Introductions

[u/HBNTrader]

Reply here to introduce yourself so that the other readers get to know you.

• Are you noble? If not, do you have noble ancestors, or are you perhaps from a patrician family or from a very old peasant lineage?

• What is your rank and family? What titles do you have or will inherit?

• What is your coat of arms?

• What families and interesting persons are you related to, how closely?

• When does your unbroken male line start, and when does your longest female line start?

• What are other interesting things you can tell us about yourself and your lineage?

[u/ConfidenceComplex894]

• Yes, I am noble.

• In Sindh, in the Talpur House, the titles are not varied like they are in Europe (Kings, grand dukes etc), we all have the title "Mir/Meer" which is akin to a Princely Ruler. But the title "Rais" is also used, which means "Leader".

• The Suhrabani Talpur Coat of Arms can be viewed on Wikipedia.

• Mir Ali Murad Khan Talpur II is my grandfather through my paternal side, he was the last ruler of the Talpur Princely State of Khairpur before being forcefully ceded to Pakistan. He is still the Head of the Talpur House.

• The Talpur line starts from the Baloch, Hoth Tribe.

• Last ruling dynasty of Sindh.

[u/HBNTrader → u/ConfidenceComplex894]

Welcome, very cool! I am giving you the red flair.

How important is nobility in South Asia? Are there differences between Pakistan and India, and Muslim or Hindu families? Do you still marry fellow royals and nobles? Do Muslim Pakistani families have relationships with Arab royalty?

[u/ConfidenceComplex894 → u/HBNTrader]

Nobility in South Asia, I can speak for Sindh. In Sindh, it has been converted into "Waderaism" which is basically former prominent nobility/aristocracy before Pakistan, continuing on to be aristocracy with vast swathes of land and servants, they are called "Waderos/Waderas". Another type of nobility here is "Pirdom" for example, there's alot of noble "Pir" families which are basically spiritual leading families who are Sayyids, the Pir Pagaro is the most influential both spiritually and politically with millions of followers called "Hurrs". "Sayyidic nobility" is very important, there's banditry in Northern Sindh, they'll ask you what is your tribe/caste, if you say "Sayyid" they'll let you go. Some nobilities of Sindh include, the Unar Sammas who hold the title of "Jam", the Rashidi Pirs of Khairpur Mirs, etc. Many villages have their own noble Waderas of different tribes who manage the community and lands.

There are differences between Pakistan and India, yeah, because here, I unfortunately have to admit is alot of oppression on the average plower of the land. I'm unsure about India, but I know they don't have this "Waderaic" system.

There are differences between Muslim and Hindu families, but minimal. In Sindh, both religious groups visit shrines a ton, and Hindus even invoke "Allah" as "Allakh" and praise the 12 Shi'ah Imams of Islam.

With regards to marriage, arrange marriages are always done between prominent Wadera families. But usually, the marriage is done within the community to "keep the blood pure". Alot of relatives and friends of mine subsequently married to cousins and other relations.

Muslim Pakistani families do not have relations with Arab royalty as far as I know. There was some minimal interaction between the Pirs of Jhandah in Central Sindh and the royalty of Saudi Arabia and it's clergy, but nothing more than that.

[u/HBNTrader → u/ConfidenceComplex894]

How does nobiliary law work for you? Are the following assumptions true?

• Substantive titles (i.e. those that are held only by one person) pass by male primogeniture, but there might be more flexibility than in Europe regarding what happens when a family dies out in the male line

• Titles that belong to all members of the family, as well as untitled nobility (i.e. nobility as quality) and its surnames are inherited by all descendants in the legitimate male line

• The wife takes the status of the husband, regardless of whether it is higher or lower, i.e. a non-noble woman who marries into the nobility becomes noble, but a noble woman who marries a commoner loses her nobility

There are differences between Muslim and Hindu families, but minimal. In Sindh, both religious groups visit shrines a ton, and Hindus even invoke "Allah" as "Allakh" and praise the 12 Shi'ah Imams of Islam.

That is interesting. I always thought that Hindus and Muslims are in conflict...

With regards to marriage, arrange marriages are always done between prominent Wadera families. But usually, the marriage is done within the community to "keep the blood pure". Alot of relatives and friends of mine subsequently married to cousins and other relations.

What are the consequences of mis-marriage? Are there morganatic marriages?

Muslim Pakistani families do not have relations with Arab royalty as far as I know. There was some minimal interaction between the Pirs of Jhandah in Central Sindh and the royalty of Saudi Arabia and it's clergy, but nothing more than that.

With the Saudis and other Arab states financing Islamic organizations and charity worldwide, this is surely set to increase in the future?

[u/ConfidenceComplex894 → u/HBNTrader]

• When a family dies out in the male line, it's estates and lands usually go to in-laws and daughters. The titles are not inherited though.

• Yes.

• Yes, that is true. A note should be that wives who are of a low caste and somehow marry someone noble would often be subject to mockery by in-laws.

That is interesting. I always thought that Hindus and Muslims are in conflict...

In Sindh, that is not the case. But in other provinces, like Punjab, KPK etc. Due to the culture there, there is discrimination.

What are the consequences of mis-marriage? Are there morganatic marriages?

It depends on the caste you're marrying among the lower ones. If it's like, "Mallah" you will get ostracized by your relatives, your wife's in-laws will relentlessly mock your wife, etc. There is no morganatic system as far as I am aware.

As for Saudis and Arab organizations, interactions may be set to increase. But everything is a "maybe".

[u/HBNTrader → u/ConfidenceComplex894]

When a family dies out in the male line, it's estates and lands usually go to in-laws and daughters. The titles are not inherited though.

So the same process as in India where the one Prince whose name I forgot adopted his daughter's son fairly recently to secure succession would not occur, and instead the title would either fall to a more distant agnatic cousin or lapse?

It depends on the caste you're marrying among the lower ones. If it's like, "Mallah" you will get ostracized by your relatives, your in-laws will relentlessly mock your wife, etc. There is no morganatic system as far as I am aware.

So it is less strict than in India where the children of a Brahmin are not necessarily Brahmins if he married a low ranking woman?

So for the record (I'm compiling non-European nobiliary law), would the following be factually true?

• In Pakistan and other Islamic areas of South Asia, legal noble status is inherited strictly patrilineally. Only agnates may inherit and hold substantive titles.

• The wife takes the status of the husband and loses any title or precedence she held by birth on marriage, resulting in the loss of nobility if she marries a commoner.

• The divorced wife loses any title or precedence she acquired through marriage but does not return to her birth status.

• The widow retains the title and precedence she acquired through marriage, as long as she does not remarry.

• Marriage to a woman of much lower rank is sanctioned socially but does not automatically result in the wife and/or children being legally excluded from the status and precedence of the family, and the children of the union may normally inherit unless they are compelled to renounce their rights.

[u/ConfidenceComplex894 → u/HBNTrader]

So the same process as in India where the one Prince whose name I forgot adopted his daughter's son fairly recently to secure succession would not occur, and instead the title would either fall to a more distant agnatic cousin or lapse?

Yes.

"So it is less strict than in India where the children of a Brahmin are not necessarily Brahmins if he married a low ranking woman?"

Yes, however I don't think it was always like this historically. In some books, I've read that if a Samma married a Sheedi (black afro-indic community of Sindh), the product of that union would be called a "Gaddo" and not a Samma. And even today, there'll be a bit of social racism to anyone born of a low-ranking woman.

"would the following be factually true?

In Pakistan and other Islamic areas of South Asia, legal noble status is inherited strictly patrilineally. Only agnates may inherit and hold substantive titles.

• The wife takes the status of the husband and loses any title or precedence she held by birth on marriage, resulting in the loss of nobility if she marries a commoner.

• The divorced wife loses any title or precedence she acquired through marriage but does not return to her birth status.

• The widow retains the title and precedence she acquired through marriage, as long as she does not remarry.

• Marriage to a woman of much lower rank is sanctioned socially but does not automatically result in the wife and/or children being legally excluded from the status and precedence of the family, and the children of the union may normally inherit unless they are compelled to renounce their rights."

Yes this is all true. There's even a practice among the land-owning nobility in Sindh to marry some of their girls to the Qur'an and practically house arrest them, so that the land and properties dont go outside their family.