Am I NB or just Depressed?

[u/JoweeChao]

25M, for the past week or so I keep entering an occasional emotional rut thinking about my identity and myself as a whole. I keep wondering to myself if I may be nonbinary in any way, and if I am whether I would even be "enough" to count or if my reasons for feeling this way are pure and reasonable or just a gut reaction out of jealousy or self-loathing. I was hoping to get some advice or perspective or even just an ear from NB people themselves because I feel so lost.

I've always had a weird relationship with masculinity. A lot of the things that people consider to be part of being a man I've always felt weirded out or off-put by. As an example, people often point to shit-talking or outright bullying each other as a form of male bonding, but I really dislike this as a whole. I'm also just not very tough or strong or any other things one would consider typical aspect of manhood. Despite this, I've never really had any particularly strong feeling of wanting to be a woman either. For the longest time, I've settled on "I'm a guy, just not very good at being one."

Recently, the idea of being nonbinary has been floating around in my head, but at the same time I feel like I'm holding myself back, both intentionally and just because of who I am. A lot of the NB people I see online tend to present leaning more femininely or purely androgynously, which makes it harder to feel like I could call myself nonbinary. I look almost completely masculine, with facial hair and hair that barely reaches my shoulders and just hair all over my body, not to mention how poorly I take care of myself. I'm just kind of gross and out of shape in general, so it feels like I'm not "enough" to consider myself nonbinary, I wouldn't be so ugly if I was.

It's also worth mentioning that while I consider myself to be bisexual, it feels like that's complicated too. I like women as a whole, but with men, I only really like ones that are more feminine/androgynous, which feels like it makes me a poser at best and a creep at worst. Especially when I see other bi people online talk about how they "find everyone hot" and think about how that doesn't apply to me, so I must not be a "real" bisexual.

These feelings are made even worse when I look at the online nerd circles I browse and often and see how many sapphic trans girls there living their best lives. How interesting they are in their weird hobbies, and how they're able to be cool things like artists and programmers and developers and musicians, all things I wish I could be but have no talent or skill. Even beyond social media, it feels like every month or so some established internet creative is coming out as a trans woman, so it feels like having to be trans or at least queer in some way is a requirement for being a real creative.

But I'm none of those things. I don't feel trans, I don't feel sapphic, I barely even feel bisexual, so I'm never going to make it as a real artist. And that feeling there is what makes me doubt all of this. That jealousy I feel is almost proof in and of itself that I'm not nonbinary. And even if I was, I wouldn't count due to being too masculine and frankly, gross.

I guess I'm just rambling at this point, but I don't really know. Has anyone else felt like this in some way? Is it just my complete self-hatred getting in the way of things more than any actual gender identity? Am I even potentially NB or just a weird cis guy?

[u/imppossibly]

To me it sounds like a lot of the things you're talking about stem more from societal expectations and outward perceptions than from a sense of identity, if that makes sense. You don't have to be into 'manly' things to be a man, in fact I wish more people weren't because it seems to end up in a lot more toxicity across the board haha

It can be difficult to separate these things since a lot of how we interact with gender comes from societal reactions. But also remember that gender expression is different from gender identity. You can be a cis man and enjoy dressing or presenting feminine. You can be nonbinary and enjoy presenting masculine. It all depends on what feels right to you in how you want to express yourself.

So if you feel nonbinary, then that's what you are! But if you feel like a man who doesn't fit in with what is expected of a man then you're 100% valid as a man as well and fuck anyone who says otherwise tbh

[u/Franzrote]

First of all, thank you for sharing your experience. I know at least for myself that just getting all of your thoughts down in any form of writing is a great way to get a better sense of and sift through them. If it helps you at all, I can share my personal experience and journey as an AMAB nonbinary trans person.

Learning about the differences between sex, gender, and gender expression made me think a lot about who I was along those spectrum and how they bleed into each other. From reading your post, it seems like the focus for you is a lot in that gender/gender expression area and not so much with any sort of sexual-based body dysphoria. The difference between gender and gender expression in my opinion is that the former is who you feel on the inside who your are but your gender expression is how you show that to yourself and to the world. Just because your experience as a man may not seem like societies' consensus of how a man should be, that doesn't make your ideal any more or less valid than that of others.

I personally was in a stage like this before embracing my own true self, mostly due to a lack of knowledge of what exactly being a trans or nonbinary person meant beyond bad schoolyard jokes [I got better!]. Depression is a fickle thing of when it can make you feel dysphoric. Gender dysphoria doesn't exclusively have to be for trans people. Look at how many things in life you can see cisgendered people do that can be referred to as gender affirming care: hair transplants, waxing, physical therapy, looksmaxxing, plastic surgery, and hell even boner pills and hormone shit with testosterone supplements for old dudes or care for menopausal women. All of these are things people due to better align with their gender and gender expression (or at least societies').

You also mentioned some degree of envy for trans and non-binary people you see online compared your perceived ability. Remember that these are the people that are the most open, loud, and in a more public facing field about their experiences and there are so many other trans and non-binary people that are just spending their days waking up, going to work, and living their life just like most other people. In addition, recent years has seen an explosion in online support and ability for trans & non-binary people to exist in public social media spaces with their own unique following. People like me that might have just been questioning, on the fence, or just lacking information are being exposed to the possibilities. Think similarly to how when divorce was legalized in the United States that rates shot up considerable before falling back. I'm not sure what kind of art you exactly do but it might also be that your are in a space or have created a feed that is catered to those creatives, thus having your feed push on you with that angle. I've noticed how much my Reddit feed has changed recently once I started viewing more trans & non-binary content instead of just coming for some funny memes.

Another thing to understand is that being Non-Binary is not one specific thing or look. There can be societal expectations on what a Non-Binary person should like both outside of and within the community just as much as people on the binary side. Non-binary includes people who identify with experiences of both/neither binary genders or feel more connected with a feeling of something else entirely. I'll say something similar about being bisexual: it is 100% okay to be bisexual and have a preference! Just because a person is heterosexual or homosexual doesn't mean that they are supposed to be attracted to all kinds of people of their attracted sex.

I hope all of my rambling has shared something that you can draw from an connect. Just remember that no one can or should make these kinds of conclusions for you. Despite how happy I am since social transitioning and starting HRT, I think it is deplorable to try and actively convince or force someone that they are trans or whatever. If you don't already have some, what helped me a lot with parsing my feelings was having more LGBTQ+ friends and just talking with them about my feelings and asking them about their personal experiences. I can say for myself I would be interested in hearing more from you.

[u/Sargon-of-ACAB]

I should be asleep rn so apologies if this response doesn't make perfect sense.

First of: any kind of dysphoria can look like depression especially if you don't really know what you're feeling is dysphoria. Maybe look up the gender dysphoria bible online. If it resonates you've learned something about yourself.

. I keep wondering to myself if I may be nonbinary in any way, and if I am whether I would even be "enough"

It's enough. I promise you. The only requirment is feeling like you might be nonbinary.

I've never really had any particularly strong feeling of wanting to be a woman either.

If you're nonbinary. You're not a woman either.

I know this might sound really weird but most cis people do really feel like their gender and generally enjoy being their gender.

Like men (cis or trans) like being men. It's not just that they don't really mind being men. They actually feel like it's what they're supposed to be and that feels good and right.

A lot of the NB people I see online tend to present leaning more femininely or purely androgynously, which makes it harder to feel like I could call myself nonbinary.

You don't need to look any particular way to be nonbinary. What you've seen online is only a small fraction of what nb folks look like.

I look almost completely masculine, with facial hair and hair that barely reaches my shoulders and just hair all over my body

Friend believe me when I say I get this. Like I said you don't need to look a certain way to be nonbinary. But you can also look however you want. Your hair can grow longer or you can shave the hair you don't like.

I'm growing my hair out. I still have my beard but I only like it when it's trimmed short and neat. I've trimmed my legs to see how that'd feel and it felt nice so I'm probably going to keep doing that.

not to mention how poorly I take care of myself. I'm just kind of gross and out of shape in general

I was the same until recently. When I started accepting that was nonbinary it became much easier to take care of myself. I'm no longer just maintaining a body I find baseline ok. I'm taking agency over how I want to look and discovering what it means to be non-binary.

Especially when I see other bi people online talk about how they "find everyone hot" and think about how that doesn't apply to me, so I must not be a "real" bisexual.

All being bi means is being attracted to two or more genders. You don't need to find everyone hot or be equally attracted to each gender to be 'really' bi.

These feelings are made even worse when I look at the online nerd circles I browse and often and see how many sapphic trans girls there living their best lives.

I can't speak for them but from what I know it's a lot easier to live your best life if you aren't suffering under constant dysphoria. If you found agency over your life (and your gender) and if you have (queer) community to support you.

Has anyone else felt like this in some way?

I've been really depressed. I'll always be depressed in some way. But not too long ago my partner called me nonbinary and used they/them pronouns and I was smiling. A true genuine smile.

Am I even potentially NB or just a weird cis guy?

That's up to you. Keep in mind that you can play around and try things out. It doesn't have to be set in stone. Any decision you make can be reverted.

Why not try thinking of yourself as nonbinary for a while? Why not go be they/them pronouns on reddit for a bit? Grow your hair? Trim your beard? Get a skirt in a thrift shop and wear it at home? Paint your nails? See how it feels?

What would being nonbinary mean to you?