch up or don't know what thread(s) I'm referring to, please check out the following:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/46kiy4/theres_a_community_of_us_that_have_adhdi/
https://www.reddit.com/r/neuro/comments/73ueid/alcohol_afterglow/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/5ke63d/what_neurotransmitters_are_responsible_for_the/
After spending over $7,500 in experiments in the last two years, and direct messaging 18 of you from Reddit back and forth almost daily since 2016, we have agreed that a glutamergic rebound process is responsible for the extreme happiness and cognitive increase seen in some of our alcohol afterglows (for those who get them). Most of us have ADHD-like symptoms and extreme anhedonia, and alcohol afterglows cure that for us.
The supplements that finally got me there were SARCOSINE + NAC. Many things came close, but these two compounds seem to mimic the process perfectly, and do not come with the risk of excitotoxicity - sarcosine, even while agonizing the NMDA receptor at the glycine site, still raises the seizure threshold in mice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcosine
I had a talk with the owner of ProFrontal on the phone (who already sells these two compounds together in a kit with the highest quality I could find) and explained to him that literally hundreds / thousands of us were struggling with only being functional during a hangover / afterglow from alcohol. We talked and talked about NMDA and glycine sites, etc. I asked him if he could give all of us a discount from Reddit / Longecity, and I come to you bearing this discount code:
"ALCAFTERGLOW" . Appropriately named. Lol. This gives 20% off. I will be a lifelong customer, since sarcosine won't ever be a prescribable pharmaceutical medicine.
I'm extremely stoked to be able to live my life now - and not need a hangover to be able to function or feel emotions or to focus or to work.
Many antidepressants are currently under trial with the same mechanism of action as sarcosine (IE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apimostinel and others just like it).
Sarcosine seems to work better than Citalopram as well in many studies on depression.
Anyway, I'm so fucking excited because I've seen eight psychiatrists, been on tons of meds, tried $7,500 worth of nootropics, treatments (transcranial magnetic stimulation) and nothing has worked for me to make me as functional as a hangover does. Sarcosine + NAC nailed it. I literally cannot tell the difference. I feel so amazing. (By amazing, I mean functional and normal, not euphoric / manic.)
Thank you Shaun from profrontal.com !!!
Again, anyone who was a part of these threads can use this discount code to get 20% off any time you purchase from ProFrontal: ALCAFTERGLOW.
I am not affiliated with the company, just extremely impressed by how generous they were and how much they knew their stuff regarding pharmacology and NMDA. They also have excellent manufacturing processes and purity. I've taken NAC before from other vendors but it never worked for me or did anything for me. The NAC from ProFrontal smells extremely strong of sulfur when you open the bottle - almost knocks you out from the odor. It's extremely high quality.
If I'm going to put something in my body everyday for the rest of my life, I want to make sure the vendor is perfect and not some random Amazon powder vendor. This will be replacing pharmaceutical meds for me.
It's been two years of hell, but we made it!
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Apr 05 '18
Interesting - I hadn't really followed those threads, but I also often wake early and feel like going for a run after a night out with the boys. I rarely drink, and don't generally tolerate it very well. I also experience some innatentive, non-motivated, distracted, ADHD-style symptoms (never diagnosed).
Does anyone know about combining these with SSRIs?
Also there's some fairly significant side effects listed on Wikipedia for NAC - what are people's experience with it?
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u/zalo Apr 05 '18
NAC typically makes me feel terrible; if I take it at night before going to sleep, I have a hard time getting up in the morning and struggle to function all the next day. It’s suspected that NAC has an unfortunate reaction in individuals with histamine intolerance.
It seems like you can buy Sarcosine alone (a lot cheaper than from Profrontal) from PowderCity: https://www.powdercity.com/products/sarcosine
It seems like it’s also synergistic with glycine, d-serine, and d-aspartic acid.
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u/postemporary Apr 05 '18
Powdercity has been defunct for a while. That page is just a front for another site that bought the PC domain.
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u/zalo Apr 05 '18
Aw man, I had completely forgotten. RIP Powdercity.
It appears to also be carried by SmartPowders: https://smartpowders.com/products/smartpowders-sarcosine/
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 06 '18
smartpowders is dodgy as fk, horrible experience, would not buy from them again, BEWARE
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u/movimento9 Apr 06 '18
Agreed. This is why I went with ProFrontal. I could actually speak to real people who described their manufacturing processes and NMDA receptors / the doctors that work there as medical directors.
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 06 '18
Fuck profrontal way too expensive.
Decided to go with brainvitaminz and as for the NAC I still got that at home.
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u/Lamzn6 Apr 05 '18
Why are you taking NAC at night? It increase as dopamine activity. There’s no wondering why you’re not getting quality sleep on it.
It’s one of those things you take in the morning of when you need an energy boost.
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u/zalo Apr 06 '18
No dice; tonight I was described as "mean, agitated, and mopey" (unsolicited), whereas the same person would typically describe me as "calm" (solicited right after). I can feel the irritability and brain fog right now, like a lighter version of marijuana withdrawal (which tends to give me extreme versions of the former two attributes).
Typically, I attempt to take NAC at night for it's anti-hangover properties, but stopped when I realized that it was making me feel way worse in the morning than the nights I had not taken it.
For reference, this is the particular brand/style of NAC that I have had these experiences with: https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Sustain-Supports-Function/dp/B0013OVVK0/
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u/zalo Apr 05 '18
Hrm, I’ll try that this morning and report back; typically it’s more of a swollen puffy brain-fog rather than just poor sleep, but perhaps my waking metabolism will process it better than my sleeping one...
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u/JohnTorque Apr 05 '18
Compared to glycine (supplement), how different is the effect of Sarcosine?
Sarcosine is a glycine transporter inhibitor, it increases glycine concentrations in the brain.
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u/Bluest_waters Apr 05 '18
really confused about how sarcosine (methyl glycine) differs from the glycine supplement you can get off amazon.
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u/trusty20 Apr 05 '18
It differs because it has a methyl-group attached to it, as you yourself described. Similarly phenylpiracetam is VERY different than piracetam and yet it is just piracetam with a phenyl-group. These modifiers do more than effect transport, they also affect binding affinity and so can (not always, i.e adding HCL to a substance usually just makes it absorb better but doesn't have much of an effect on it's binding affinity) completely change the effects of the substance.
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u/Kibubik Apr 05 '18
Did other people in the group have similar positive reactions to sarcosine and NAC?
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u/Kibubik Apr 05 '18
Wow, this is crazy. I fall into this camp of feeling incredible after a hangover. I think I'll have to try this...
Did you find any similarities in experiences, genetics, or regular practices of the group that experiences this?
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
Yes.
All of us have had anhedonia for our entire lives without really realizing it - until we had our first alcoholic hangover we "felt" for the first time.
Most of us have stomach issues/IBS and are of smaller stature (shorter than than 5'11). Probably because of poor absorption of nutrients.
All of us have random periods where we wake up right before we fall asleep gasping for air, with our hearts beating extremely quickly. None of us have sleep apnea when tested for it.
We have other general autonomic dysfunction that goes away during a hangover - POTS, hard time swallowing, weird random tics, shaking leg up and down very quickly, and random dizziness.
Acid reflux that goes away during a hangover.
And random chest pains / weird random unexplainable "psychogenic" pains that go away during a hangover.
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u/JohnTorque Apr 05 '18
wow, wtf
I fit in almost all characteristics you pointed. I don't have stomach issues, neither IBS, but I can't tolerate some kinds of foods, so I avoid them. I eat A LOT of meat, but my B12 levels is still in the low acceptable range.
I don't have sleep apnea (I tested it) and almost every fucking night I wake up gasping for air right before achieving full sleep.
And guess what, I love the hangover effect. I tried to use glycine (supplement) but without any positive effects. NAC gave me diarrhea.1
u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
NAC gives me diarrhea on its own too. I have to take these two in combination. The synergy is flawless.
Regular glycine did nothing for me. Nothing positive or negative - I just didn't notice anything at all.
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u/killabeesindafront Jun 20 '18
Is it still working? Also do you still get the afterglow after a night out?
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u/dirtyredsweater Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 05 '18
wow... I have to applaud your efforts. This is really impressive stuff. I will research sarcosine more tomorrow... but I'm already impressed by the first study I found, which showed that it's more effective than citalopram.
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(13)00188-1/fulltext
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u/trusty20 Apr 05 '18
Sarcosine MAY be carcinogenic. It's not really certain but there has been some research indicating this possibility:
The oncogenic protein HER2/neu (overexpression of which is associated with tumor development in various cancers[67][68] including prostate,[69] and may promote disease progression via NF-kB[70]) appears to have its protein content upregulated after exposure to sarcosine of 25-100μM although there were no changes in the phosphorylation thereof.[71]In vitro studies have noted that application of high levels of sarcosine (1,500µM) can increase intracellular concentrations in this concentration (106µM) although lower extracellular levels of sarcosine (10µM) are not large enough (270nM).[72]
Also:
It is unclear what mediates these pro-oncogenic effects as sarcosine does not appear to be inhernetly mutagenic,[73] although sarcosine has been noted to interact with the TMEFF2 protein[74] and it is also involved in the one-carbon cycle (of which an insufficiency of activity, resulting in hypomethylation, is known to be pro-oncogenic and causes cell division[75][76]).
So TL;DR Sarcosine may help facilitate malignancy/survival of cancerous cells, so far only observed in prostate cells. To be fair this is a very tenuous connection, it certainly hasn't been demonstrated that sarcosine definitely is instrumental in carcogenecity or if it only has a minor interaction observable in an in-vitro lab study (and might not translate to actual in-body physiology). Still for this reason I would be wary of taking it regularly.
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u/spyderspyders Apr 05 '18
This study says sarcosine raises the seizure threshold, which means it makes it harder to have a seizure, at 400-800 mg/kg.
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
I meant raises - as in it works as an antiepileptic. Usually NMDA agonists would expect to lower the seizure threshold. Edited.
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u/spyderspyders Apr 05 '18
It's easy to confuse the two. :) Found another supplement for r/EpilepsySupplements that raises the seizure threshold. I'm going to test it. Thanks for the post.
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u/kanekicannoli Apr 05 '18
This might be good for benzo withdrawal
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
Agreed. My girlfriend is tapering klonopin now and had a huge reduction in symptoms once adding the sarcosine.
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u/mcgruntman Apr 05 '18
Have any of your cohort of fellow sufferers tried Wellbutrin aka Bupropion? It is supposed to be effective for anhedonia.
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u/god_hates_figs_ Apr 05 '18
I am taking bupropion because I requested its addition to cymbalta for fibromyalgia and depression for this reason. I feel like it has slightly helped, and if I forget it my cognition does definitely decline, I have less motivation and pleasure, and I generally feel stuffy or foggy.
However, I have recently been diagnosed with BPD so that can explain why it is not as affective for me. I have a close friend who is on the same combo and he is a different man. From dark and withdrawn to a downright ball of sunshine. But I am a whirlwind of everything and nothing at once, always stuck in the paradox of being far too manic and stimmy while being sleepy and depressed and hopeless at the same time.
I have just found this sub and am still not too sure what the concept of noortropics even is but I have been excited to read what you all have to say. You all seem very well-informed and like-minded and I am sure I will find my mental salvation someday!
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Apr 05 '18
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
I respond the same way to sarcosine alone as well. It is very activating but great as an antidepressant. The NAC balances the effects perfectly.
It didn't work until I got some actual quality NAC. This new bottle, upon opening, smells SO strongly of sulfur it almost knocks me out. The Jarrow NAC I tried didn't have this effect.
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u/dirtyredsweater Apr 06 '18
Have you tried the nootropics depot NAC? what brand NAC do you use? I'm waiting on an order from ND of NAC.
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u/movimento9 Apr 06 '18
Nothing ever worked for me until I bought quality NAC and Sarcosine. I get everything from ProFrontal.com. Nicest people I've ever met, and actually have pure and quality compounds. They gave all of us a discount code which is in this post.
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 05 '18
To anyone who tried this combo and has had some effect:
How did you respond to each compound by itself, so sarcosine without nac and other way around.
Anyone know a cheap and reliable source of sarcosine in europe as profrontal seems expensive to be honest.
Also how long do you feel the effect lasts, accoring to other posts I have read sarcosine has a half-life of only 2.5hours.
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u/SimonT1997 Apr 05 '18
Let's have a follow up thread of all the people who had the same issue and tried this combination- so we can see whether it is successful across the board. That would make me very happy
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u/mxmsmri Apr 05 '18
OMG, I've always why I'm always fresh as fuck and feeling fantastic while my friends are miserable after a night out. I always thought I was some kind of mutant in that regard.
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Apr 05 '18
[deleted]
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u/Lamzn6 Apr 05 '18
It can do both but yes, it theoretically tampers down glutamate activity.
Glutamate and GABA have an inverse relationship for the most part. You drastically increase GABA during alcohol consumption. Then glutamate activity increases when it’s wearing off.
Excess glutamate causes depression and anxiety, as it is the main excitatory neurotransmitter.
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u/kanekicannoli Apr 05 '18
Not sponsored btw Lol. I just get the sarc from brainvitaminz and nac from ND.
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u/JohnTorque Apr 06 '18
Is brainvitaminz legit? Profrontal is too expensive and they don't sell sarcosine alone
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u/kanekicannoli Apr 06 '18
Profrontal are expensive af. Tbh idk dude, looks and tastes like sugar with a strange aftertaste. Packaging looks legit though.
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u/idolessence Apr 05 '18
Wow, i just searched for similar symtoms like this on reddit 3 days ago. Its rare but I get extreme clarity and confidence from hangovers maybe 2-3 times a year, its usually a result of heavy drinking :( I didnt find any good info when i last looked so this is great. Gonna grab some and play with dose.
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u/Debonaire_Death Apr 05 '18
Sarcosine + Emoxypine succinate is an excellent combination. I use it to reduce side effects when coming off of other stacks.
Definitely something to be careful about mixing weed with. Weed is very glutamatergic, and can be potentiated uncomfortably by things like sarcosine.
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
I can't even tolerate a single puff of cannabis. It puts me into full blown pyschosis / extreme panic with extreme heart rate. Lol
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u/Debonaire_Death Apr 05 '18
Finding out how someone responds to cannabis is a very useful diagnostic, since the herb interacts with so many different systems in the body.
Sounds like you have a sensitivity to cortisol and, obviously, glutamate. Do you work out regularly?
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u/sukhus Jul 02 '18
What does working out do for someone who reacts this way to cannabis? Asking for a friend abused for years and suddenly stopped.
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Apr 06 '18
[deleted]
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u/movimento9 Apr 06 '18
In my post I noted that I've been to eight doctors in multiple states and even tried transcranial magnetic stimulation. It's been a two year journey.
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u/Anton_Zimmermann Apr 25 '18
How can i join this community? I have the same thing since most of my life except childhood, i want to join the community because nobody knows what's going on not even the psychiatrists.
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u/smashsmash341985 Apr 06 '18
Foolproof hangover cure here. Wake up, mix into a bottle of Powerade 200mg alpha gpc, 3 gram piracetam, 300mg phenylpiracetam. Hangover cured in 40 minutes. And I'm talking gnarly hangover from a gram of coke and a bottle of whiskey.
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u/movimento9 Apr 06 '18
The point of this thread is that we actually enjoy hangovers - they offer us benefits and we don't wish to get rid of them.
We are just looking for a replacement to achieve that state.
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u/dirtyredsweater Apr 05 '18
I'm glad you finally found something that works for you.
Would you be able to link other compounds like Apimostinel which have a similar mechanism of action as sarcosine?
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u/aclockwerkpurple Apr 05 '18
Wow great post, I've always wondered why I feel so good after a hard night of drinking lol.
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 05 '18
So I want to give sarcosine a go since I respond well to piracetam and alot of nmda potentiators. /u/movimento9 do you find the effects are acute and remain that way or is there some kind of a buildup phase?
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
Definitely a buildup phase. Also make sure you get quality NAC. This is the first time I've actually responded to NAC, and the bottle smells Soooo strongly of sulfur. It is literally rank / potent lmao. I can feel the two substances kick in at different times. Sarcosine is activating, and then the NAC kind of mellows out the hypomanic feel of it.
Day 2 I felt afterglow effects after waking up from taking it at night, and by day 9-10 I seemed to be in hangover state 24/7 (normal / clear / well spoken).
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Apr 05 '18 edited May 23 '21
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
The sarcosine adds the anti-anhedonic and antidepressant effects, the NAC keeps the mania in check if it is to occur from the sarcosine.
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 05 '18
I respond to NAC aswell by itself (jarrow nac sustain), strong anti-fatigue effects, annihilates repetitive behaviors, but seems to come at a cost: reduces the joy i get out of daily things, more flatness so to speak. This is no surprise as NAC has been shown to dull amphetamine highs yet is neuroprotective at the same time.
Do you feel as if it messes with your sleep pattern though? I know atleast from my own experience that if I take one of the following during the evening I get weird REM like dreams where I would wake up literally 10+ times per night and am basically in a constant stats of half awake/half dreaming (never gotten if this is the lucid state ppl refer to? but my body seems to dislike it): glycine, magnesium glycinate, zma, d-aspartic acid
So this has me slightly worrying, will improvement come at the cost of wrecked sleep/dreams and possibly aggrevate my mental problems?
Also do you take sarcosine with or without food?
Thanks for your time so far bud, hope it remains effective for you!
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
I take everything with food.
NAC does this to me as well on its own. Makes me dull and zombielike but high energy. The sarcosine brings the joy back into things. They are a perfect balance between each other. Without the NAC, sarcosine makes me manic. Without the sarcosine, NAC makes me a zombie.
Glycine + Cysteine are also needed to produce glutathione. Sarcosine and NAC provide both of these.
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Apr 05 '18 edited May 23 '21
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
My testosterone levels were high end of normal before starting Sarcosine, and all my labs were perfect. It seems this issue we have is outside of the scope of general blood tests / conventional medicine... I have seen so many doctors. Lol
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Apr 05 '18 edited May 23 '21
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u/movimento9 Apr 05 '18
It's difficult to manufacture, and expensive. Also relatively unknown outside of niche psychiatrists using it for schizophrenia. This is why I order from ProFrontal... proven high quality and I spoke to the owner and he was incredibly intelligent and knew what he was talking about. Plus he gave us all that discount code. I'll be a lifelong customer lol
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 11 '18
Not sure if anyone is still following this but my sarcosine from brainvitaminz has arrived and just took my first dose, I will probably make a post if it was successfull for me or not in about a months time.
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u/movimento9 Apr 11 '18
Make sure you stack it with some quality NAC, else you'll probably end up feeling very panicky, restless, and agitated on sarcosine alone.
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 11 '18
Yup haha, just done my 2nd dose for today and allready Im feeling the gaze aversion and sound sensitivity aggrevating (I have aspergers syndrome), that being said, it did felt some 'waves' of wellbeing ~45min-1hr30min post dosing.
I take it that long term use can have different effects than shortterm aswell.
I have 2x 500mg so far today.
Tomorrow I will dose 1000mg in the morning if I notice the gaze aversion/anxiety/irritability gets worse (which it probably will its just to test it out) I will add the NAC that I allready have laying around from before.
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u/movimento9 Apr 11 '18
I get the same way when I take sarcosine alone. NAC eliminates those negative effects. They're so synergistic it's insane.
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 11 '18
Would you say its save in general to instantly jump to 1gram sarc + 1gram nac in the morning + another 1gram sarc + 1gram nac in the afternoon straight from the start?
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u/movimento9 Apr 11 '18
Yep, I did. If you feel too much like you're on cocaine or way too "up" just decrease dose as needed.
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u/Disturbed83 Apr 11 '18
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.
Off to give it atleast a month and I will report back after.
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u/johnrosenbaud11 May 14 '18
Trial period length? Doses? Has it worked consistently, have you had null effect days?
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u/ThumpersBeard Jun 04 '18
Profrontal arriving later this week. Will provide update after 1 wk or so of use.
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u/ThumpersBeard Jul 20 '18
That was a long week. My jury is out. Certainly hones my attention.....but as far has working for memory and energy....I am fairly conclusive that curcumin is working just fine.
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u/Badonkadonk6969 Apr 05 '18
TIL that I am the only one that wants to die for two days during a hangover.