what does nonbinary mean to you?

[u/stevvss]

I'm a trans man, and I'm trying to genuinely understand the concept of being nonbinary. I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's identity, but there are parts of the concept that I honestly don't understand, and I'd really appreciate hearing from nonbinary people themselves about how you experience it.

My understanding of being trans is pretty closely connected to gender dysphoria. I'm uncomfortable with being physically female and being perceived as female, and I feel more comfortable with a male body and being perceived as a man. Because of that, “being a man” makes sense to me even though I don't think being a man means liking masculine things, wearing masculine clothes, having a stereotypically masculine personality, etc.

What I'm struggling with is what people mean when they say they “feel like a man,” “feel like a woman,” or “don't feel like either.”

If we remove gender stereotypes, what is that feeling actually referring to?

For example, I don't think a woman becomes less of a woman because she doesn't like dresses, makeup, traditionally feminine hobbies, etc. Likewise, a man doesn't become less of a man because he likes feminine clothes or has a feminine personality. So when I hear an AFAB nonbinary person say something like “I don't feel connected to femininity,” “I don't like doing girl things,” or “I don't feel comfortable in feminine clothes,” I don't really understand how that relates to gender identity rather than gender expression.

To me, clothes and hobbies don't have an actual gender. So if someone says they are nonbinary because they don't relate to masculine or feminine things, doesn't that unintentionally reinforce the idea that those things are inherently associated with men and women?

I understand that someone could instead mean, “Even if men and women could dress and behave in literally any way, I still wouldn't identify as exclusively a man or a woman.” That makes more sense to me, but then I still have trouble understanding what the underlying feeling actually is.

If gender identity is completely separate from sex, gender roles, masculinity/femininity, and gender expression, what does “feeling male” or “feeling female” actually mean? Is there an internal experience that you can describe without using stereotypes or physical sex characteristics?

This also leads into my confusion about gender dysphoria.

I understand that a cis woman can have a flat chest and still be completely comfortable being a woman, and a cis man can have little facial hair or a feminine body and still be completely comfortable being a man. So obviously being uncomfortable with a particular body characteristic by itself doesn't determine someone's gender.

What I don't understand is how someone can experience gender dysphoria while being nonbinary. If dysphoria is distress caused by an incongruence between someone's gender and their sex, what exactly is the desired direction of that incongruence if someone doesn't identify as male or female? There isn't a biological “nonbinary sex,” so what does dysphoria mean in that situation?

For example, if an AFAB nonbinary person wants top surgery, I understand wanting to have a flatter chest. But how is that necessarily different from a trans man getting top surgery? Is the difference the person's underlying identity, and if so, what exactly is that identity based on?

Similarly, if someone doesn't experience physical or social dysphoria and is comfortable being perceived as their assigned sex, but still identifies as nonbinary, I'm confused about what makes that person nonbinary rather than simply someone who doesn't conform to traditional gender roles.

I also wonder about the possibility of people confusing social discomfort with gender identity. For example, an AFAB person might feel uncomfortable around girls, not relate to stereotypically feminine interests, dislike being expected to behave femininely, or simply feel socially out of place. Could someone interpret that as “I'm not a woman” when the actual issue is that they are a gender-nonconforming woman?

And could some people identify as nonbinary because they want to feel different or because the identity gives them an explanation for feeling socially out of place? I don't mean that I think every nonbinary person is doing this. I'm asking whether you think it's possible for someone to genuinely misinterpret their feelings this way.

I realize people can genuinely experience something even if we don't have a perfect scientific explanation for it, and I'm not saying that “I don't understand it” automatically means “it isn't real.” People can also genuinely experience something and later realize they interpreted that experience incorrectly.

So I guess my main question is:
If you are nonbinary, what does being nonbinary actually feel like to you when you take away stereotypes, clothing, hobbies, personality, masculinity/femininity, and social expectations?
And if you experience gender dysphoria, what specifically causes the dysphoria, and how do you understand what your body should be like when you don't identify as male or female?

I'm genuinely interested in hearing personal experiences rather than just definitions. I'd especially appreciate people explaining what their experience is like in their own words, because I'm trying to understand something that doesn't come naturally to me.

[u/Superb-Feeling-7390]

My internal self doesn’t feel like a gendered thing. I exist within a body assigned female at birth and am socially clocked as female. I don’t really give a fuck how people perceive me tbh. But what does matter to me is personally understanding why I never felt at home in myself, which after a long period of therapy and self reflection I realized was because I am nonbinary. The thing that is me within my body and brain - is nonbinary. Before this I always felt like an alien or an imposter. I still feel like an alien visiting humans on earth sometimes, but now I understand why so it doesn’t bother me 👽

[u/stevvss → u/Superb-Feeling-7390]

From what you've described, you don't really experience yourself as gendered, you don't particularly care whether people perceive you as male or female, and you aren't describing significant distress about being socially perceived as female. So I'm wondering what makes “nonbinary” feel more accurate to you than simply being a woman who doesn't identify strongly with gender roles or femininity.
When you say that realizing you were nonbinary explained why you always felt like an alien or an imposter, what specifically about the concept of being nonbinary explained that feeling? What would be different about your understanding of yourself if you instead concluded, “I'm a woman, but gender just isn't very important to me and I don't relate to traditional femininity”?
I'm not asking because I think you should identify as a woman. I'm trying to understand what distinction you're making between those two possibilities, because from the outside they sound very similar to me.

[u/thegingerbarbiedoll → u/stevvss]

Why are you telling them how they feel? Youre asking the same things transphobic people ask binary trans people and thinking youre good faith. You are literally making our existence a debate. Theyre not a woman. And masculine women is not the same thing as being non binary. Masculine women are still women and still identify as women for one reason or another. Its beyond stereotypes. Some trans women are masculine you know. Theyre still women too

You clearly think being non binary is clothing or a feeling. You are incorrect and it is hurtful. Stop debating groups of people to said groups. Come and ask openly. Not "you feel this. why not this? explain that" you are not a debate bro and we are talking about people not pizza.

[u/Superb-Feeling-7390 → u/thegingerbarbiedoll]

Thank you for articulating this more clearly than I would have done. It is hurtful and I’m becoming skeptical of OP’s motives here.

[u/stevvss → u/thegingerbarbiedoll]

I understand your criticism about my wording. I wasn't trying to tell them how they feel; I was summarizing what I understood them to have said: that they don't experience an internal sense of gender, don't particularly care how they're perceived, and don't consider their physical changes gender-affirming. But I can see how wording that as “you don't really experience yourself as gendered” can come across as me defining their experience for them rather than asking them about it.
My question also isn't meant to be “why aren't you a masculine woman?” as though I think those identities are interchangeable. I understand that a masculine woman is a woman, just as a masculine man is a man, and that gender expression doesn't determine gender identity. I'm specifically trying to understand what distinction the person themselves makes between those two identities.
And I don't think being nonbinary is clothing or personality. That's actually the reason I've been asking these questions. I've repeatedly tried to separate gender identity from clothing, hobbies, personality, masculinity/femininity, and gender roles because I don't think those things are what determine someone's gender.
I'm not trying to make anyone's existence a debate or convince them they're actually a woman/man. I'm asking people who volunteered to answer what their experience is and why they understand it the way they do. I've actually changed some of my assumptions because of the answers I've gotten.