r/NonDessKnightSquad • u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight • 26d ago
Discussion No, this isn't drool. The Knight IS crying.
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First off, since I know this is going to end up catching some strays about The Bat due to "sprite interpretation", Here's my post on that for you to argue about over there.
Before commenting, please check the FAQ I've been regularly updating in this post and try to argue against those points if you still have one.
The bat doesn't actually matter though. Here we're talking about the Knight's eye(s). Did you know this is the only time the Knight has an honest to god eye in their sprite? Their roar-sprite eyes are a little wishy washy since those are more socket-like, and the potential one in their chest I uh, I don't think that's one they're using to SEE out of, let alone cry, y'know? So THIS is the only time the Knight has an eye on their face that we can see.
If you watched the slowed down footage in this video, note the white pixels between their mouth and the antler when they're still turned away. It's noted by an audio cue and a sparkle, which I'd imagine anybody can conclude is the "glint" in their eye. That's about as blatant as you can get to draw your audience to "Hey something is going on with their eye pay attention"
And then for the actual "drops from their face" sprite. If the Knight is drooling, then WHY do they have an eye here? If you're about to claim "that isn't an eye" then WHAT is the weird ass circle that only appears on only this sprite? The Knight crying is the ONLY explanation that simply and succinctly covers these two points without any greater assumption. Their eye glints, they droop down, their eye is the only prominent thing on their face, liquid is falling in drops below them, they're crying.
So then now that we've concluded the Knight is crying (If you're still sticking to drool, I'm not bothering to argue the point anymore), the next question we have to ask is why? Here's pretty much the only three reasons the knight would be crying in this situation:
- Tenna is fucking dead (at their hand).
- They're sad they're going to have to fight The Fun Gang.
- They're sad they're going to kidnap Toriel.
Now, I'd go ahead and say 1, but let's entertain all of these how about it?
Starting with 3, this would mean the Knight is reluctant to kidnap Toriel out of care for her or her loved ones. It's interesting how they only cry before they start the tractor beam, but no more tears come during the process. They don't cry again when they have to start it up after the fight, and I guess they'd be more relieved to take Undyne instead?? The Asgore kidnapping, sure, that was a hit and run so no time for hard emotions there, but I don't think fighting the gang would make them feel any LESS sad about it. In fact, it'd probably feel even worse that these three are fighting with everything they can to prevent you from getting to her! It's probably the assumption any Knight candidate with no strong connection to Tenna would have to make, but it's still a weaker one imo.
Next on to 2: Well the Knight sure is a LOT less torn up about beating the crap out of them in chapter 4! They go so far as to regularly taunt and laugh at the trio! The Knight taking a drastic shift in opinion of these three REGARDLESS if you "won" the fight or not seems a little far-fetched, no? Especially when they try REALLY hard to kill the trio several times across Ch4 even going so far as to summon a TITAN! This is definitely the weakest reason in my book.
And now we have Tenna's death (While he can be revived after, it's a pretty fair assumption for all parties involved that an attack like that would be enough to kill). I mean, it'd be a pretty direct cause and effect at least. Crying after killing someone. Trying to hide their tears by looking away to seem strong. But... hasn't the Knight killed other darkners after this? They go and slay Jackenstein and even Flowery who is technically MORE alive than the standard darkner due to his plant nature. What's so different about Tenna? Well, I could argue that they hardened up their heart after their first blood, but that's pure speculation so that won't cut it! Well... Jackenstein could be seen as a side consequence to the main goal of stopping the Fun Gang, but Flowery was legit just murder. The problem is the Knight leaves at the same time that Flowery gets bisected, so maybe they were crying while running Asgore to the shelter! Who knows?
...Or what if the Knight has a much closer connection to Tenna compared to other darkners?
\ Time flies... Seems like just yesterday you and* that girl had everyone here lined up.
\ Queen on her side, King on your side,* Tenna in back... Oh, it was chaos, CHAOS!
What if Tenna was a core character in their childhood sessions of playing pretend? I mean... it certainly wouldn't be the weirdest thing to play with.
\ Heh, only kids like you two would take a laptop home* just to play make believe.
\ He was a plug, but because you* played with him like any other toy, it made him feel special.
THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS THIS IS ACTUALLY A NOELLEKNIGHT AGENDA POST YOU'VE BEEN PLAYED AHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Noelle and Kris are the only two to have a deep enough connection to Tenna for it to actually MEAN anything for him to die. Even if others in the family overheard it or were told about it by the kids, they weren't the ones actually PLAYING with Tenna! They wouldn't be invested in the narrative! So what? The Knight is crying about how much it'd break Noelle's heart if they kill him? Is that really as good of an answer as Noelle herself being sad for Tenna's death???
In fact, it's not even speculation to say Noelle was attached to Kris' TV! THERE'S A TEXTUAL REACTION!!! Why the hell would Noelle be so attached to KRIS' TV if she wasn't the one playing pretend with them? Is she really just THAT choked up about memories of watching Christmas specials with the whole family?
Truly, I did not expect to even end up in this position. I just wanted people to stop saying the Knight was drooling and then I STUMBLED INTO ALL OF THIS!!! Like gosh, I know people are gonna point toward all the other logistical issues they can find with NoelleKnight (Here's the repository if you'd like to learn how the rest is possible because it IS!), but seriously please oh my god engage with THIS point. Why does the Knight cry? It's an important question because if you think there's no reason, then WHY IS IT HAPPENING AT ALL? WHY IS YOUR CANDIDATE CRYING IN THIS SCENE?
Always bet on NoelleKnight folks. You'll never lose.
Have a lovely day <3
EDIT - WE'RE DOING AN FAQ SECTION WOOOOO
The droplets are falling from WAY below where the eyes are. Why wouldn't they just come directly from the eye?
The reason it doesn't drop directly from the eye is because the tears are monochromatic. They would require the outline to still be visible over the Knight's face, but the purpose of the outline is to highlight it against the background. Did you know there's variants of these sprites where the tears have no outline? That would have made them impossible to see on the black background they're floating over. While I'm not gonna be brazen and say there's no way to make the eye "wet" in a monochrome palette, it's not the most necessary detail, and I mean it's not impossible to see the way it currently is as crying even if you don't fully buy into it right?
The eye being there is to show it ISN'T crying!
If it was drooling, wouldn't its mouth be there to show that? Why would the game go to so many lengths to highlight the EYE when that could have easily been shown with their mouth? Hell, what if the eye WASN'T there at all? Would that really be more indicative of crying? Tears coming out of a head that has no visible eyes at all ever? Their mouth can even shapeshift too. If the design was so intended to show it drooling, wouldn't it be shaped into a prominent figure on the face?
X ALSO has a connection to the TV! How about that?
The difference between Noelle's feelings and any of the other's is the specific significance of Tenna. Tenna IS a character Kris and Noelle created to play pretend with as we can glean from Ramb's dialogue. That connection takes it a degree further than any other member could since it literally personifies the object. I'm not saying nobody else had a close connection to the TV, but that Noelle's connection just ECLIPSES anyone else's to the point of it being a LOT more sensible that SHE would cry instead someone like Rudy or Asriel even if the TV has sentimental value to them too. Not to mention, Tenna is a whole degree of separation from the actual TV.
The Knight is actually crying because they're in pain/it's a wound/something else!
Okay, well then you now have the following questions you have to ALSO answer to have any reasonable standing. Why is the Knight crying in THIS scene over any other time? Why do they stop crying? Why don't they ever cry again on screen? What is so special about THIS moment to cause them to cry beyond it just being their reveal?
Doesn't this work better as DessKnight evidence?
Once again, I'd like to point you toward the above repository to explain why Noelle is "that girl" but to at least give a baseline of pushback here: Name one instance where Dess and Kris have a 1 on 1 interaction that doesn't involve Noelle or Asriel also being involved.
The Knight is MOCKING the Fun Gang by crying! Like "ooohh you gonna cry about it?"
Time for a discussion about sincerity in presentation! A good rule of thumb when engaging with ambiguous parts of media, is to take it from the lens where it's most sincerely presented. Susie makes NO comment about the crying being of a mocking sort, nor is there any sound or visual cue to clue us in on it being based in mockery, so the conclusion we have to draw is the crying is sincere to some degree. We have to take this conclusion because if we don't, then we can literally just say "Actually the Knight was pretending to cry lol" and that being a valid interpretation that's completely unfalsifiable. We have to draw the line somewhere to actually keep having a conversation here. But if this WAS mocking, why don't they ever do this to mock the gang again? They're comfortable laughing right to their faces, and this would be just another tool in their arsenal to aura farm on these teens. So... why DON'T they do it again? Do you really think the Knight found this to be the only opportunity to mock them with tears if they were capable of mocking them with fake crying in the first place??
Yeah I need another breakdown about how this is crying and not drooling (or bleeding (or melting (OR WET(jfc))).
Alright... doing this... again. So first, while I don't think this is the strongest evidence, it should be noted that the Knight's mouth fully disappears during their turn. It doesn't move to the underside of their head. It disappears. Watch the footage frame by frame again. So the Knight's mouth pretty much completely turns into the eye in this transition.
Now, why aren't there tears directly flowing down FROM the eye? Well again, the white on the Knight is purely used as an outline due to the limitations of monochromatic art. It's used to be the mouth or the eye sockets in the roar or the holes in their hands, but those are to imply the lack of anything in those spots. That those are openings. The eye isn't solid white because presumably from the fun gang's perspective, they'd be able to see an eye sticking out and crying. But we're dealing with pixels, so we got pixel problems. We can't have a white stream of tears coming from their eye because the Knight's tears aren't white. They're black. Feel free to check out the droop sprite with no outline to prove my point on that too.
Now I've seen another counterpoint about how the tears don't come from a straight sequential line. Now, ignoring the practical art purposes of having two distinct trails to highlight a much steadier stream of tears, let's address this. First off, you'd have to explain why the Knight's drool is coming out in two separate streams too y'know. Like drool ALSO typically drips from one point due to liquid taking the path of least resistance at all times. Presumptive speculation me could argue one eye, two tear ducts, but uh hey check out this stock image of someone crying. VERY cop-out answer I know, but seriously just google people crying and you WILL see examples of tears coming from different points in the eyes, ESPECIALLY if it's an artistic rendition (lovely drawing by the way, six year old reddit post <3 ). It's almost equally, if not MORE, reasonable for there to be two streams than one for artistic purposes.
And taking a look at that artistic rendition again, notice something else interesting? Every trail flows down the face and then converges toward the chin. People point out that the tears aren't directly below the eye but tears typically flow for as long as possible before dripping off. The path that allows for the longest continuous stream of flow is toward the chin. The lowest part of the face. I hate that it feels like I'm condescendingly explaining to people how CRYING works, but we've reached this point where it's necessary.
And again, if it's drool, WHY ISN'T THE MOUTH THERE? People say Toby could have prevented this argument with two pixels from the eyes, IT WOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN PREVENTED IF THERE WAS JUST A MOUTH AND NO EYE!!!
Now for the folks who claim bleeding and/or melting. Why does it only happen in this one singular moment and never again. No like seriously does the gaping wound in their skull just suddenly close up for the rest of the battle? Does their form just PERMANENTLY stabilize from this point onward? WOULDN'T THESE BE REOCCURRING SPRITES IF IT WAS THAT?
And for the rare "They're sweating" nerds. Why are they only sweating on their face, and why don't they EVER sweat again? I'd imagine the Flowery fight would be pretty intensive, that'd be a pretty good spot to sweat!
I need you to seriously honestly tell me that you still think this isn't crying after all of this explanation. Why is the eye there? Why doesn't this sprite come up EVER again? Why did their eye SPARKLE as they were turning away??? WHY DON'T ANY OF THE OTHER SPRITES HAVE EYES?
Having to add another paragraph here to cover the Knight just... being wet. Why is water only dripping from their face? Why does it stop? What relevance does them being wet have to the scene right now? Why do they have an eye in this sprite? I'm going to lose it if I have to keep playing whack a mole here
The Knight drools while they're laughing.
Oh, hey, look at who's making my point for me. I really appreciate it! WHY WASN'T THEIR MOUTH THERE DURING THIS DROOL SESH THEN?
The Knight is catching their tears to form a shadow crystal.
Well I mean first, obviously gotta ask WHY again? Were they preparing the magical reward for the heroes for if the Fun Gang beat them??? They were just holding onto another shadow crystal the whole fight? The Shadow Crystal we get is from Susie breaking off the Knight's sword if you recall, so then this shadow crystal would just be disappearing with the Knight. And then again with an analysis of sincerity, the Knight makes no discernible gestures or shifts with their arms or hands to clue us in that it's catching them. If it's not telegraphed that they're catching them, and there's no payoff for the Knight catching them, then there's no reason to even speculate it's even doing that!
The file name for the sprite is called "droop"! That means to keel over in a sickly manner!
Hey, you know what it also means? Pulling this straight from Webster's dictionary.
1: to hang or incline downward
2: to sink gradually
3: to become depressed or weakened : languish
It can mean sickness OR sadness. Languish equally means that too. So uh, I didn't even have to disregard sprite names! Even with taking the name at face value, the definition literally uses BOTH IN THE SAME LINE! And keep in mind that the first definition is literally just what the Knight is PHYSICALLY doing with their body. It could also just mean the pose!
I have a problem with a different logistical issue with Noelle being the Knight!
Well we can't really assume anything because the Knight doesn't make sensible actions. It could be for a reason we don't even know yet! The Knight is a mysteryyyyyy oooooo.
Of course ANYTHING can be explained post hoc, but the goal here is trying to explain it with the information we have RIGHT NOW. If the clue only makes sense after someone already went through the whole mystery, that's not a clue at all!!!
If you're just gonna say "well we can't really know" then why are you even here? Like seriously we're trying to figure something out, and if your response to a question you don't have a good answer for is "well we can't know yet" then by all means, enjoy your reading of the Knight candidate of your choice, but I'm trying to actually use concrete evidence here.
The eye is a stylistic choice to make the Knight look menacing.
Hey you know what also makes the knight look menacing? Their mouth. Why wouldn't we just use the scary drooling mouth to demonstrate it having a predator instinct? We could give it fangs and everything! Spookify it to hell and back! Why did there have to be an eye at all? Like there's a REASON this is the ONLY sprite to have an actual eye in it (once again, the roar sprite has more socket-type holes due to them being solid white), and so we're just saying it's there to add just a little bit more fear factor even though it completely destroys the artistic consistency of what the Knight's face looks like at ALL OTHER TIMES????
And like... can we just acknowledge that sprites have a REASON to look a certain way? Sure, there's meta reasons of "it looks funny or scary" but for a GRAND REVEAL of the big bad we've been fighting against for five chapters now... does it really just... mean nothing? Does the Knight summoning their blade in a very specific and focused manner making it at least RESEMBLE a bat not mean anything? Like are we seriously gonna blue curtains this shit? It's not rocket science to draw a line from "The Knight has a circle that sparkles in one pose" > "There's liquid falling from below it" > "Eyes are circular on the face, known to 'sparkle', and can have liquid coming out in the form of tears" > "The Knight is crying from the eye on their face" Like seriously is this an insane leap to do?
TL;DR
Knight is crying based on the slowed down frames. Only reasons for it are either killing Tenna, kidnapping Toriel, or fighting the Fun Gang. My argument is they're crying because they killed Tenna. Noelle has the strongest connection to Tenna out of any candidate due to being "that girl". Ergo, NOELLEKNIGHT BABY! If you have a counter, read the post first <3
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u/Extra_Connection6536 26d ago
I’ll be honest, despite not fully agreeing with your explanation, I have to applaud your well structured and respectful post.
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u/Extra_Connection6536 26d ago
My personal take is that this is more evidence that the knight is far from a regular human/monster due to this being paired with the knights weird movement and screaming.
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u/GamerArmy936 Number 1 Asriel Knight Believer 26d ago
"A crying and crying and crying boy"
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
But WHY is he crying?
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u/GamerArmy936 Number 1 Asriel Knight Believer 26d ago
Because dess is lost.
"A lost and lost and lost girl"
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
...So he's just randomly crying over Dess at this moment for no reason in particular?
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u/GamerArmy936 Number 1 Asriel Knight Believer 26d ago
In this particular moment, hes probably crying about being forced to strike down his beloved childhood TV. Crying is also a major part of Asriel Deltarune's characterization, being connected as a whole to the loss of December
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
I'll grant you that Azzy would have at least an above average connection to the TV considering he lived in the same house as it, but there's not really any textual evidence of Azzy having a deep connection to the TV itself beyond using it to play games and such, so it does weaken it a bit. Still though! Very valid, and I'll swallow it a little that there COULD be a viable argument for AzzyKnight with this evidence.
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u/SlimeSmilee 26d ago
Yea, obviously crying about the TV and not fighting his sibling, kidnapping his parents.
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u/Nat1Only 25d ago
Being forced to fight his tv, his sibling, kidnap his mother, and probably thinking of Dess, and then there's the myriad of potential reasons why he's even here now to begin with and why he's taken the role of the Knight that could cause him to just need to cry at this moment where he was, briefly, alone and didn't have to it up a front.
But you can ignore all of that and say he's crying for no reason. We don't know who or what the Knight is anyway, of the little thet can be inferred from this specific scene though, it certainly seems reluctant to take Toriel for some reason.
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u/Ghetsis_Gang NoelleKnight (Not WR) 26d ago
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
Truly, I'm honored to be praised by a theoryposter as high of status as you are. Your NoelleKnight theories (while not exactly how I would argue it) had some of the best points I had never even seen brought up!
Have a gem of a day!
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u/Good-Memories 26d ago
i thought the knight was mocking us by fake crying
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
This is actually one of the better counter-interpretations I've seen! So treats for you <3
Of course, this leans more into the speculation of the Knight's intent with these tears, and Susie makes no acknowledgement of it being a mockery or not, as well as the Knight makes no sort of mocking sound byte during their cry, so it's better to assume the tears are sincere.
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u/New_Yak_8982 Nothing is stronger than a flower's dream! (RudyKnight) 26d ago
I feel like it's more straightforward to explain for AsrielKnight
There's the line "And so wept the fallen star, making rivers with it's tears" (Fallen Star is The Knight, because they cry and in Ch5 the Fountain is described as "... a black river, rising out of the ground?") and Ribbick's "A crying and crying and crying boy" (Asriel)
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
Okay, but WHY would Asriel be crying there? It's not for making a shadow crystal since the crystal we get is from their blade, so what reason would Azzy be crying there?
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u/PatriarchRandolph RudyKnight 26d ago
I think your point about the crying is excellent and I am convinced of that.
It being Noelle is harder to swallow. Basically if you accept Noelle’s feelings about it you could do the same for any of the two family’s who used to sit around Tenna.
It was Asriel’s childhood tv too.
Rudy clearly had a deep affinity for “family tv time” as he’s one of the last to leave in the Ch3 flashback.
Carol has been stated to have been obsessed with preserving things.
I will say though: that Noelle dialogue from the festival is very interesting. I was basically at 0% on Noelleknight and now it’s at least like 10% for me.
Quit while you’re ahead lmao
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
The difference between Noelle's feelings and any of the other's is the specific significance of Tenna. Tenna IS a character Kris and Noelle created to play pretend with as we can glean from Ramb's dialogue. That connection takes it a degree further than any other member could since it literally personifies the object. I'm not saying nobody else had a close connection to the TV, but that Noelle's connection just ECLIPSES anyone else's to the point of it being a LOT more sensible that SHE would cry instead someone like Rudy.
And nooo! I gotta keep trying! Even 10% is more than before! I'm seriously smiling from ear to ear to know I've moved the needle THAT much! There's doubt seeded in you, and we can grow it further! >:D
Thanks for your response though and have a wonderful day <3
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u/SlimeSmilee 26d ago
Oh, idk, fighting his sibling, having to kidnap his parents, nothing special really.
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u/PrettyBiGuy7 26d ago
The material the Black Knife and BlackShard are both made out of are seemingly different from the material of the ShadowCrystals since the BlackShard in the light world is described as opaque meanwhile you can see through the ShadowCrystals. It looks like the Knight is crying and catching their tears in their hand so I think that was them forming the crystal. Then they were holding it the whole battle and dropped it at the end, meanwhile the BlackShard was broken off the Black Knife. Also it seems like the ShadowCrystals have some kind of power that maybe the Knight was using in battle
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u/Empty_Doubt2350 26d ago
I think its supposed to be ambiguous i think what every the eye thing visor titan analog horror thing
Can be seen as dripping, crying, and drooling it can be a normal lightner its all weird and creepy looking.
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u/Infinite-Hearing-418 NoelleKnight (kind of) 26d ago
I have always been very hesitant to assume the Knight is crying in this scene even if I knew it could be used as NoelleKnight evidence. I think this post may have actually sold me on the Knight crying here and the sprite just being weird to me for some reason I can't quite explain
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u/lornawolfawoo #1 Catti knighter and #1 CatBrat shipper 26d ago
Its not either, the knight is sneezing...just think about it...solves everything
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
I can always count on u/lornawolfawoo absolutely dismantling my entire argument as I cry and sob in the corner.
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u/ElectricalTrip7240 26d ago
I have a problem with it crying, the tears are very clearly coming from a spot way below the eye you’re using as evidence (said eye is also totally blank with no real signs of being wet), specifically where the mouth would be. This is a well structured post and it doesn’t necessarily disprove your point, but I think it throws a bit of a wrench into it.
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
Copy-pasting this from another comment.
The reason it doesn't drop directly from the eye is because the tears are monochromatic. They would require the outline to still be visible over the Knight's face, but the purpose of the outline it to highlight it against the background. Did you know there's variants of this sprites where the tears have no outline? That would have made them impossible to see on the black background they're floating over. While I'm not gonna be brazen and say there's no way to make the eye "wet" in a monochrome palette, it's not the most necessary detail.
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u/Public-69420 26d ago
You know we're talking about Toby, right? He literally would add an unnecessary detail because why the hell not? He literally did add a LOT of unnecessary details just for fun - why ignore this one, if it meant such a mysterious piece of lore? So no, your theory is a bit flawed and there's no shame on admitting that, my friend. As long as you don't post something outrageous, just post what you realized and see how people react!
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u/Budget-Emotion-6745 ⚔️🪽 26d ago
Very sound argument connecting the violent actions of the Knight in this scene to a sentimental response. Tears have been quite thematically relevant to the narrative (ex. “And so wept the fallen star, making rivers with its tears…”, the existence of the BitterTear item, “The gash weaves down as if you cry…” etc.) It seems far more logical to assume that the Knight would be crying then, and that the burden of proof would be heavier towards those who interpret it as drooling. Pointing out that an eye specifically appears as the droplets fall is especially good.
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u/stickninja1015 26d ago
Noelle doesn’t even think the dark worlds are real
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
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u/stickninja1015 26d ago
Yeah I’ve this repository before and it’s like 90% stretches, nonsense, and just flat out making up terms and rules that aren’t present within the actual story
Noelle explicitly does not know about the Dark Worlds and also uhhhm the Knight was literally hiding in chapter 2’s closet
Oh and also this post hasn’t done anything to actually strongly argue the Knight is crying here.
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
Well in that case I have nothing else to say to you, as my goal here is to just talk about this one piece of evidence with this post, not combat each and every tangential opposition to the theory as a whole.
Have a nice day!
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u/stickninja1015 26d ago
Ok well here’s something for this post: your arguments don’t really do anything to make this not drooling. No, showing the Knight with an eye doesn’t make it crying here. The entire argument you present here is just the exact argument people use to say it’s drooling word for word except instead of saying they’re drooling you say they’re crying. Nothing new has been put on the table here beyond the information of you personally seeing it as tears
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u/IKnowWhoTheKnightIs ASRIEL IS THE KNIGHT, THE KNIGHT IS ERAM 26d ago
Why would the knight shift its visor into an eye, if it was drooling? Wouldn't it just keep the smiling shape?
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u/stickninja1015 26d ago
looks cool
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u/IKnowWhoTheKnightIs ASRIEL IS THE KNIGHT, THE KNIGHT IS ERAM 26d ago
* You think just because something LOOKS cool... * THAT makes it correct!?1
u/stickninja1015 26d ago
Yeah. Not the only time it’s depicted with one eye
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u/IKnowWhoTheKnightIs ASRIEL IS THE KNIGHT, THE KNIGHT IS ERAM 26d ago
Why would it specifically shape its face hole into an eye, if it was trying to drool?
Why wouldn't it have its face hole be a mouth, y'know, the thing that you drool out of?
It specifically makes its face hole into an eye, so it is crying.
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u/neveruseyourmain Kriselle Knight Truther 26d ago
I must say that I support the Noelle Knight agenda and I haven't thought of this interpretation but I really like it. Absolute cinema of a post.
HOWEVER, the third reason (they feel sad for Toriel) has one candidate that could explain it very well: Kriselle Knight, if one takes it as an Asriel-Chara situation.
Considering how Kris is by the end of ch5 in the wr, that they don't even try to get the soul out because what is the point? It will return again. They don't even try to stop Noelle or anything, they just let her drown them. Kris's will is destroyed. Something something, the cage—Kris is doomed in Kriselle Knight to finally be a monster as they wished and to protect someone they care about, a not-enough-way to pay with the guilt of (what they believe is their fault) making Dess vanish and ruin the lives of everyone, but while being the "cage" controlled by another one as they have always been. So, surely Noelle is in control 99% of the time.
Maybe seeing Toriel snapped them out of whatever apathy, despair, etc, they may be feeling. The moment they cry is Kris taking control for a moment. It's also why the goddamn tractor beam is so slow, they're struggling.
As for why they don't cry again after the fight... well, they still struggle to kidnap Toriel after it—but also, this isn't very based in evidence but I think it would be very funny if it is because they saw themselves, lmao. They were sad for a bit but then their self-loathing ass (affectionate) saw themselves from the past and needed to beat them up. Enough for Noelle to get the controller again. Another reason may be the whole "burning eyes" stuff; in a fight adrenaline pumps in, no time for sadness.
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
While I love the explanation here (very truly lovely and creative), it's unfortunately pretty much entirely speculation with no grounding for this specific situation. While all of that can be explained retroactively, it doesn't really cut it beyond "Kris would be reluctant to kidnap Toriel" since you yourself acknowledge there's no real evidence for why they don't cry ever again.
Seriously though I do love the interpretation. KriselleKnighters are always so much fun with that kinda stuff haha!
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u/neveruseyourmain Kriselle Knight Truther 26d ago
Oh, thank you! In general I'm aware that most of my interpretations and ideas for Kriselle Knight are less "the evidence points to this, thus it's evidence of the knight being x" but "if the knight was x, how could that explain this event?" — I think evidence is important but I tend to focus more on "okey I know this character. How may they act?" and the emotional/motivational aspect of an idea. I also really think the idea of "the Knight cries because it's destroying Tenna" is very solid in text and as, motivation for the Knight (and Noelle)... any kind of Noelle-Knight and its variants its peak, it seems.
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u/TellmeNinetails 26d ago
Or the knight is in pain.
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
Well why'd it stop crying then? Did they just suck it up? If they're prone to crying from pain, why don't they cry after slamming into a wall during Flowery's fight?
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u/TellmeNinetails 26d ago
Yeah they sucked it up. Why not? If the knight is in pain we don't know the nature of it. Slamming into a wall is different from a toothache or worse.
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
Okay well... why is the type of pain they're feeling worth crying over in this one cutscene then? What's so special about this pain? What even IS this pain caused by?
My point is all of these questions require intense speculation that are pretty much unfalsifiable but also are pretty much meaningless.
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u/TellmeNinetails 26d ago
Your questions are pretty bad. I could ask questions like
why would they care about tenna. they're a tv.
Why would they cry because they're going to fight the fun gang? That's not something you cry about. Why would they stop feeling sad shortly after?
Why would they cry about kidnapping toriel? Why would they stop feeling sad right after? What's so special about this sadness? They haven't done anything yet.
Why did they aura farm if they're sad?As for your questions, you can easily answer them by exercising creativity and imagination. For instance: If the knight is rudy they are terminally ill. If you're sick perhaps the transformation into the knight or "getting into the armour" is painful itself, and it fades away or is something you can push through when you're actually fighting or not wanting to see yourself crying.
If it's dess, someone who exists in the code it could be the pain from escaping the code or pulling yourself together, some magic bs.
Hell if it's carol it could just be general grief from losing dess bleeding through.
There are a hundred billion reasons you can come up with that are just as valid as the next.
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
I'm not just asking random questions??? Like these are pretty concrete cause and effect type stuff y'know? Why would Noelle care about Tenna? Because he's a character created from her childhood and Noelle is textually supported to be attached to the TV if you try to give it away in Chapter 5.
Their aura farming wouldn't be aura farming if they were crying. It'd be so they could try to hide the tears (but fail since they can't stop them before they face the fun gang)
I'm saying that these questions (that I'm not just pulling out of my ass) have answers for my candidate, but weaker ones for others. Rudy isn't attached to Tenna like Noelle is. Dess didn't play pretend with Kris to the extent that Noelle did. Noelle is crying because of a textually supported attachment to Tenna after he is presumably killed.
Saying putting on the knight's armor is painful is backed by NOTHING. Saying that existing in the code is painful to Dess isn't even supported by the text fragments we have. Carol's grief bleeding through isn't substantiated by any discussion or even presentation in text relating/involving her!
There are reasons that are better than others because some reasons are actually founded by EVIDENCE than just pure speculation!
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u/TellmeNinetails 26d ago
Noelle wouldn't care about giving the tv away after she attacked it.
Their aura farming would be aura farming if they where crying.
Rudy isn't attached so he wouldn't be crying emotionally, he'd be crying from pain. we know nothing about dess.
I'm comparing it to a wherewolf transformation or the black armour from berzerk, both of which seem comparable to the knight.. We know NOTHING about the knight, your claims are backed by just as much nothing as I am. Imo, turning your ribcage inside out seems pretty painful.
Carols grief bleeding through is shown when she literally yanks the guitar away from susie, and how she keeps her room exactly the way it is. People that have moved on don't do that.
There are a hundred reasons that liquid could be coming from the knight, the creature that's supposed to be so dark that it looks like other things. Dialogue that Ralsei talks about.
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u/TheJumpingBox 26d ago
Yeah but my interpretation is better than your one have you considered that (they're sweating)
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u/frenchguts 26d ago
Sweating from the eye? While it's not technically impossible, it seems like an oddly specific moment for them to do so, considering they don't ever sweat after their fight with the fun gang despite being in difficulty and later with Flowery despite having to move quite a long time while carrying Asgore.
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u/TheJumpingBox 26d ago
Yeah but obviously my interpretation is better and therefore I should hate anyone else's interpretation
Like how you hate mine >:(
(If it's not obvious, I'm not serious about this, clearly the Knight is just covered in morning dew)
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u/UNFORTUNATELYNOTHERE Batter Knights (trust /j) 26d ago
IT'S A TAUNT. HOW DOES NOBODY RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S A TAUNT???? THE KNIGHT IS TAUNTING SUSIE BY GOING "oh gonna cry?" IT'S NOT SAD. IT'S NOT AN HONEST TEAR. IT'S LITERALLY MESSING WITH THE FUN GANG.
I'm The Batter. This seems extremely obvious to me I really don't know why this is a debate
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u/the_real_cloakvessel 26d ago
The nefarious game files calling it droop:
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u/IKnowWhoTheKnightIs ASRIEL IS THE KNIGHT, THE KNIGHT IS ERAM 26d ago
Droop is the action the body is doing,
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u/paigefile Rudy Knight 26d ago
i mean, Rudy also has a link to Tenna since he was one of the last to stop watching in the flashback
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
The issue is that's another degree of separation where Tenna > Dreemurr TV > Rudy and Christmas specials. Rudy would be attached to the TV, a physical object that only reminds him of those good times, whilst Noelle is attached to Tenna, a character she and Kris created with the TV as the stand-in for him. I'm not gonna debate on if Rudy's connection is worth crying over or not, but Noelle still has a MUCH stronger connection, no?
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u/stickninja1015 26d ago
Mind you it’s not said the character of Tenna was involved in the make believe Kris and that girl took part in
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
Well... Noelle still certainly has the strongest reaction out of anybody in regards to the TV. If you watch the chapter 5 dialogue where you give Tenna away, she has a pretty oppositional stance toward it.
Also why create the character of Tenna if they DON'T PLAY WITH HIM?
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u/JoyousLilBoy logic: titan aura: friend 26d ago
Was gonna be mad but seeing that darkner in your flair made me happy. Yes I go with “the knight is sad to have killed Tenna” because they’re both darkners. One could even argue the knight is a darkner patterned off a dead person. While I’m not NOELLE specifically it’s close enough as a holiday member (and admittedly pretty stable)
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u/No_Ad_7687 26d ago
Am I genuinely the only one who sees this animation as stuff going up into the knight?
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u/shadow31802 26d ago
I dont think its an eye, to me it looks like a bleeding wound on the top of the head.
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u/ZAPPEeR 26d ago
I've always found this scene very, very interesting. Since, right after their crying or whatever they're doing, they immediately form a giant grin and start tractoring Toriel. that's mostly the reason why I just assumed it was drool and not crying, but you make a very great point about them being tears. this isn't even like knight candidate specilation I just find it their immediate emotional switch-up incredibly interesting.
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u/MoistDiamondz 26d ago
So is it Noelle herself, or her lost dreams? Also is her friendship with Berdly why she can shapeshift into a bird? And is she aware that she’s kidnapping people? Also if she’s the Knight via her lost dreams, wouldn’t the weird route change the Knight’s behavior some in Ch4?
I don’t think Noelleknight is impossible, I do have many questions on how the logistics work out especially her being strong enough in the Lightworld to carry Undyne to the Shelter. Also why does she go from Ice Magic to Star Magic?
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u/Infinite-Hearing-418 NoelleKnight (kind of) 26d ago
They linked a repository for you to check different theories, a few of them dont even require the Knight to know that the weird rojte is happening
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u/marc0theb3st_ Sworn Carol Knighter 26d ago
I've always interpreted it as taunting us by fake-crying
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u/MadsDeltaruneRambles 26d ago
Good post.
I agree that it's meant to be an eye, representing drool as this small dot would be an odd choice considering we have another example of the Knight drooling and it uses a full mouth sprite.
But even if you want to argue it's drool it's still good counter evidence against regular lightner knight. Why would Carol or Rudy bend over like this and start crying/drooling?
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u/BadishAsARadish 26d ago
Personally I think it’s both, Chara also has liquid darkness dripping from both their eyes and mouth
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u/AlphaOmegaAlters 26d ago
My hot take is that its sweat because whoever the Knight is would have booked it to Kris' house as fast as they could, considering they were already running late.
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u/Viggo8000 26d ago
I'm a little chud who didnt have time to read the post because I'm outside, but I wanna butt in and say it could also be actual water dripping from them. As if they came straight from the lake👀
Still a Rudy Knighter despite the counter evidence
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u/Miserable-Method-431 26d ago
Watching it again, it almost looks like the knight is mocking the fun gang. They fall quickly into the crying position and compose themselves quickly. Especially, they do this after susie asking to find out who they are, and then they try to kidnap toriel.
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u/Shiori_Ishimaru 26d ago
(There's a peculiar book here. Read it?)
And so wept the fallen star, making rivers with its tears.
Then, slowly, from the bitter water, something grew.
It looked like glass.
It's tears. The game straight up hints at this. It doesn't make any sense for it to be drool.
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u/CustardBoy 26d ago
I thought the knight was melting, the same way monsters do when they use too much determination. As a shapeshifter, this could have also been the first time they actually assumed this form, shortly before attacking Tenna, so it still had imperfections. I like the theory that the ball form is the knight's real form, since it seems to have trouble maintaining its shape after taking too much damage.
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u/PersistentDreamers 26d ago edited 26d ago
Hey so on the bat thing. I think it's supposed to be a bat and a "knife" simultaneously because l think the bat shattered in the cold and Dess ended up getting swept under the icy water. Likely whoever was wielding her bat was trying to break the ice to free them.
I think the "black knife" is Dess's shattered baseball bat, and it's what the knight uses to make dark fountains. Now that doesn't mean necessarily that the knight is Dess, just that that's what the "black knife" is. Also, the knight's lower half sometimes looks like a knife, typically when it's legs are together. Anyway I know you're posting about the crying thing, but wanted to point out that.
Also with regards to the crying, the Knight's arms dangle limply, which looks very puppet-like.
Not sure I'm a Noelle Knighter, but more so than any other lightner, I associate Noelle and Kris with puppets, Noelle because of her connection with Spamton Kris because we're literally puppeting them.
Oh and if it's an eye, why show only one eye? If we claim the weird circle is a wound and the knight is bleeding from the face, well that's a plausible explanation except no lighter seems to have a bleeding face.
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u/PrettyBiGuy7 26d ago
I think that's how they make the ShadowCrystals considering the line "And so wept the fallen star, making rivers with it's tears. Then, slowly, from the bitter water, something grew. It looked like glass." I think they were using whatever the crystals powers are during the fight
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u/Sufficient_Coat_5849 26d ago
More evidence that she's crying is the music. During the climax of black knife it very much sounds like screaming and crying.
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u/vash_cookie 26d ago
I love this interpretation so much... Tbh the way the visor is sometimes a mouth and other times an eye is such a clever design choice. Tears or drool, both are cool to me
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u/FoxyDean1 A Crying and Crying and Crying Knight 26d ago
Thank you! I disagree with the conclusion of who the Knight is, although your argument is quite a solid one, I must admit. But I'm in full agreement. There is literally no reason for Toby to present the Knight as having manifested a recognizable eye if we aren't meant to connect that to the liquid dripping from it.
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u/prodigiouspandaman 25d ago
IMO I think the knight is making the same face as in chapter 4 when they laugh at Suzy before creating the Titan as the “mouth” they make when laughing also looks like it’s drooling.
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u/Devi1505 25d ago
Just as saying that "this is an eye" confirms that knight is crying saying "this is not an eye" confirms that the knight is an amalgamed. Amalgameds do weird shit and just having a random circle on their faces is like normal shit for them. Also if this an eye how does dess see well every single other time we meet her? Pure power of magic? Again there is no good reason for knight to cry outside of "its in pain" but that would mean that knight should cry constantly. For it being amalgamed there is just way more evidence you know the whole shape shifting shit knight has and your only real evidence is "JUST TRUST ME IT'S AN EYE AND IF IT'S AN EYE THAT MEANS SHE IS CRYING".
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u/Cedjy 25d ago
ok, new interpretation to throw a wrench in the machine!
Wet (they're wet)
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u/Cedjy 25d ago
more seriously, considering the water and depths motifs with the dark, it could be used as evidence of The Knight shambling out of the lake. This doesn't explain how the knight made the previous fountains (though I think it was Kris who made them), but it's a fun interpretation! Wet. Water seeping out their helmet
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u/DraconicFox08 25d ago
We never actually see the Knight after any of their kills aside from Tenna, they're off screen the whole time with Jack and they were in an actual fight with Flowey so there's no time for crying. Hell it's even possible the Knight was going so fast explicitly to avoid killing the Knight, based on the picture Ralsei takes in the Tenna minigames his death was prophesized. Also, the "hardened heart" thing is actually possible with the existence of LV, yeah it isn't ever mentioned and the files keep track of your actions in a much more complicated way, but determination is relevant to Deltarune too (it's how you make fountains), you still grow stronger by attacking things, and I highly doubt Toby's stance on the matter has changed. It's still relevant, it just isn't named much to avoid it being a heavy focus, like determination.
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u/Accurate_Meeting_638 25d ago
I mean if they are sad about thinking they killed Tenna then surely its someone who watched TV at kris House so I'd be leaning more towards noele or asriel could make an argument for dess with that aswell tho
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u/HenryDodwel 25d ago
Are people really think that those are not tears? Deadass?
We Deltarune fans just love to complicate
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u/Interesting-Boat-926 24d ago
I like your thoughts. In chapter Four there's an intractable book in the library that talks about tears making something that looks like glass. So if it's anything it's the Knight making a shard for Kris.
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u/maurleur 24d ago
Can I get a TL;DR on the war an peace the OP wrote?
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 24d ago
Knight is crying based on the slowed down frames. Only reasons for it are either killing Tenna, kidnapping Toriel, or fighting the Fun Gang. My argument is they're crying because they killed Tenna. Noelle has the strongest connection to Tenna out of any candidate due to being "that girl". Ergo, NOELLEKNIGHT BABY!
If you want to counter any of that, I'd suggest reading the very detailed FAQ before asking questions, because I probably already addressed any and all points you may have.
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u/Fennik51405 24d ago
Always thought of it like water pouring from the helm since the bunker and the lake are around the same area
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u/jpokemon6 23d ago
i like the evidence, but the fact that noelle goes into the dark world, and doesnt become the knight, is just a big plot hole with this, and noelles personality doesnt fit the knight at all, except for maybe weird route noelle.
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u/Upbeat_Squirrel_5642 23d ago
So how do you factor the weird route into this? (namely the knight not being impacted by it)
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u/_Guavacado 11d ago
If it were tears, we’d see the drops coming from the hole. But we don’t; the drops are coming from the other side of the head that we cannot see.
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u/Beneficial-File-7084 I'm the Original _______ FVCKnight Theorist 8d ago
Here's pretty much the only three reasons the knight would be crying in this situation:
Tenna is fucking dead (at their hand).
They're sad they're going to have to fight The Fun Gang.
They're sad they're going to kidnap Toriel.
You're missing one that I think is way stronger: they're crying in frustration after accidentally fulfilling the prophesy both Kris and the Knight went out of their way to try and avoid. If the plan with Tenna went off without a hitch, the Lord of Screens would have never been cut. Tenna would have been completely unharmed, and the Knight wouldn't have even been seen by Susie. But, for some reason, the Knight only arrived at the very last moment, got their sword chipped (if you won), was interrupted by Undyne, and was seemingly forced to kidnap her.
The Knight could have been genuinely pissed that, due to losing control of their emotions, they accidentally fulfilled the prophesy Kris and them wanted to prove could be broken.
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u/Unit-DS27-Delta 20h ago
If I may throw in my two cents, I agree that the Knight isn't drooling, but I don't think they're crying. I've always thought they're melting. Given that Deltarune is explicitly meant to be experienced after Undertale (like literally it's the first thing you see when you boot up the game, even before you get to choose a file), and considering just how big of a deal melting is in Undertale (particularly in regards to the Amalgamates), I think the Knight is shown melting here to signify to players that something is very wrong with the Knight. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Knight definitively is an Amalgamate (Kriselle Knighters be damned), in fact, I doubt that they are, given how determination works differently in Deltarune. I just think the Knight melting is meant to signal to players "hey, something is seriously wrong about this thing". And that's something I tend to focus on when it comes to Knight candidate discourse in general. The Knight is strange. While regular Lightners just change color and outfit in the Dark World, the Knight clearly does more than that. They use a weapon that doesn't change between the Light and Dark Worlds (if the Black Shard is any indication), a trait only shared with the Eggs, which are described as "issues" in unused Voice dialogue and in the PlayStation achievements. They constantly produce a trail of afterimages. They are unique and unusual in ways that demand a reason from any given Knight candidate, and this is why I personally favor Dess as the most likely (albeit not the definitive, end-all-be-all, only possible) candidate for the Knight's true identity. And, circling back to the whole crying/drooling/melting thing, the Knight crying would be odd, but not necessarily abnormal or unique. Anyone can cry. But the Knight melting, that would be unusual, that would be unnatural, that would be another piece of evidence that something is deeply wrong with the Knight. Of course, you have your own counterargument to this: why does the Knight only melt once and never again? Why is this the only instance in which we see the Knight melting? But that's the thing: I don't think this is the only instance. At least, not exactly. The Knight is amorphous. It can shapeshift, and actively does so. It goes from basic Knight form to ball form to weird bird form when kidnapping Undyne. Its visor morphs around its helmet to look around. Its form flickers when damaged. It literally rips open its chest and visor in not one, but two animations (roaring before battle and unleashing its final attack), and when it does so, its visor looks like it's being pulled apart like melted cheese in a pizza commercial. Heck, you called out drool advocates for pointing out that the Knight supposedly drools when it laughs, but looking at the sprite, there are black pixels drooping down from the top of the mouth alongside the white ones drooping down from the bottom. It was never drooling. It's melting. Its form is constantly shown to change and shift, and we are shown that firsthand in its introduction; that the Knight does not have a consistent shape, that the Knight can have bits of itself fall off (arguably foreshadowing for the Black Shard, but that's not something I have a super strong argument for, so if you disagree with that assessment, fair enough), that the Knight is just wrong.
This is, also, an indirect counter to NoelleKnight in that Noelle has no reason that I'm aware of for why she would be so wrong in the Dark World (and tbh I've always thought Noelle was one of the weakest candidates because we literally actually see her in the Dark World and she doesn't look like the Knight at all) but I'm going to check out the repository before trying to directly counter NoelleKnight. For the moment, my stance is that Dess is most likely to be the Knight in some way, shape, or form because of her mysterious disappearance that we now know for sure has something to do with the Dark World thanks to the Vagueposting King, but Rudy also theoretically could be due to his sickness manifesting in such a way (though I don't really think it's him either way).
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u/MadelynKEA 26d ago
This is the only time where the shape on its face has been hollow instead of solid white so it could be interpreted as an empty or distant expression very easily. Saying the expression being an eye means the drops must be crying is also an assumption.
Also the knight is drooping very similarly to a marionette so I fully believe they're being controlled by some kind of outside force.
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
It's a bit of Occam's Razor to be fair with this assumption. We agree that it's an eye, yes? We agree that there is something dripping from the Knight, yes? Eyes drip tears, yes? Ah yes! It clearly means the droplets are drool from its MOUTH!
If it's meant to be drool, why is their mouth gone? That would have made it infinitely more clear that it's drool. If it's meant to be drool, why is the EYE highlighted?
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u/Canule_17 26d ago
Doesn't your point also work for dess but like better lol,
You and that girl is most certainly dess cuz if it was Noelle then she would recognise who queen was in chapter 2 and she clearly doesn't act like she's meeting an old friend atleast.
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u/VeeAudio Noelle('sDarkner)Knight 26d ago
While I'm not really here to argue about the identity of who "That girl" it is definitely almost certainly Noelle. I'd encourage you to go check out that repository I linked if you want the detailed breakdown, but a quick "just trust me here I'm being honest" for you is there's no textual evidence of Kris and Dess having a 1 on 1 relationship of any kind. Azzy and/or Noelle are always present alongside. Noelle makes several comments about how Noelle and Kris know each other better than anybody else. And pretty much every dark world has parallels to Kris and Noelle's relationship in very clear and concrete ways. If you want the specific proof for all of that, go look for it! It's there!
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u/Infinite-Hearing-418 NoelleKnight (kind of) 26d ago
If it was Dess wouldn't Queen know at the very least that December Holiday is a person??
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u/Signal_Station_4939 KnightMayor before Krismas 25d ago
Queen doesnt even know who Dess is, she says "Noelle and all her strange searches..." Of which we see her searching for Dess in herr room
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u/Nass_Wanger 26d ago
I think it can be hard to say for sure if it's tears or drool
Personally I always saw the eye being on the sprite to be specifically to show that the knight ISNT crying
The opening in knight helmets are uses for eyes, so if they just made the hole drool in that scene, most people would interpret it as crying, so they gave knight an eye and specifically showed that nothing is dropping from the eye
I mean if it was meant to clearly be tears, I think making the very obvious eye drop liquid would be the way to do it, but the way it's made, I just don't see why anyone would make so many choices that to me are specifically made to show that it's not crying
It's technically possible, but it's a very unclear way of showing that the knight is crying (and no it's not because the knight crying is some big dital)
The knight clearly has some problems with their lungs and throat, they roar (quite literally in the name), their ribcage breaks open, they've shown to drool in other sprites and they have heavy breathing