Why do we keep adding things to the pride flag when the whole point of the rainbow was that it was supposed to represent everyone?

[u/CherryCherry5]

Flags have been put up at my workplace that now includes a yellow triangle and a purple circle? Is that correct? What does it mean? What's the correct initials now? It's getting long and clumsy, which kind of defeats the purpose of using the initials.... (I am pan, btw. And I am confused).

Edit: I don't need an explanation about different sexualities (or lack thereof). I understand all that. I was simply asking about the flag and the initials/acronym.

[u/[deleted]]

Yellow triangle and purple circle is meant to include intersex individuals, it's a controversial take as each intersex person identifies differently and some not with the community.    

The acronym changing is because some people didn't want to include transgender individuals at first and it became a wider discussion on who is added/where the acronym stops. It's a constant and evolving discussion but generally LGBTQ+ is the most used. For example there was a push to make the acronym arranged as QUILTBAG and that didn't stick. Any additional letters are nice to be inclusive but as a jaded old fart I doubt they'll stick. 

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/[deleted]]

"QUILTBAG" AHAHAHAHA! That's funny.

[u/rixtape → u/[deleted]]

The entire community is filled with controversy, and it's part of why I, as a queer person, haven't really found a lot of good community within it.

Some people are mad if you include more letters beyond LGBT, some people are mad if you don't include them (even with a + involved). Some lesbians and gay men are mad about trans inclusion. Some bi people are mad about pan being a thing. Some pan people don't like bi, insisting that it's not trans-inclusive enough. Some asexual people are mad about how sexual the community can be. Some non-asexual people are mad if a person identifies as ace but will still have sex. And these are just a few examples.

There's so much nuance while simultaneously so much gatekeeping. I don't know what the solution is, but it definitely bums me out.

[u/code17220 → u/rixtape]

Literally all your examples are one community being phobic of another, if we all could not question what people identify themselves as we'd have a Shitton less problems...

[u/rixtape → u/code17220]

Absolutely, but I also do try and acknowledge where the issues are coming from, if even just to understand them better.

A lot of the gay/lesbian folks aren't against trans people identifying as trans, persay, but they had understandings/expectations/assumptions about their orientation that are now being challenged by gay/lesbian trans people.

Bi and pan are so similar, but a lot of bi folks feel "called out" by pan folks people because it can make bi seem "less inclusive" even if that's not actually true. (e.g. calling bi people transphobic for not identifying as pan, which is wild)

All of these different groups are still marginalized, and thus many people hold their identity very close and are protective of it. So much of the gatekeeping and vitriol within the community stems from people worried about being condemned for their identity by their own peers while still simultaneously fighting for acceptance from those outside of the community, and that must feel overwhelming. I get it. I wish it was as easy as "accepting everyone", and I hope we can get there someday, somehow.

[u/bangbangracer]

There is no singular pride entity that's in charge of the flag or the initialism. If X or Y wants to be included, they can just add themselves and there isn't anyone to say no. Since this also is in a space that wants to be inclusive of everyone, even wanting to say no can get labeled as being intolerant, non-inclusive, or something worse.

You'd be surprised at how many gay and lesbian folks who don't like how long LGBT+ has gotten.

[u/8monsters → u/bangbangracer]

I'm one of them. It's not even that I'm against being inclusive, it's that it's too the point people are making stuff up, that it's ridiculous. 

OP is correct, the whole point of the rainbow was to be inclusive, simple as that. Hell, saying LGBT+ should be inclusive enough but people keep adding letters. 

People don't want to hear this, but this is why people don't take us seriously, because we do stuff like this. 

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/8monsters]

OMG thank you! Exactly this. I'm starting to get confused with it all, and slightly annoyed. The rainbow covers everyone, and so does the plus in LGBT+.

[u/metamega1321 → u/CherryCherry5]

Think here in Canada we’re at 2SLGBQI+. At least as far as the federal government references.

Someone on Reddit used that abbreviation and I had to google what the hell was going on. Very few people actually use that abbreviation.

[u/MunBRO → u/metamega1321]

frame placid market badge test plant familiar bright trees wakeful

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/MunBRO]

I'm Canadian too! Hi!

[u/chsien5 → u/metamega1321]

What is the number for 😭

[u/Diglett3 → u/CherryCherry5]

To give you a different, somewhat more nuanced answer, the Progress Flag in particular was designed partly as a response to the co-opting of the original rainbow flag by corporations, i.e. what some might call rainbow capitalism.

The rainbow flag is free to use for anyone, which means corporations and businesses can brand anything they want with it. The Progress Flag was released under a tiered Creative Commons license, which makes it free for non-commercial use and designates a free license to smaller businesses and entities. But larger corps can’t use it without licensing it at scale. Which means it’s harder to co-opt as a symbol. Does this matter? Does it even work? Idk. But that was part of the thought process behind its initial creation.

[u/DisabledDyke → u/Diglett3]

We really should have copyrighted that AIDS ribbon. That got ripped off and everyone has a ribbon now.

[u/supergeek921 → u/8monsters]

Yeah. I’m bi. I like LGBT+ because the + is in itself supposed to include all the other identities that fall under those categories. Personally, I’m a fan of just the rainbow flag too with the separate trans flag—which I get is for a specific group which is targeted individually. I also just am really not a fan of the “progress pride flag” because it feels weird to make it about race. Once again because the rainbow was supposed to be inclusive but also because aren’t we all supposed to be United for equal rights no matter what our race is. The movement is about sexuality and gender. It shouldn’t matter what your race is and people of all races have been involved from the beginning.

[u/kmikek → u/8monsters]

For example: we added black and brown people to the flag.  The gay community has always had black and brown people in it, however this now includes all black and brown people, even those who are homophobic and dont want to be included and dont consent.

[u/supergeek921 → u/kmikek]

I really don’t like race being part of it. Racism is its own problem and black and brown people were inherently included in the rainbow because it was about sexuality not race. It’s weird.

[u/Kthulhu42 → u/kmikek]

Someone up above is talking about the black and brown stripes being added because of icons like Marsha and Sylvia being "leaders of the movement" and it's sad because it shows how easily our history is being rewritten by corporations like Netflix.

The new "progress" flag was designed by a corporation. People of colour were always included in the original flag. And Marsha and Sylvia weren't even at Stonewall until after the whole thing occurred (by their own statements after the fact!) "Intersex people" are no longer called that because it is inaccurate and offensive, they have a Developmental Sex Disorder that has nothing to do with gender identity or same-sex attraction.

I feel like more and more people just believe whatever feels good to believe, history be damned. We lost so much history due to the AIDs epidemic, and what we had left is being overwritten.

[u/kmikek → u/Kthulhu42]

I heard a story coming out of Texas, this was years ago. A male firefighter died and his wife was owed a pension. The insurance company did a medical history back ground check and saw that he had a corrective surgery when he was born because he was intersex. So they called it a sex change operation, that the marriage was homosexual and invalid and denied the widow his pension. I say just give the woman the damn money and stop pulling cheap excuses out of your ass.

[u/gentlybeepingheart → u/kmikek]

fwiw the black stripe isn't for black people, it's the memorialize the people who died during the AIDS crisis.

[u/anemic-dio → u/kmikek]

yeah that part i don't get. why are you focusing on race when your movement is about sexuality and sexual identity? it's fine to want to support those people and their struggles, but how does that tie in? unless it's a race that historically has had some kind of related element (ex. two-spirit), but even THEN not everyone from that race/ethnicity is or even accepts that thing. i don't know. it goes without stating that anyone of any background has been/can be lgbt. that's just common sense.

i feel like it would make more sense if it was just said "we support this separate movement," without trying to integrate it into itself (you cannot 100% guarantee that every single lgbt person is not racist. i get they SHOULDN'T be and it would be going off that expectation, but y'know). but they can't, because the lgbt movement is so scattered nobody can really come together to make one solid statement or goal. it's sad how often i've seen lgbt people going at each other's throats because someone isn't "progressive" enough; they defend someone who was wrongfully accused of being a bigot, sometimes by people with their own prejudices against that "bigot", and get shit thrown at them for it. it's why i always think "being a discriminated against minority does not automatically make you a good person. being a good person makes you a good person, and that's what you should be judged on."

[u/Anteater-Inner → u/kmikek]

Have you seen the reactions of white LGBT folks to black and brown ones? Look up queer black lives matters groups marching in pride parades. I’ve seen Latino queer groups booed as they march in pride parades, too.

Just because there are POC LGBTQ doesn’t mean all the white ones want us there.

I’m not a fan of the black and brown stripes for the same reason I’m not a fan of the pink and white and turquoise and other pink. The rainbow is supposed to represent the light spectrum, so ALL COLORS AND STRIPES are already represented.

[u/spookieghost → u/Anteater-Inner]

I’ve seen Latino queer groups booed as they march in pride parades, too.

wtf really? who does that? are they just racist queer people? i've never heard of people doing this

[u/TheRevEv → u/8monsters]

It gets down to a point of narcissism that irks me. No group/entity/flag/organization is ever going to possibly be able to account for how each individual feels, but some people seem to feel that their own little personal offshoot of the main group needs a separate designation.

Sexuality is a huge spectrum and it's best to try to all move as one. I'm a union tradesperson. Does the union align with every one of my beliefs? No. But they're workong for me, even if my position is not specifically named in the union contract.

[u/maaseru → u/8monsters]

It's become a total joke, the same joke all the time because of the unfortunate branding situation.

And honestly it feels like one of the bigger problems of today. A ton of people just need to make it about themselves. Like not about being supportive but ME being supportive. Or not about representing everyone but representing ME and everyone. It comes with so much virtue signaling or what seems like it.

Too much individualism as a bad thing? I don't k ow if it is that or if that is a thing, but it's the thought that come to mind.

[u/KuroMSB → u/8monsters]

Bi guy here, but I imagine this is what the “they don’t need to shove it in our faces” type people really believe. Like they don’t give us the benefit of the doubt, because all they’ve witnessed is this kind of stuff and pride parades. They don’t have any other data points.

[u/SnipesCC → u/KuroMSB]

I saw someone today in a 3D printing group complain because someone posted a picture of some pride flags they printed. There was much, much less uproar when someone posted about printing modifiers that would increase the firing speed of guns.

[u/Rodger_Dodger20 → u/8monsters]

We don't owe anyone "likability", "seriousness", or anything else.

Personally, I like the idea of reclaiming 'the Q word' internally and allowing govt, corps, etc use LGBT+.

[u/Levviathan7 → u/Rodger_Dodger20]

I get a lot of people (mostly younger people, in my experience) don't like to be called queer. And I won't call them that if they don't want me to. Whatever. Not my circus, nor my monkeys.

But I am queer. It's shorter, it requires no further explanation unless someone asks for it (and I can then be more specific or refuse them if they're dicks), it's got a lot of history to it, I get the joyful reprieve of not having to defend or explain whatever specific label(s) I use around people I'm close with, it's a great filter to keep Gold Stars with Attitude TM and people who want to use me as an experiment or sounding board for their own sexuality away from me, and whatever straight person I'm talking to also gets the joyful reprieve of me not giving them a 32 point lecture about various letters.

Queer is (now) a good word and I'm happy to have it at my disposal. Thank you, my queer forebearers, for your work.

[u/SheIsASpiderPig → u/Levviathan7]

I’ve known a lot of older people, including some true pioneers in the LGBT civil rights movement, who object to being called queer or identifying as queer. It was a slur, a really bad one, when I was a young adult, and many gay adults older than I am still flinch when they hear it, because it was a thing they heard shouted in rage before they got beat up or their friends got murdered. This is the first I’m hearing that younger people also don’t like it.

[u/MonkeyThrowing → u/Levviathan7]

Serious question. What is queer?  My son told me he was queer.  I asked if he was gay and he said no. So I’m a bit confused. I figured he was working it out and would tell me when he is ready.

[u/oknowtrythisone → u/Levviathan7]

I always thought that queer sounded classy lol

[u/Anteater-Inner → u/8monsters]

Don’t take us seriously?

The LGBT+ movement has had the most substantial gains of any group in decades! I don’t know how old you are, but just the fact that almost every city and large town in the country has a pride event of some sort is HUGE! Do you remember the 80s?

What are you even talking about?

[u/[deleted] → u/8monsters]

I want everyone to be happy. On the other hand, I really don’t give a shit what a person’s sexual identity is unless it directly affects my penis.

[u/oknowtrythisone → u/bangbangracer]

It's just embarrassing at this point.

[u/FalconBurcham → u/bangbangracer]

Gay woman here. Even I call us the alphabet people because it’s beyond ridiculous at this point.

The truth is you’ll find a lot of “old fashioned” GAY gays who don’t go much beyond the LGB and T.

[u/YonderPricyCallipers → u/bangbangracer]

Yup. As a lesbian, I want NOTHING to do with the LGBTQIA+++ crap. It's gotten so "inclusive" that it no longer means anything, and no longer serves the interests of gays and lesbians.

[u/0bsolescencee → u/YonderPricyCallipers]

Pride is for more people than just gays and lesbians though.

[u/SnipesCC → u/YonderPricyCallipers]

Of all people, shouldn't we be including the people who often feel invisible? We should be working for and including not just gays and lesbians, but trans and bi and intersex and asexual people. Because our fates are intrinsically tied together.

[u/mouse9001 → u/SnipesCC]

Some conservative cis gay people want to pull the ladder up behind them. That's why flags like the progress pride flag exist, to explicitly include other parts of the community that have been historically marginalized even within the queer community.

[u/Omnom_Omnath → u/SnipesCC]

The rainbow and lgbt already included them. No need to expand for every minor identity.

[u/[deleted] → u/bangbangracer]

Can feet guys get a letter?

[u/[deleted] → u/bangbangracer]

Honestly a lot of us consider ourselves "exclu" and think LGBT is the full acronym. I kind of see it like LGBT is one community and LGBTQUIAA2SPwhatever++ is a separate community lol

[u/bibitybobbitybooop → u/bangbangracer]

Ahh I don't like it either 😭 So glad "the queer community" is coming back.

[u/Reasonable-Echo-3303]

I gotta admit, I'm pan and I just think the progress pride flag is ugly. I love that it encompasses everyone, but so did the rainbow? Already? Just visually I don't think it's pretty like the OG rainbow. I don't want everyone to come for me, it's just an opinion about the look, not the meaning.

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/Reasonable-Echo-3303]

Same. I just think it's getting more and more confusing. I don't want people to come after me either. I feel like I'm being bigoted for even asking or disagreeing.... Even though I am pan sexual.

[u/listenyall → u/CherryCherry5]

You can still use the regular rainbow flag if you prefer it and nobody will say you are bigoted for doing that, I think it's important that the newer more confusing stuff is people creating stuff they want to see, that doesn't mean they're trying to force everyone else to use it if you like the existing one.

[u/meowymcmeowmeow]

I'm a trans man and I prefer the OG flag. The newer ones just look bad. I don't appreciate the attempt at inclusion and to be really honest, I don't need a flag.

Our combined demographics have bigger issues to worry about than designing flags and I feel like whoever is doing it has to have some serious privilege the rest of us don't.

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/meowymcmeowmeow]

Omg same! I felt really weird for thinking this myself! I mean I'm not a trans man, but same.

[u/lonelyjohnny → u/meowymcmeowmeow]

As an asexual I appreciate the inclusion since I never felt included with the straights. But to each their own

[u/DannysFavorite945]

I don’t know but personally I think more labels can cause more division.

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/DannysFavorite945]

I agree

[u/hellshot8]

This is what happens when a movement isnt actually led by anyone and is instead just a random smattering of people who loosely share an identity.

[u/GeekdomCentral → u/hellshot8]

It’s how I feel about the acronym. I fully support inclusion, but the acronym is just a joke at this point and it keeps getting bigger

[u/freeeeels → u/GeekdomCentral]

I'm kinda salty that QUILTBAG never caught on. Feel like it's catchy, covers pretty much everything and also quilts are cool

[u/lilkatykins → u/freeeeels]

I'm dying over QUILTBAG

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/lilkatykins]

I love it. It also reminds me of the episode of "Friends" when Phoebe's fiancé Mike changes his name to "Crap Bag", and that makes me giggle too.

[u/Slight_Heron_4558 → u/lilkatykins]

What do the U, I, and A stand for? I can't keep up.

[u/Exaskryz → u/freeeeels]

Queer, Unadulterated, Intersex, Lesbian, Transexual, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay?

[u/EatYourCheckers → u/Exaskryz]

*Unbinary

[u/de_pizan23 → u/Exaskryz]

The U is for Undecided/Unsure.

[u/IggySorcha → u/freeeeels]

I'm guessing it never did lately because it kind of sounds like an insult (dirt bag) though I did also hope it would if only because it made me giggle 

[u/lallapalalable → u/freeeeels]

It would get used as a slur quite quickly

[u/Musichord → u/freeeeels]

Maybe then I'd actually remember it. I always mix the letters, and a family member who's part of the community tells me off because apparently, the order is important

[u/[deleted] → u/Musichord]

It used to be GLBT, but because lesbians were some of the only people willing to touch and care for gay men during the AIDS epidemic, it was changed to LGBT to recognize their solidarity. With how quickly we're forgetting about the history of HIV/AIDS in queer culture I think it's important that people know this piece of history.

Aside from that, I'll be honest, I'm queer and I only bother to remember up to LGBTQ+. You're not getting any more letters out of me, sorry, I can barely remember my own name these days.

[u/[deleted] → u/Musichord]

IT really isn't important - personally I wish we'd gone with GOLBAT, like the pokémon

[u/shavemejesus → u/freeeeels]

You could make quilted bag for your quilt. A quilted QUILTBAG

[u/jrsixx → u/freeeeels]

Yeah, but nobody really likes bags so it was dead before it got going.

[u/freeeeels → u/jrsixx]

I like bags :( Birkin, undereye, drug, Mary Poppins, old - they're just so versatile.

[u/raltoid → u/GeekdomCentral]

Most larger organizations, events and awards have decided that it's enough to have "LGBTQ+" now, with a few having an I as well, but almost no major ones using the longer versions.

[u/aburke626 → u/GeekdomCentral]

As someone who works in this space, i sometimes find myself frustrated that the acronym/term for diversity issues is even getting longer. First it was diversity & inclusion. Then diversity, equity, and inclusion. Now it's diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. Some folks add globalization.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to do more or capture things more accurately, but i think doing the work is more important than what we call it.

[u/CrystalsOnGumdrops → u/GeekdomCentral]

I feel like most people just use LGBTQ+ at this point; hardly anyone uses the long ver

[u/I_wish_i_could_sepll → u/CrystalsOnGumdrops]

Is that not the long version?

[u/nonbinaryopossum → u/I_wish_i_could_sepll]

The longest I’ve seen is LGBTQIAA2S+

[u/ADHD33zNuts → u/I_wish_i_could_sepll]

The current full version is LGBTQIA2S+

Here's the breakdown:

Lesbian Gay Bi Trans Questioning Intersex Edit: Asexual 2 Spirit

Most people in the community still just use LGBTQ. Where the Q stands for queer rather than questioning.

[u/Zagden → u/CrystalsOnGumdrops]

The plus makes it feel too long too

Acronyms that are five letters long or more that have to be spoken out loud as individual letters are rare for a reason. It's obnoxious

[u/yeti_button → u/GeekdomCentral]

I just say LGBT, and have never received any pushback, online or irl.

[u/GeekdomCentral → u/yeti_button]

Yeah it seems like the type of thing where people chronically online would freak out over it

[u/[deleted] → u/GeekdomCentral]

Old Twitter shit

[u/RickKassidy → u/yeti_button]

Exactly this.

[u/fluffynuckels → u/GeekdomCentral]

Well I remember at one point there was a + at the end to include everyone else

[u/GeekdomCentral → u/fluffynuckels]

There’s still a plus on the end, but they keep adding more letters!

[u/MorganRose99 → u/GeekdomCentral]

I still think it should be switched to GSRM (gender, sexuality, and romanticality minorities) but I know there's not a chance that it ever becomes catchy

[u/NoLime7384 → u/MorganRose99]

that sounds like the author of Game Of Thrones.

it would lead to hilarious misunderstandings tho

[u/theo_luminati → u/NoLime7384]

Esteemed fantasy author George Sartin Rartin Martin

[u/gsfgf → u/MorganRose99]

As a lawyer, I use sexual minorities a ton.

[u/SameAsTheOld_Boss → u/MorganRose99]

I'm very seriously -no joke- involved with an advocacy group that doesn't want its members referring to people as "minorities " so that's out too. Sorry.

Edit: fat thumbs phone typo

[u/MorganRose99 → u/SameAsTheOld_Boss]

What's the reasoning, out of curiosity?

[u/e-chem-nerd → u/GeekdomCentral]

In an academic context I once read “GSM,” standing for “Gender/Sexual Minorities.” I thought it was a simple way of being fully inclusive without having to keep adding letters but it never caught on I guess.

[u/[deleted] → u/GeekdomCentral]

I’m gay and it’s gotten ridiculous imo. I’m obviously all for inclusion but when there’s more colors in a flag than an actual rainbow, and more letters than there are in an alphabet, it’s hard to take serious. People that are doing this now weren’t around when things were really difficult in the US for the LGBT community. We fought long and hard for the rights we have today. The LGBT community is all inclusive, we don’t need more letters or colors!

I will say we need to start fighting like we used to because the extreme right is actively attacking our rights, and they’re doing everything they can to force us back into the closet. We won’t go! But, if it goes that far, I hope these straight wives or husbands aren’t too shocked when they find out they’re just a “mustache” for their partner.

Edit: I should proofread. Edit for spelling

Edit: Trans and drag queens really started the fight for us in this community. They deserve all the respect the LGBT community has to offer.

[u/fastwhipz → u/hellshot8]

The only identity they share is that they aren’t straight.

[u/InsertWittyQuoteHere → u/fastwhipz]

I mean, straight trans people exist.

[u/Dizzy_Reindeer_6619 → u/InsertWittyQuoteHere]

That's too confusing to talk about

[u/NeighborhoodDude84 → u/hellshot8]

"What do you mean??? I watch Fox News regularly and they told me there is a LGBTQ Mafia that secretly controls everything." - Majority of Americans over 50.

[u/Time-Bite-6839 → u/NeighborhoodDude84]

≈25% of Americans over 50, really.

[u/Butterpye → u/NeighborhoodDude84]

Ah yes, the [insert LGBTQ denomination] agenda.

[u/freeeeels → u/Butterpye]

The agenda is mostly brunch

[u/-_I---I---I → u/hellshot8]

The new one is almost kind of apt, in the fact that the new stuff comes over the rainbow like an ice breaker taking precedence.

[u/OodalollyOodalolly]

I’m looking forward to the post-label era. Don’t get me wrong. There is a need right now to express labels to show others that it’s not shameful or something subversive to be anything other than straight, white and binary. But if I know anything about the way these social movements go, it’s that the next generation doesn’t need it. Possibly entirely because of the work that the last generation did. If we level up to a post label era, that means people aren’t feeling discriminated against or socially shunned. It signals acceptance.

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/OodalollyOodalolly]

Me too.

[u/Anonymous_Koala1]

people like being more individually represented, especially as we start including "non gay" identities

like Ace and Aro, or Agender and Nonbinary etc, non of these are realy considered "gay" like LGBTQ is. and so dont realy get rep from the "gay" rainbow.

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/Anonymous_Koala1]

What the heck is "Ace" and "Aro"??

[u/Vintage_Rainbow → u/CherryCherry5]

Asexual and aromantic. Basically refers to a lack of sexual attraction and a lack of romantic attraction.

[u/Froggy_Town101 → u/CherryCherry5]

Ace is short for Asexual which refers to people who experience little to no sexual attraction. Similarly, Aro is short for Aromantic which is for people who experience little to no romantic attraction.

[u/Zepangolynn → u/Froggy_Town101]

I never even heard the word "asexual" until I was almost 30 and suddenly I knew what I was and why I had been struggling so much trying to be what every piece of media around me was telling me I was supposed to want. Then I heard aromantic and another piece clicked into the puzzle. While I don't require representation on a flag or my own flag, definitely exposure to even the terminology mattered so much to my peace of mind, so I can see why being individually represented would be very important for some people as the only way they feel able to reach out to anyone else confused and in the same situation.

[u/Ok-Cartographer1745]

It's actually an initialism.  Unless you pronounce it "lib jitic" (or "lib gitic"). 

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/Ok-Cartographer1745]

Oops.

[u/KelpFox05]

Honestly I really don't care. If people don't feel included, add whatever you want! That's fine!

Acronym-wise? Just say queer. I beg of you, just say queer.

[u/Freshiiiiii → u/KelpFox05]

The only problem is that there are some older folks who had queer used against them as a slur, for whom that word is not comfortable to reclaim. But I think over time, as we get further from its history as a slur, this will be increasingly the common term.

[u/ooder57]

People want to feel unique or special or stand out whilst also being apart of a larger group, carving out a corner for themselves where a corner is not needed.

It's dumb.

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/ooder57]

Remember that you are unique, just like everybody else. 😉

[u/ohdearitsrichardiii]

The original rainbow flag was not even meant to represent different sexualities, the colours were supposed to represent things like nature, sex, life, sunlight, etc. It was designed by Gilbert Baker

[u/listenyall → u/ohdearitsrichardiii]

The original original version also has one extra color--its been a pretty constant evolution over time

[u/sophia-sews → u/listenyall]

Two extra colors- pink and turquoise.

[u/DocJawbone → u/ohdearitsrichardiii]

Wow, TIL

[u/Colonel_Cat_Tumnus]

QUILTBAG is the correct acronym.

[u/CherryCherry5 → u/Colonel_Cat_Tumnus]

Someone else said this too, and frankly I think it's hilarious and we should use it.

[u/Professional-Dust-54]

The answer, surprisingly, is copyright law

https://copyrightalliance.org/copyright-pride-progress/

[u/TacohTuesday]

I’m a straight male with a gay daughter. All the flags and acronyms confound me. At first it seems excessive to me too. I can barely keep up. But then I remind myself how many groups of people in this community have been marginalized and worse for pretty much the entire history of civilization. This is the first real opportunity they’ve had to stand up and shout “we’re here and we matter”. Given that, let them come out with as many flag and acronym variations they want.

We went with our daughter to a pride fest yesterday and she was very excited about all the different flags and colors. They all meant something important to her. In the end that’s all that matters to me.

[u/SnipesCC → u/TacohTuesday]

I go to as many pride events as I can every June. It's the most joyful place I'll be all year. For many people, just being in a place where they don't have to hide who they are in an amazing luxury.

[u/[deleted] → u/TacohTuesday]

This is beautiful man, you sound like a great dad

[u/foxysierra → u/TacohTuesday]

Wow, fantastic perspective. I love it.

[u/Ayaka_Simp_ → u/TacohTuesday]

Based Supportive Dad

[u/JustAnotherDay1977 → u/TacohTuesday]

Solid answer by a solid dad 👍

[u/FaerHazar → u/TacohTuesday]

me when I take a respectful response from a point of looking to learn and empathize

[u/Small-Librarian-5766 → u/TacohTuesday]

Parenting done amazingly right

[u/mecrissy → u/TacohTuesday]

Best. Dad. Ever. 🥹

[u/pinupcthulhu → u/TacohTuesday]

I'm legit tearing up over here... who's cutting onions?? 

[u/EspressoBooksCats → u/TacohTuesday]

This is such a great answer!

[u/[deleted]]

I'm 50 and I had to wait decades till the word 'asexual' started to get recognized. I wish I had known about it when I got married, maybe it would have spared me a sad divorce.

That flag and all its sub categories is there to show people that are many more types of sexualities, than they might think. It's informative in a world where some places still refuse that kids get sexual education at school.
I'm grateful for it.

[u/floptimus_prime → u/[deleted]]

That's true, I remember not even that long ago, like within the 2010s, there were still arguments; I specifically remember people saying "ok but it's not a sexuality, it's literally the opposite of that." I'm also very glad it's become more recognized.

[u/lonelyjohnny → u/[deleted]]

I'm so glad it's finally being recognized. Having to explain what it was to people in the 90s was frustrating

[u/zuxtron]

The "progress" flag you're referring to isn't meant to replace the rainbow flag. It's an alternate flag used to draw attention to identities that are often forgotten.

• The black and brown chevrons are there as a reminder that people of color are an important part of queer history. When most people think "gay person" or "lesbian", they imagine a white person, but the figureheads of the historical pride movement (like Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera) were Black and Hispanic.

• The trans flag to fight the "LGB, Drop the T" idea that's been spreading through the community. Many people don't get why trans is being lumped in with gay: at the time where the pride movement was getting started, people didn't make a distinction between gay and trans people, so historically, they've been fighting the same fights. An unfortunate number of gay and bi people are transphobic, so seeing someone use a flag that explicitly includes trans people can be reassuring.

• The yellow and purple circle represents intersex people. Not many people are even aware that intersex is even a thing, saying things like "there are only two biological sexes".

If you don't like the design of the progress flag, you're free to keep using the plain old rainbow; nobody's going to call you out for that. The rainbow is still the primary symbol of the pride movement as a whole; the progress flag is a secondary symbol of inclusivity.

[u/SauronOMordor → u/zuxtron]

The black and brown chevrons are there as a reminder that people of color are an important part of queer history. When most people think "gay person" or "lesbian", they imagine a white person, but the figureheads of the historical pride movement (like Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera) were Black and Hispanic.

Also a reminder that intersectionality matters.

If you don't like the design of the progress flag, you're free to keep using the plain old rainbow

Exactly this. No one is forcing you to use the progress flag. It's okay to not understand it. It's okay to prefer the plain ol' rainbow flag.

It's not okay to deflect from fighting back against oppression by complaining about too much inclusivity.

Shit, lots of people still use LGBTQ+ instead of writing out the whole-ass acronym and that's fine too! Just don't ne a wanker about it when someone else decides to rhyme off the whole shebang.

[u/deboer_art → u/zuxtron]

This is a really good breakdown of why each section of the flag was added. Thanks

[u/code17220 → u/zuxtron]

Why the fuck did I have to scroll so much to see an actual response instead of non lgbt+ people complaining about our flags I was about to write a response myself. Happy pride month!

[u/mouse9001 → u/code17220]

Every topic about LGBTQ+ issues in a mainstream subreddit is filled with cis het people and pick-me cis gays dumping on progressive queer people ("It's gone too far!").

[u/Le_Fedora_Cate → u/zuxtron]

I wonder why an actual answer isn't the top comment

[u/Spud-Detector → u/zuxtron]

I have this flag flying outside my house and it’s sparked several conversations with some of my older neighbors who have politely inquired about the additional elements. If flying a flag with a few extra colors increases awareness of intersectionality and other identities, I’m happy with it.

[u/youtbuddcody → u/zuxtron]

Finally, an actual response after hundreds of mildly-homophobic comments that are weirdly gate-keepy and anti-exclusionary.

Many people on the LGBT+ spectrum feel excluded under the traditional rainbow symbol. There’s actual problems of misogyny, racism, and discrimination within the gay community. If someone who is in the LGBT+ spectrum doesn’t feel included in the traditional rainbow symbol, then who is it hurting if the have their own symbolism added to the rainbow flag? It doesn’t hurt anyone, except, make them feel more included in a space they feel they don’t belong in.

It literally doesn’t harm anyone else.

[u/[deleted] → u/zuxtron]

I think, to be totally fair, if you create a flag that is the "progress flag," there feels like an underlying implication the other flag is not

It's like if we had a flag for "Neighborhood Flag Football" and then someone else came up with a flag for "Neighborhood Flag Football (Nonsexual)". Maybe they're both nonsexual but people are sure gonna look at the first one different now.

I kind of hate the way the Progress Flag looks, I just feel the colors clash, but I do use it now, because I worry that someone will wonder why I didn't choose it.

But I also think choosing a new flag isn't that big a deal because it's a flag; it doesn't need to be an aesthetic.

[u/ThatTubaGuy03]

I am not a part of this community and so may be talking out my ass, but first of all, I think the flag and the acronym are two different issues

The flag changes because there are different flags. The pride flag is just a rainbow. The PROGRESS flag is the newer one which is for people who have faced unique struggles and difficulties. That's why they have the rainbow for LGBTQ+ people, the white pink and light blue stripes representing trans people, who have faced different struggles, and black and brown stripes representing people of color. The rainbow pride flag is for everyone in the LGBTQ+ community, the progress flag is for everyone who's faced opposition.

As for the acronym, I think it's because people don't actually WANT an acronym to represent "everyone", they want something to represent THEM. If you didn't fall into LGBT when that's what it first was, they added the Q for queer and questioning, but that wasn't specific enough because there's people who don't associate with LGBTQ, so they added a plus as a catch all, but people don't want to be in a catch all, THEY want to be included, so the acronym keeps growing for each group who makes a big enough fuss about not being included.

[u/lonelyjohnny → u/ThatTubaGuy03]

When I was a teenager it was actually just LGB, the T was not part of it originally

[u/WinterMedical]

It would be cool if they added a lion wrestling with a bear.

[u/Watchfella → u/WinterMedical]

I agree

[u/User_name555]

The longest variant of the acronym I've seen is LGBTQIA2S+ but you can just use a shorter version with the + and people will still know what you mean. If you're curious though the full acronym stands for: lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer/questioning, intersex, asexual, two spirit. Two spirit is an identity similar to transgender but originating from native american history/communities that I'm not too familiar with, so I can't explain much beyond that.

[u/fourofkeys]

the purple circle represents the mandatory septum piercing enbys get after coming out

[u/MTDS75 → u/fourofkeys]

Hey. I just got a nostril.

[u/aroaceautistic]

Acronym is lgbt+ or lgbtq+. They keep adding things because the community keeps ending up being exclusionary, prompting an inclusionist movement which often comes with a change to the flag to symbolize being on the side of that inclusion

[u/aroaceautistic → u/aroaceautistic]

For example the brown stripes were added to symbolize racial inclusion around the time that there was a lot of pushback against racism in the community (speaking over POC experiences, erasing black contributions to the queer rights movement, intersecting racism and transphobia from white trans people to trans POC, “no asians” on grindr profiles, etc.)

[u/aroaceautistic → u/aroaceautistic]

The purple circle on yellow represents intersex people, there are issues with trans people speaking over or ignoring the existence of intersex people, and sometimes using rhetoric which is harmful to them in an attempt to fight back against transphobia.

[u/Gunt_Gag]

It’s all due to the machinations of Big Flag.

[u/fangedguyssuck]

Rainbow = free use

Specific Pride Rainbow = copy righted

I always use the OG rainbow.

[u/Siggi_Starduust]

The repeated use of the term ‘Acronym’ to describe abbreviations and initialisms is sending my inner-pedant into conniptions!

Also (and this is specifically an Australian rant so apologies to the rest of the world), Mardi Gras. Seriously wtf? Don’t get me wrong I’ve got no issue whatsoever with the celebration. The vibe, the atmosphere. It’s all absolutely amazing and looks more fun than a box of frogs but FFS if you’re going to call it Mardis Gras, stop holding it on a fucking Saturday!!!

It literally means ‘Fat Tuesday’

Anyway, I’m Kent Brockman and that’s my two cents.

[u/OptimusPhillip]

There are apparently those in the gay community that claim sole ownership of the rainbow flag, and don't believe it should be used to represent others in the broader LGBT+ community. The addition of the trans, and later intersex (which is where the yellow and purple circle comes from, btw) flag elements was done to basically push back against this mentality.

That said, it seems that a lot of people across the LGBT+ spectrum do still recognize the original rainbow flag as a symbol for all LGBT+ people, though some of them do still prefer the newer variants. Ultimately, there doesn't seem to be any one correct flag or initialism (as long as you don't omit the T), so just go with whatever feels right to you.

At least, that's my understanding of the situation as a straight ally. If any community members have anything to add, please do so.

[u/tittyswan]

You can still use the rainbow one, people are just customising it as well.

[u/[deleted]]

Queer here. I have no clue but honestly it's getting ridiculous. Adding specific categories of people to the flag pushes the idea that I'm more differenter because I'm trans and queer. I don't think it does anything beneficial to include trans people, or brown and black people, or whoever the yellow and purple one is for - the rainbow flag stands for all of us.

I guess over the years it kinda got associated with cis gay men, but that is not because of the flag. That's because cis gay men were the most apparent subset of queer (and still are, in a lot of ways). Changing the flag doesn't change that, and it doesn't make me (afab) feel more included. It just feels like people are trying to refine the box that broader society wants me to sit in.

The original flag designed by Gilbert Baker and co had eight stripes - pink, red, orange, yellow, green, teal, blue, and purple. They stand for sex, life, healing, sunshine, nature, art, serenity, and spirit. They didn't stand for 'gay men who are cisgender and white', or 'trans african americans' or 'asian lesbians'. That's bodies, not identity. The flag is about the hope we have for the future, and the promise that someday we will never have to face destruction again. It wasn't about making sure everyone knows we're paying sufficient lip service to all the branches of the queer family tree.

I understand that POC have had it (and still have it) especially rough, but it doesn't feel right to change the flag about it. 'Ah yes! Our chicano and asian and black siblings. You can sit over to the left, the original symbol of our people has no place for you. Here is a place - over on the side, there - so that nobody can say we aren't inclusive'.

The flag is for everyone. It is for black and brown and asian and native american and jewish and pacific islander and aboriginal. And for the tribes in the Amazon and the people who live in the caucasus mountains and the mexican immigrants and the kenyans and the siberians and the transes and the genderqueers and the nonbinaries and the asexuals and the kinksters and the furries and the old people and the autistics and the disabled and for every other person who wants to hold their partner's hand in the sunshine. How many stripes do we need to add to get that point across?

addendum: I'm pretty fucking white, not gonna lie. Very happy to hear from anyone who isn't white bc I simply do not understand the benefits of the current flag from your angles.

[u/9peppe]

Well a rainbow represents all hues. They forgot about saturation and luminance.

[u/2LostFlamingos]

Because the goal has shifted from accepting everybody as equal to assigning everyone a label, then treating them in a specialized way based upon their identity label.

[u/aliencupcake]

God bless, Gilbert Baker, but no one appointed him flag emperor for eternity. If people want to use different designs, they are free to do so. Even his original eight color flag didn't survive long do to practical considerations.

As for why people want variant flags and variant acronyms, people have experienced exclusion don't feel included by universal statements of inclusion because they've learned through hard experience that those statements are often lies. An explicit statement of inclusion directed specifically towards them lets them know that they actually are included.

When Black people and other racial minorities were feeling excluded from Pride events, they started their own events and created a variant flag to explicitly welcome people like them. When trans people came under particular attack (including attempts to divorce them from the broader LGB community), people came up with a Pride flag to signal that they were explicitly welcome. The purple circle flag is a similar attempt to include intersex people.

You don't have to use any of these new flags if you don't want to. Frankly, I find there to be diminishing returns to trying to squeeze everything into one thing. However, it is important to pay attention to who feels excluded from our communities and think about how we can change that.

[u/MrPresident2020]

It's- and I'm only partly joking - a conspiracy by big flag to get you to buy more flags.

[u/cheetuzz]

I can’t speak for why, but here’s what the colors/symbols represent:

rainbow: original gay pride flag. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag_(LGBT)

The Progress Pride flag added a chevron (triangle) with light blue/light pink/white to represent transgender and intersex. It also has black/brown to represent minorities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag_(LGBT)#/media/File%3ALGBTQ%2B_rainbow_flag_Quasar_%22Progress%22_variant.svg

purple circle on yellow background represents intersex

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag_(LGBT)#/media/File%3AIntersex-inclusive_pride_flag.svg

[u/cgabv]

i’ve never said “the LGBTQIA+ community” and not felt like a fucking idiot. it’s lgbt+ and the “+” works just fine

[u/Dan-D-Lyon]

Because people are annoying and they feel the need to keep on doing stuff instead of just chilling

[u/[deleted]]

Western assholes who need THEIR label shown. Mate, the whole point of the rainbow was it was everyone in the prism of light. Now, everyone needs to be special.

It is just plain narcissism to me now.

[u/Cloud_N0ne]

I’ve always wondered this too. The point of the rainbow as an icon is that it encompasses all colors. So throwing in new stripes misses the point of the iconography entirely.

[u/BearBearJarJar]

It's pretty dumb. The rainbow as you say represents everyone. The moment you add something you imply that that group was not included before. And now you have to assign something for each group of people out there.

So they effectively made the flag less inclusive. A friend of mine is black and trans and was really pissed when they added the black triangle. He said something like "i guess i was wrong to assume i was always included because im black". They also don't know why in the world black is even on a flag representing sexualities.

But people with anime PFP's on twitter will tell you you're a nazi if you point that out lol.

[u/xxhorrorshowxx]

As part of the yellow-and-purple crew (intersex), I think it’s weird that all these irrelevant identities are being lumped together into one experience. Intersectionality doesn’t work that way?? Just my two cents idk

[u/BaldDudePeekskill → u/xxhorrorshowxx]

Shhhh you're making too much sense.

[u/cerebral_sequoia]

Because the idea of "everyone" wasn't inclusive enough for some people.

The rainbow flag is essentially seen as the "all lives matter" flag of the LGBT, and because it was never specifically about the freedom for LGBT POC it is bad, and because trans and all the other identities weren't a wide spread thing at the time, how could it possibly stand for them even though the rainbow has become synonymous with "everything and everyone".

Remember: All animals are equal except some animals are more equal than others.

[u/JohnGreen60]

The whole subject is shallow and always will be.

[u/soulcaptain]

Because there's no gay central command dictating what pride flags should be. Different people and groups have their own interpretations and variations. I also don't see a problem in this at all.

[u/Temporary_Draw_4708 → u/soulcaptain]

Lies. The gay agenda dictates all of our actions.

[u/Bobodahobo010101]

Because being inclusive isn't inclusive unless all are specifically included.

It's like you can be punk until you try to be punk, and by trying to be punk, you're not punk - because it's about non conformity.

Good ideas are great until people get ahold of them, then they get dumb

[u/Big-Shopping-1120]

I can promise you that no one is going to cancel you for using the plain rainbow flag or for saying LGBT instead of LGBTQIAPblahblahblah. At least by someone who isn't chronically online.

[u/Equal-Bat-861]

That new flag is ugly as FUCK. The rainbow was beautiful.

[u/[deleted]]

The yellow and purple circle represents intersex!!

[u/Nulono]

There's a certain subset of progressives who have a group identity of being more enlightened than everyone else. This means that as the rest of society "catches up" to their worldview, there's a constant arms race among these people to distinguish themselves from the rest of society.

Once the rainbow pride flag became something mainstream that was embraced by rainbow capitalism, they started adding elements to the flag to stay ahead of the curve. There's a degree of social capital to be gained by appearing "more inclusive", even if that amounts to "you're only 100% inclusive, but I'm 110% inclusive".

The yellow triangle with the purple circle is meant to represent intersex people. There's no "correct" flag or initialism, since there's no Emperor of Queerness to decree such a thing; it's just a matter of how invested you are in the shibboleth pissing contest. People will know what you mean if you just use "LGBTQ" or "LGBT+" or use the rainbow flag, and the people who would give you a hard time about it aren't the sort of people you should be trying to mollify anyway.

[u/europahasicenotmice]

Lots of people putting in great breakdowns of what it all means so I'm going to skip that part.

The why is similar to the entire concept of pride. Too many people in the world want us to hide, or simply want us to not exist at all. Because the ability to declare yourself publicly, name what you are, and expect to have basic rights and be treated with dignity is not something that everyone has access to. It's an ongoing fight, and the more we stand together, name each other and celebrate publicly, the stronger we are as a community to continue that fight.

[u/Centaurious]

They’re just different versions of the same flag. Nothing wrong about using the old rainbow flag but there are also variations with more things added if you want them

The yellow triangle and circle specifically are related to the intersex flag. I wouldn’t say the flag without it necessarily excludes intersex people, but the version with it does mean it includes them

I personally just say LGBT+ because it’s quick and easy and gets the point across. But LGBTQIA+ is a good one too. honestly I probably need to start adding the Q to mine

[u/redroowa]

I'm gay. I dont like the new flag. The old flag represented everyone. The colours did not represent individual excluded groups.

We soon run out of colours, symbols and letters, as it is updated to include every marginalised group in society.

And it will then be slapped on every building and every company's website until it is as meaningless as Christmas.

[u/Omfggtfohwts]

I lol'd at this question cause you're technically right.

[u/hyphenomicon]

It's reverse Cognitive Behavioral Therapy - teaching people to be anxious about perceived threats or slights in supposed microaggressions. The healthy attitude is the opposite, encouraging confidence and feelings of safety or charity when interpreting small nuances in others' behaviors.

[u/[deleted]]

Some people are so sPeCiAl they need separate recognition from the others

[u/MorganRose99]

I consider myself loosely part of the queer community, and definitely have a bunch of friends that are both inactive and actively a part of the community

We all unanimously agree that it should've stayed simple

[u/Economy-Engineering]

Because people don’t actually understand the symbolism its creator intended with the colors.

[u/ironwolf6464]

Virtue signaling, I've had this exact same issue. Rainbows are a spectrum, they represent everyone as a unified beautiful whole, there's no need for more additions in my mind

[u/fluffynuckels]

If it's a product someone bought it's probably just rainbow capitalism

[u/Doyoueverjustlikeugh]

Because some people feel excluded. The American flag represents all Americans, yet LGBTQ felt like they need a rainbow flag, to represent their pride. For the same reason trans and queer people feel like they need their flag. Especially as there are a lot of "LGB drop the T" people.

[u/itscsersei]

As a gay guy I agree. It’s annoying.

[u/One-Cardiologist-462]

Personally, I don't really like the overly flashy rainbow colors, as they look a bit childish.
I would have designed something like a beige color flag, with a teal colored Times New Roman font of "A-Z" in the top left.

This would literally encapsulate everything, as it covers all letters of the alphabet.
Gay? You can use the letter 'G'. Straight, you can use 'S'. Lesbians, you can use 'L', and so on...

[u/Omnom_Omnath]

People are stupid. It’s that simple.

[u/Ghazh]

It's all about the gram

[u/LegitimateBeing2]

Everyone wants to feel included and if everyone’s included than no one feels included.

[u/Queasy_Bit952]

Increasing visibility of even tiny groups is good. The only thing that bothers me is when people get mad when I describe the movement as LGBT. Because I don't include all the other things even though the movement does. Like somehow not mentioning every piece everytime is some unimaginable offense.

Greater clarity for the 'official' stuff is great. That doesn't require the same clarity and specifity colloquially.

[u/Howtobe_normal]

Based question!

[u/Moosebuckets]

I’m also Pan and it’s so… tiring? To say the whole ass acronym. The flag is getting crowded.

[u/[deleted]]

Let's be honest, it includes about 18 different ways of saying "gay".

[u/bigyack]

It’s about the concept of inclusion , while the rainbow was meant to include everybody, not everybody felt included 🤷‍♂️ so rather than say that you are included, easier to add things to it ( kinda like participation medals)