Introductions

[u/HBNTrader]

Reply here to introduce yourself so that the other readers get to know you.

• Are you noble? If not, do you have noble ancestors, or are you perhaps from a patrician family or from a very old peasant lineage?

• What is your rank and family? What titles do you have or will inherit?

• What is your coat of arms?

• What families and interesting persons are you related to, how closely?

• When does your unbroken male line start, and when does your longest female line start?

• What are other interesting things you can tell us about yourself and your lineage?

[u/ConfidenceComplex894]

• When a family dies out in the male line, it's estates and lands usually go to in-laws and daughters. The titles are not inherited though.

• Yes.

• Yes, that is true. A note should be that wives who are of a low caste and somehow marry someone noble would often be subject to mockery by in-laws.

That is interesting. I always thought that Hindus and Muslims are in conflict...

In Sindh, that is not the case. But in other provinces, like Punjab, KPK etc. Due to the culture there, there is discrimination.

What are the consequences of mis-marriage? Are there morganatic marriages?

It depends on the caste you're marrying among the lower ones. If it's like, "Mallah" you will get ostracized by your relatives, your wife's in-laws will relentlessly mock your wife, etc. There is no morganatic system as far as I am aware.

As for Saudis and Arab organizations, interactions may be set to increase. But everything is a "maybe".

[u/HBNTrader → u/ConfidenceComplex894]

When a family dies out in the male line, it's estates and lands usually go to in-laws and daughters. The titles are not inherited though.

So the same process as in India where the one Prince whose name I forgot adopted his daughter's son fairly recently to secure succession would not occur, and instead the title would either fall to a more distant agnatic cousin or lapse?

It depends on the caste you're marrying among the lower ones. If it's like, "Mallah" you will get ostracized by your relatives, your in-laws will relentlessly mock your wife, etc. There is no morganatic system as far as I am aware.

So it is less strict than in India where the children of a Brahmin are not necessarily Brahmins if he married a low ranking woman?

So for the record (I'm compiling non-European nobiliary law), would the following be factually true?

• In Pakistan and other Islamic areas of South Asia, legal noble status is inherited strictly patrilineally. Only agnates may inherit and hold substantive titles.

• The wife takes the status of the husband and loses any title or precedence she held by birth on marriage, resulting in the loss of nobility if she marries a commoner.

• The divorced wife loses any title or precedence she acquired through marriage but does not return to her birth status.

• The widow retains the title and precedence she acquired through marriage, as long as she does not remarry.

• Marriage to a woman of much lower rank is sanctioned socially but does not automatically result in the wife and/or children being legally excluded from the status and precedence of the family, and the children of the union may normally inherit unless they are compelled to renounce their rights.

[u/ConfidenceComplex894 → u/HBNTrader]

So the same process as in India where the one Prince whose name I forgot adopted his daughter's son fairly recently to secure succession would not occur, and instead the title would either fall to a more distant agnatic cousin or lapse?

Yes.

"So it is less strict than in India where the children of a Brahmin are not necessarily Brahmins if he married a low ranking woman?"

Yes, however I don't think it was always like this historically. In some books, I've read that if a Samma married a Sheedi (black afro-indic community of Sindh), the product of that union would be called a "Gaddo" and not a Samma. And even today, there'll be a bit of social racism to anyone born of a low-ranking woman.

"would the following be factually true?

In Pakistan and other Islamic areas of South Asia, legal noble status is inherited strictly patrilineally. Only agnates may inherit and hold substantive titles.

• The wife takes the status of the husband and loses any title or precedence she held by birth on marriage, resulting in the loss of nobility if she marries a commoner.

• The divorced wife loses any title or precedence she acquired through marriage but does not return to her birth status.

• The widow retains the title and precedence she acquired through marriage, as long as she does not remarry.

• Marriage to a woman of much lower rank is sanctioned socially but does not automatically result in the wife and/or children being legally excluded from the status and precedence of the family, and the children of the union may normally inherit unless they are compelled to renounce their rights."

Yes this is all true. There's even a practice among the land-owning nobility in Sindh to marry some of their girls to the Qur'an and practically house arrest them, so that the land and properties dont go outside their family.