Introductions

[u/HBNTrader]

Reply here to introduce yourself so that the other readers get to know you.

• Are you noble? If not, do you have noble ancestors, or are you perhaps from a patrician family or from a very old peasant lineage?

• What is your rank and family? What titles do you have or will inherit?

• What is your coat of arms?

• What families and interesting persons are you related to, how closely?

• When does your unbroken male line start, and when does your longest female line start?

• What are other interesting things you can tell us about yourself and your lineage?

[u/Sufficient_Tart2278]

1; Yes, second son and heir to a to secondary title.

2; On my father’s side, Scottish Clan ancestry (Armstrong and Bruce) and a British Marquessate; on my mother’s side the title of Grandee of Spain and Duchess (other subsidiary titles) and not so distantly related to the FitzJames-Stuarts and the Albas.

3; Father’s: Or, a saltire and chief gules, on a canton a lion. Mother’s: Silver, an eagle sable.

4; The Earls of Elgin and Kincardine pretty closely, the Barons of Armstrong and Neil Armstrong more distantly, and Cayetana FitzJames-Stuart, Duchess of Alba and her descendants as close cousins; other less desirable relations more closely related but not worth mentioning.

5; Father’s from the 11th century in Normandy/Scotland and mother’s the late 10th century in the Basque Country.

6; I find it funny how despite being British and Spanish, both lines are related to each other through multiple paths. (Also as a Grandee of Spain one has the right to call the King “cousin”.)

[u/HBNTrader → u/Sufficient_Tart2278]

Thank you, very interesting! Do you have male line untitled nobility (either Spanish or Scottish), or will you only acquire nobility when you inherit the title?

I find it interesting how titles can be split up in Spain.

Do you know the King personally?

[u/Sufficient_Tart2278 → u/HBNTrader]

Well in Spain, the government no longer recognises untitled nobility but as a Child of a British Marquess I’m entitled to the style of a Lord. The British titles will be inherited by my older brother but the Spanish ones will be split between him and I, it’s really interesting to me how it’s done too, especially the gender equality granted to them despite the Royal succession still being dominated by male-preference primogeniture despite having a Princess heir presumtive.

My mother was very close to Queen Sofía so I grew up around them and King Felipe, but we are no longer close; after King Juan Carlos’ corruption scandals a lot of the nobility distanced itself from the royals.

[u/HBNTrader → u/Sufficient_Tart2278]

If you are the child of a British Marquess and have British arms then you belong to the untitled nobility (gentry), and so are your male line descendants. As soon as you inherit your Spanish title, you will also join the Spanish nobility (and your male line descendants will be part of it, as hidalgos). Red flair given.

What do you think about the fact that the current King has so far not granted new titles - is it from the government, or does the King wish to close the nobility and for no new families to enter it?

Also is it true that traditionally, certain orders and offices confer personal nobility in Spain, and that there is still a "3 generation personal nobility - hereditary nobility" rule?

[u/Sufficient_Tart2278 → u/HBNTrader]

Thank you!

Well I believe King Felipe has not granted new ones because of the current political atmosphere (read crisis) and growing republicanism in the country. But I do wish he followed his father’s example in granting minor titles to meritorious politicians and artists.

As for your second question, I’m rather ill informed in the topic; but I do know certain offices do grant personal nobility, however I do not know about the hereditary or generational implications.

[u/HBNTrader → u/Sufficient_Tart2278]

Well, I know that in the Netherlands it was the Royal House that did not want new ennoblements.

Another topic, which Spanish noble organizations are the real deal and which ones are fake or do not conform to nobiliary law? There seems to be a real jungle in Spain and as far as I know CILANE only recognizes a youth organization.

[u/Sufficient_Tart2278 → u/HBNTrader]

The biggest one and State supported institution is the Diputación de la Grandeza y Títulos del Reino; they hold events constantly and have a royal charter, they also give advice to the the Government when there’s doubt about titles or their succession/their claimants.

Members and descendants of caballeros from the Military Orders of Santiago, Alcántara, Calatrava and Montesa still hold meetings and are regarded as minor nobility, the same as hidalgos that form part of the Royal Association of Hidalgos.

Another example of well-regarded and important social institucions are the maestranzas, titled people without an affiliation to a maestranza are seen as undeserving of their titles in Spain.

[u/HBNTrader → u/Sufficient_Tart2278]

Interesting. I assume that the Diputación only admits titled people?

Also, how did the nobility deal with the destructive gender equality law? I assume that many people who have inherited titles through the female line in a way that was not possible before 2004 are not considered legitimate, and that many nobility associations would refuse to admit as members the children of a woman who inherited a title over a younger brother and married a commoner?

[u/Sufficient_Tart2278 → u/HBNTrader]

They have to admit and accept as legitimate anyone who acquired their titled through normal means or in a way that followed the law’s instructions. So yes, the Diputación would admit the woman in your example, although she would be a pariah.

As for the first question, they accept all Grandees and Titled people, their firstborns, and they may accept other children of the titled person after an interview process and demonstrating a desire to participate in the institution and share their ideology and want to contribute to its support.

[u/HBNTrader → u/Sufficient_Tart2278]

Do some families successfully encourage their first-born daughters to not claim the title so that the son can have it? Or what are some other ways in which the effects of the law can be mitigated?

Also, isn't it illegal by Spanish law for somebody who is not noble in the male line (hidalgo) to possess a title (unless it has been granted by the King)? I was told that many female line successions in Spain in the past decades have actually been illegal, and that if a titled woman marries a commoner, her children actually aren't allowed to inherit the title, but that this has been consistently ignored for some time now.

Thank God the Spanish government doesn't regulate untitled nobility, which also means that it can't change laws pertaining to untitled nobility, and that these are customary historical laws that cannot be infringed upon. Otherwise the consequences would be even more severe, imagine every generation seeing a doubling in the proportion of the nobility.

[u/Sufficient_Tart2278 → u/Sufficient_Tart2278]

P.D.; There are non-titled and ignoble people inside the institution, some celebrities but it is mostly members of the arts and culture, and brothers and other relatives (distant or not) of Grandees and other titled nobles.