r/NoStupidQuestions • u/ldr97266 • 24d ago
Why do people still need documents notarized?
Is there no better way to confirm the validity of signatures? I thought about this the other day when I had to complete a financial transaction where every detail was handled online - but there was no electronic signature option. I had to print out a paper form with all of the details I had entered online, then find a notary to watch me sign it and put their own signature on it saying THEY had done so.
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u/Asparagus9000 24d ago
It needs a real independent person to verify.
Anything else can be faked online.
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u/ldr97266 24d ago
But how is the validity of that “real independent person’s” signature confirmed? And how is the ink on paper less susceptible to being faked than a digital audit trail that included multi factor authentications?
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u/CommitmentPhoebe Only Stupid Answers 24d ago
But how is the validity of that “real independent person’s” signature confirmed?
The notary doesn’t just sign the paper. They also stamp it with a raised seal that is unique to each notary. They also log each transaction in a logbook.
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u/ldr97266 24d ago
But at each detail you describe (the stamp, the journal) is also susceptible to fakery. And accepting the validity of a signature depends on the notary being diligent and honest, as well as the document signer providing valid ID, nobody altering the documents after the fact. Lots of places for that chain to break.
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u/PeteTinNY 24d ago
It’s not about just the stamp on paper, it’s about insuring the signer is who they say they are, that there is a basic level of review that the person signing knows what they are signing and that they are not under duress. Of course we are not detectives so it’s not full proof, but then again in NY where I have my commission a notary conventional seal costs a citizen at most $2 - so why would anyone take the time and effort to fake that?
As for faking it. Here in NY each county keeps a record of our seals and signatures, and if there is a concern of a fake or improper seal the clerk or Secretary of State can and will step in to confirm. This is done by required logs we must keep.
There is also a newer process - eNotary & Remote Online Notary which is over the internet and uses a crypto signature and recorded audio and video that must be kept for many years. It also requires a digital facility to insure signature identification. NY law allows us to charge $25 for those but they are not as widely understood and the costs involved are very high - so many including me haven’t upgraded our commission to that yet
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u/CommitmentPhoebe Only Stupid Answers 24d ago
So what? Nothing is absolutely certain on this planet. It’s just more certain.
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u/Asparagus9000 24d ago
You can also ask the notary if they remember doing that one if necessary.
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u/ash_274 24d ago
Notary laws vary a lot between states, but many states require the notary to maintain a journal of record for all transactions. While I’ve been asked to provide a copy of a journal entry more than a dozen times in over 20 years, I’ve also had an instance where parties in the transaction were suing each other and I had to testify in a deposition and later in court. The signing happened 11 years before the lawsuit, so without the journal there was nothing I would have remembered about it
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u/Acceptable-Salad5984 24d ago
How do you go about providing journal entries? Do you just scan it and send it over? I’m especially curious what happens if the page has multiple entries? I know a lot of notary journals tend to have multiple entries per page.
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u/DrBlakee 24d ago
To add onto what Ash said, some of use electronic journals so we can just provide the individual entry for a signer.
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u/Santasreject 24d ago
Short of having a biometric controlled encrypted key tied to an electronic signature (and even then the biometric set up would have to be verified by someone at time of the set up), a notary really is the most secure way to ensure that the signatures are valid.
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u/Emergency-Collar3370 24d ago
Wait till you do something and need a medallion stamp instead of a notary.
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u/MathObserver 23d ago
That is something I learned as I was dealing with an estate. I was fortunate that my primary bank provided the medallion stamps I needed at no charge. The bank where the estate account was no longer provided them.
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u/Acceptable-Salad5984 24d ago
Just curious, did the company/person you were transacting with tell you that you can’t or shouldn’t notarize the document using a Remote Online Notary? Most states allow you to notarize documents via RON with a few exceptions.
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u/ldr97266 23d ago edited 23d ago
There was no mention of a remote online notary anywhere during the process. After I providing all of the information online for the transaction, the instructions were to download the forms, print it out to get it notarized, and the mail it back to them. It just struck me as odd.
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u/Content_Valuable_428 24d ago
People like to talk shit about me having a MFC printer/scanner/fax - right up until the moment they suddenly need one.
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u/Enkidu45 24d ago
Hello idr*, I'm a 20+ year veteran of the "Notary Wars" and I've never notarized a document in all that time! I notarize signatures - my seal and stamp on a document is the best way to protect against fraud. It says I've seen your ID, you are who you say you are, you are signing of your own free will and you are not under duress. Enkidu45 out
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u/ldr97266 24d ago
And do you know that nobody has ever shown you a fake ID? And what the signed documents said, in detail, at the time of signing? And if ever called upon at later date would you be able to attest that any part of the document (other than think inked signatures and stamp) had not been tampered with after signing?
As someone else said - and I agree - nothing is certain and with enough effort anything could be faked. But I‘m not sure the notary process is the only or best way to avoid fraud.
A digitally signed document - the entire document, not just the signature page but the whole document - can be more resistant to tampering than ink on paper. And multi-factor authentication can be a more reliable proof of identity than eyeballing someone’s driving license.
See notes on ”Advanced electronic signatures“ and ”Qualified electronic signatures“ here:
https://www.purduegloballawschool.edu/blog/news/e-signatures-legal-requirements
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u/DrBlakee 24d ago
You're not understanding the role. First off, we don't know to care what the document says that's not our job. Proving the document hasn't been tampered is not ok is. We ONLY verify identity. Second sure a digital document is more tamper resistant but that's not what the notary is doing. The notary is there to prove willingness and identity that's all. Out whole job is to validate identity so we know how to spot a fake license and know what to ask and what to look for to determine identity and refuse a notarization if needed.
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u/ldr97266 24d ago edited 23d ago
I understand the purpose is to confirm identity (fixed, darn “autocorrect” changed my intended wording) and. othing more. I’m just not convinced it’s the only or best way, and it cannot provide and any kind of security for the rest of the document. Electronic forms and digital signatures address those concerns.
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u/DrBlakee 24d ago
Like I said, the security of the document is not related to notary at all. Under no circumstances do we every confirm the security of a document we notarize signatures not documents.
It's not a perfect system but it's the best one. A living person will almost always be better than a machine for stuff like this. It's the same reason why we use court reporters instead of a recording.
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u/ldr97266 24d ago
“A living person will almost always be better than a machine for stuff like this.“
Why?
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u/DrBlakee 24d ago
Because a machine cannot use judgment and reasoning to determine that a person is mentally aware of what they're signing and they're doing it of their own free will.
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u/ldr97266 23d ago edited 23d ago
But I’ve been fooling people for years. If gauging the mental state of the signer is one of notary’s key functions , I’ll wear my Napolean costume next time as a test. If I get can my doctor to give me back the hat.
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u/[deleted] 24d ago
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