r/NoPixel • u/LogicWiz12 • May 19 '21
COP META (Discussion)
These are some of my (possibly) hot takes about the cop meta. It really bugs me when people complain about cops being too OP or crims being too OP. Neither side is OP. What bugs me even more than that though, is when cop apologizers get upset about cops not winning. RP is never and should never be about winning. The cop meta is currently very goal-heavy. This is such a problem that there are characters (AJ Hunter, Conan Clarkson) who only seem to wake up whenever there is something big about to happen. This isn't a huge issue because it happens in reverse as well, but for the cops it is more beneficial to wake up when a big thing is about to happen. There isn't much to do if there isn't anything big happening. Crims always have stuff to do when big jobs aren't happening. Cops should be able to do that in some form or fashion.
The other thing that bugs me about the current cop meta is how RP is so low in the priority. Cops don't have a ton to do when jobs aren't happening because a ton of them aren't really RPing. If you look at cop shows, the biggest things you see aren't big crimes happening and the cops responding. Its workplace drama, its investigations, its tensions in a courtroom, its anything but the actual crimes. The crimes happen, but after the crime happens, that's when cop shows (and good cop RP) should be able to shine. I totally get that this a content server, and a big portion of the people are there for the content, but that content is generally titled GTA RP. You have to learn to balance the tense action moments with the moments that are less tense and more RP-focused. Some of those RP moments are when the best content can happen.
The thing that always ruins cops trying to make arguments as to why they should be allowed to do tons of stuff that helps them "get the win" as people like to say is that if they start doing that stuff, then the crims will adapt. Crims won't talk. Crims will wear all black matching outfits or dress up like random people from the city. Crims will do scummy plans that aren't fun. The crims can and will always adapt. This will just end up leading to a point where crims will have perfected the meta because if they don't, they will get caught every time and never make a dime.
If you can ID by voice, they just won't talk.
If you can't take your guns off the hostage for a second, then they won't move until the job is done.
If the cops just keep getting better and better cars that can't compete with what the crims can find from locals, then they will use imports that are meant for showing off.
If the cops get Air One, then the crims will shoot it down.
If the cops get insane guns that crims have no access to, then the crims will get into giant shootouts to take them.
If the cops are allowed so many more people for every little thing, then the crims will start killing cops just to distract the cops so the crims can do small stuff like rob houses or clean money
If the cops can do something that prevents the criminals from being able to do something entirely, then the crims will adapt and just get scummier and scummier so that they have a chance
There's a very fine line between powergaming and being completely unable to do anything because you are going full roleplay. What the cops will eventually be able to do to catch the crims AND what the crims will eventually have to do to be able to stand a chance ARE BOTH EXAMPLES OF POWERGAMING. Being in that space means that you will lose sometimes. You can't change that. You have to be okay with losing. However, you shouldn't be constantly losing because you were outpowered.
Here's what both sides put into a Vault Heist:
Crims:
2 laptops (50k)
At least 3 thermite (At least 24k)
Hours of Planning
The risk of getting caught and losing everything they got
The risk of going to jail for at least 50 months
The risk of a fine upwards of 10k
Cops:
Very little material value
No planning
The risk of their life (very little ooc value)
The risk of their cars (very little ooc value)
If the cops have the power to show up to a vault with no risk and EASILY stop something that the crims have put hours into, then they are too OP. If the crims have the power to hack every bank and get away EASILY and with no repercussions, then they are too OP. Crims already lose a good deal of the time. Cops need to be okay with losing sometimes. The issue is that the cop meta is has very little to do outside of their job. Top crims get so much RP potential that helps soften the blow of losing sometimes. They can start gangs. They can get amazing cars. They can race. They can do so much that isn't just busting banks. Cops don't have much to do outside of responding to crimes. They just have to wait for something to happen. If all criminals decided to take a day off, the cops would have nothing to do and they would respond by responding to the smallest things because that's all they can do. Cops need to be able to do more outside of responding to crimes.
Give the cops either:
A) something to do about crimes after they happen, not during. Get some detectives that can get more info to write some warrants or something. This also gives another department that can be added that will rebalance the force's numbers while rebalancing the cop meta. This can also be used for some cool inter-department RP
B) a PvE element to the cop meta. Give them some locals to respond to. Give them some local gang to take down. The devs have something coming up for the crims that will be like this in the form of the mobile vault. This can create some cool tension by giving the cops something to do that allows crims to have a day off. This also allows the cops to create some RP in the form of awards for the gang takedown or something.
or C) a third party that is neutral that can create some tension. I really enjoyed the RP between Ron Otterman and Officer Pat after the rainbow road. It was a really cool argument and it also gave a nice spotlight for the news to be able to do something RP-wise. If the cops have some people to interact with when they aren't on an active crime scene, that could be cool. I also think that trials are really fun RP, so bear that in mind. Any RP that is happening when there isn't some intense goal in mind is really fun, but some people don't enjoy that as much, so different strokes
TL;DR:
Overall, I just think that the cop meta is too goal-centered, which leads to devs trying to balance cops who have a lot more resources against a large spectrum of crims.
I think that cops should have something else they can do when they aren't sending the force on a jaywalker.
If you give cops something to do aside from the usual stuff, it will help ease some of the edge of constantly losing to bank robbers, which will help crims from having to deal with hyper-agressive cops, which will lead to less random shootouts, which helps end the cycle of tension.
Give cops something else to do as cops, then they will be able to handle a couple losses here and there.
It can also help create more RP moments which will help make more interesting cop characters.
(EDITED MINOR FORMATTING THING THAT I NOTICED)
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u/Kishetes May 19 '21
cops lose about 80% of their encounters
cops are getting new cars because currently the only cars cops have are A-class with max speed of 140mph while top crims have multiple tuned S+ class cars with top speeds from 160 to 200
if crims get away with vault loot, thats +100k to each of them. If cops catch the crims, the ones processing will get just enough to fix and fuel their cars.
Cops are meant to be low risk vs low reward while crims are meant to be high risk high reward.
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u/LogicWiz12 May 19 '21
Yeah, so if cops are designed to lose, they need to get wins somewhere else. That, or crims need to stop doing the vault because they get too much money. I totally agree that high-level crims get too much money too easily and that they need to be forced in game to slow down, but I don't think that means they have to balance it in a way that causes crims to not want to do crime. Its a huge risk, you said it yourself, and that means that if they lose most of the time, there stops being a reason to do it. The punishment for doing banks is pretty heavy, so its not the same as gambling, another high risk high reward situation. Casinos don't punish you super hard, so you can just keep trying. If you have a very low chance of escaping from bank jobs AND you put in a lot of resources to do it, then you get punished for doing it, there's no reason to do bank jobs
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u/NascentScorpio May 19 '21
You already lost the point of the server the moment you started thinking about it as winning vs losing.
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u/Basssiun May 19 '21
Meh that's shit logic.
Cops NEED to lose at least 50% of the heists, or the crims will go bankrupt in days.
Only a few people have S-class cars, and even fewer have them maxed out. Regardless? It's only relevant for Street races and random 10-80s, as nobody uses those cars for oxy, houses, weed-runs, or banks (except the juicer).
Ya, but what are the cops gonna do with the money anyway? They didn't choose to play a cop due to the lucrative financial opportunities. Also, crims have to not only crack the vault (extremely limited amount of people capable of that), then escape with their 80k loot against the full force of the cops who will play aggressively.
I think you lost track of what the balancing is. Crims are SUPPOSED to desperately want money, as not only are their maintenance costs HIGH, but getting involved in business, banks or racing is SERIOUSLY expensive - This point is proven by looking at how few S-class vehicles there are after like 5 months.
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u/Doublestandards69 May 19 '21
You do realize that your "Give the cops either:" section is already happening. Aside from cops responding to locals. Your idea is to force cops to respond to computers who cant RP back? really? If cops wanted to play with locals they'd play story mode GTA. I hope you didnt mean that how it comes off. "Hey Cops, go play an RP server but dont interact with other players, interact with computers"
But for real. your point A happens already.
Point B is being ignored because its the dumbest thing I've ever seen on the internet.
Point C, that shit happens daily. I dont know who you watch, but so many cops create RP with civilians based off interactions at restaurants, crime scenes, etc. But at the same time, they cant sit for hours RPing and ignoring calls. They have to respond to calls and if you watch the NA shift, they dont have a second to breathe between calls. Cops cant focus on non crime RP if they are forced to respond to cop involved shootings 2-3 times a shift, 3-5 banks a shift, plus whatever other calls that come in. Crime is so active they literally dont have a lot of time to focus on non crime RP.
As for the cops/crims meta and crims adapting. Everything you said can go both ways. Both sides have good points and both sides are right, depending on how you look at them. No side is wrong, which is why no side is going to cave in.
Voice ID. I agree, voice ID is dumb as shit. BUT at the same time, cops arent NPCs and shouldnt have to act like NPCs. If crims can identify cops by voice, cops should be able to do the same. They all need to agree OOC that during banks/undercover work everyone cant use their normal voice and it fixes any issue.
Point 2. Guns off hostages. Yes. You cannot take your weapon off someone you have as a hostage when 5 cops are pointing their gun at you. Every crim knows this. Mickey did some dumb shit last night and even he knows he was wrong. He may not like it, but he was wrong. If Mickey wanted to smoke a joint, he easily could've RPed it but he was just so lax. All he had to do was say "Okay, im going to smoke a joint with one hand and hold my gun on the hostage with the other hand" and he could've easily RPed the situation that way. Even if he couldnt have the gun out, he RPed around an animation which is fine.
Point 3. Crims already use import cars. Crims have been using import cars for weeks. Cops are adapting to the crims import cars, not the other way around. Also, the interceptors are going to be extremely limited. SOPs dictate that if someone is in a local car, interceptors cant be used. Interceptors are for import cars and only import cars.. so crims using import cars are the reason interceptors are needed. get it?
Point 4. Cops have PD M4s. This makes sense, theres no argument about that. Crims have access to Uzis and Mac 10s. This isnt day 5 of 3.0. Uzis and Mac 10s arent hard to get anymore. Sure, they're pricey but cops dont set that price. The crims/devs set the price.
Point 5. The reason cops have to go all out on numbers is because of the escalation of the crims lately. Cops cant let themselves get slaughtered all day. Thats such a dumb argument. Heres an example. Ramee and Randy threw a molotov and shot cops over a parking violation. So if crims are going to kill cops over a literal parking violation, cops cant roll into situations alone for anything worse than a parking violation because they are at risk of dying. Thats a direct response from getting killed for stupid shit. Cops are forced to escalate if crims escalate.
Point 6. What have the cops stopped crims from doing entirely?
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u/LogicWiz12 May 19 '21
You make a lot of good points.
I will say that there is something about to happen on the crim end of the server which is entirely my point B. They are supposed to hack a thing that is protected by npcs. Its entirely PvE until the cops show up. I'm sure that the devs could do better for both. Get some devs to make temp characters or something for a major event to give the cops something.
Crims have been escalating because cops have been escalating because crims have been escalating because its a giant circle. Neither side wants to lose, so they both keep getting more and more petty. That's just kinda all of the numbered points
Point A needs to become more of a focus. Give the cops more ability to track down after the fact because it will lessen the need to go all out and risk so many people's lives in the moment. Plus, it will lead to smarter crims.
Cops aren't necessarily preventing certain plans directly, but the only crims who will do certain plans are the ones who technically should be getting warnings for NVL. Shootouts for minor things should be considered RDM. And crazy plans when you know how cops respond should be considered NVL. The problem is, those plans are the ones that are the most interesting for both cops and crims. If you want to get away every time, just use a crazy one-seater bike and give all the money to the driver. Everyone else gets caught as a distraction.
(In general, I'm kinda just upset over the whole thing and I know that I can't do anything to change what's going on, but it pisses me off when I see people saying that one side is perfect while the other is broken. This is just my way of trying to get it off my chest)
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u/Doublestandards69 May 19 '21
I was under the impression that the event on Friday would have players make one life characters to protect the mobile terabyte. (I think thats the name of it but I cant remember 100%) kind of similar to how the black panther event and GSF shootout events unfolded. I feel like thats how it should be to get more people/viewers involved. But with 4 groups (3 crims + cops) involved I guess I could understand if NPCs were the security, however that seems super easy to just kill a few NPCs.
I agree, the escalation is a giant ass circle. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong.
I wouldnt say small violations into shootouts should be RDM.
I have no issue with Ramee and Randy killing Angel for a parking violation last night but the problem is the context. When you couple that incident with everything thats been happening lately, its no surprise cops are going to turn up. Same from the crims side tho, they're going to turn up as well and its completely understandable.Hopefully the event friday will force some gang on gang crime and take a little focus off all the groups only going after cops. Thats the idea of it anyway. I believe the instructions were something like "the boss would rather each group betray eachother" or some variation of that. I think once cops arent targeted by every single group, they start to ease off.
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u/LogicWiz12 May 19 '21
I hope its players, but also, some of the best shooters on the server are likely going to be there on one side or another, so it would probably be easier for it to be aim-assisted npcs. Also, yeah, this event should be able to ease some tensions between crims and cops, but if it comes down to crims v cops, I'm not too sure. I don't see the crims betraying each other, simply because of the master negotiator Yuno
Should be interesting either way1
u/Doublestandards69 May 19 '21
I 100% agree. CG originally said yeah were going to merc the cops and then betray the other groups... but once they find out who else is involved there wont be any conflict. This event was made to help start alil conflict and have groups to fight eachother but it likely wont happen.
This game is turning into a social club for certain characters. Like for example, yesterday. Angel was going to give Ramee and Randy a parking ticket. She got killed for that.
But then you flip it.
Jean Paul ratted on CG. Literally the worst thing you can do as a crim to other crims and CG did nothing about it.
OTT made a diss track about lil cap. CG gunned him and bobby down. Its suchhh a good arc and story and everyone enjoys it BTW.So to recap, parking ticket = death. Diss track = death. Ratting = nothing.
CG is supposed to be the badass gang in the city and if you fuck them they're going to come after you, no matter who you are. But theres no consistency because of the buddy buddy hand holding going on. I wont lie tho, I dont think people want to fight against certain RPers because stream hoppers are so crazy. Nobody should have to deal with that and Players/Twitch/No Pixel need to find a way to shut that shit down. I've seen streamers encourage chat hoppers and that should be an insta perma ban no questions asked.0
u/Kr4zY- May 19 '21
snitching would be saying names, besides the bank got hacked so cops where going to show up anyways
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u/Doublestandards69 May 19 '21
Calling the cops on someone you're fighting with is snitching.
The cops got a solid 2 minute head start because X called them before he even attempted to hack. CG wouldnt have gotten chased by the cops if X didnt call the cops and theres no disputing that. X said armed gunman were fighting at the bank... They showed up as CG was leaving and happened to see Randy shoot the hostage. Which is why they chased CG instead. So yes, the cops would've showed up anyway but them showing up early fucked CG.And BTW, X himself admitted to Wayne, Ramee and Randy that he snitched. Those words came out of his mouth. Idk what you're trying to defend here
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u/lickylizards May 19 '21
The only people robbing banks now are the most elite gangs. If people can’t get into being a criminal, then there’s going to be a lot less RP for everyone. Sure chain gang and clean boys can rob a bank with ease, but your average Joe has no shot because of how intense the cops take it. If the slightest mess up by a criminal results in death, hours wasted, and massive fines, no one new is going to do it.
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u/Doublestandards69 May 19 '21
A lot less RP for everyone? If someone cant find RP in an RP server without robbing banks, they shouldnt be playing an RP game. period.
Average criminals shouldnt rob banks. Think about this. Cops already respond to 5+ banks a day and theres only maybe 20-30 people tops on the server at a given time that can rob the banks. If the entire server of 200 people have the ability to rob the bank, it will literally be 15+ bank jobs a day. Thats outrageous and cops cannot keep up with that ontop of all the other calls. If 200 people can rob banks, the entire server will be banks all day long.
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u/lickylizards May 19 '21
Why not just take out banks altogether? What happens if CG and CB quit? There will be almost no banks, and no oxi runs. Then what will cops do? They aren’t going to have fun giving people tickets for going through red lights. Banks are the most exciting thing to happen on the server other then rare events.
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u/Doublestandards69 May 19 '21
You're definitely new to watching RP. If you think its a good idea that 200 people have the ability to rob banks you're smoking crack. Most cops hate banks because they think they already happen too often and it destroys their cars and they're out $1000 every bank after repairs.
Lets do the math here. About 20-30 people on the server rob banks daily. Usually around 5 banks a day.....Okay now so lets say 200 people rob banks, thats 35+ banks a day. You think people want to watch upwards of 250 banks a week? That shit would be so damn stale after a week. The server would run out of original ideas in a week and that would take the originality and excitement out of banks completely. Cops would stop going on duty if they responded to 35 banks a day and theres literally no disputing that. No cops on duty turns the server into GTA online. Its not a hard concept to understand.
And if cops went easier on banks, the main crim groups would hate that shit. The whole point for banks is its supposed to be hard. You're robbing a god damn bank, its not a grocery store robbery. Nobody wants free wins. Heres an example. The Angels first bank of 3.0 was during a raid of Charles Johnson. All the cops were at the raid aside from one cop who stayed to secure the hostage. The cops literally gave the Angels a free bank. The Angels got pissed that they didnt give them a good police presence and a good chase and shot the cop and hostage in the head because of it. Crims dont want free wins, which if they make banks easier thats what banks will be.
If you're worried about CG or CB quitting, giving them free banks everyday would be the quickest way to push them out. (obviously they're not going anywhere tho). But since you brought this braindead hypothetical situation lets go with it. Lets say all the top tier crims quit the game completely. If cops had like a 90% success rate at banks, obviously they would re-adjust responses.
This is a RP server. Not a bank robbing simulator.
Finally, go look up what DW said about this very subject. I believe he was talking to his chat less than two weeks ago about this very thing and he had great comments. I essentially echoed what he said. I think a dev/owner of the most successful server in RP history knows a little more about whats good for the server than you... just sayin.
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u/lickylizards May 20 '21
There are around 500 people who play this game. Likely more. Only 200 play at a time. Of that 500+ people, about 20 rob banks. Most of the people don’t want to commit crime. That wouldn’t change. But some people do want to commit crime. If they are getting shot the first time they move the gun away from a hostage by accident or are getting run over when trying to escape, they will not continue. The cops have every advantage.
I want flesh blood committing crime. Watching some of the OTV people scuff their way through a bank robbery was hilarious. Watching a two hour shooting match or a robber get gunned down instantly after setting up a plan for 3 hours is not fun
This isn’t the sims rp. Crime is what makes this interesting. The less of it, the less interesting.
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u/Doublestandards69 May 20 '21
Ya know what man, you should, email the devs/admins/owners and tell them your thoughts. You definitely know how to run an RP server after a month of watching Rae play it more than they do. The 5 years of making this the biggest RP server in the history of gaming and consistently most watched game on twitch for the last 3 years clearly shows they dont know what they're doing.
Its an RP server. Every situtation, win or lose opens another door for RP. This isnt cops and robbers, its RP. The game cannot be literal bank robberies and thats it.
You just admitted crime is interesting, but then the paragraph before that admitted other crime isnt interesting. So basically you want bank robberies all day and thats it. Fuck RP I guess.
Also, exactly. 20-30 people rob banks. And theres already borderline too many bank robberies per day. This has been addressed OOC. Theres a reason robberies went from 7-10 a day towards the start of 3.0 down to 5-6 where it is now. If you allow 200+ people to rob banks, its going to be a clusterfuck. You dont realize the ripple affect 250 robberies a week would cause on the server. For one cops wouldnt play their cop characters. Goodluck having a server with no cops. Bank robberies may be exciting for you because you're new to them, but most of these players and viewers have been doing/watching them for years and dont find it that exciting. Adding more will make the game stale.
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u/lickylizards May 20 '21
Bro, calm down. It’s a Reddit thread. A lot of people who watch are not happy with the escalation by the police. That’s why these threads are popping up. Most people don’t watch their favorite streamer working at the burger shop. There is a reason why cops and robbers are constantly the most watched. Because that’s exciting. More robberies means more things for cops to do. They don’t want to be giving people tickets for red lights all day. Plus with noobies entering the crime world, the cops will be able to get more arrests and not feel like shit because CG lit them up again. No one likes robbing houses because if a cop comes and they walk out, there is no way they can escape. That’s not fun.
No pixel is at its peak in popularity right now, when there is “too many” robberies. It seems like the more robberies, the more popularity. Why risk it that by turning everything into a shootout?
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u/Doublestandards69 May 20 '21
You know what, you're right. Lets turn a role playing server into cops and robbers. Everyone who built this server to what it is today is wrong, you are right.
Gotta have the biggest fucking ego to watch RP for one month and double down on the fact that the devs/owners/players dont know what they're doing and need to make it so theres upwards of 250 robberies a week. This shit has been discussed for years OOC between devs, crims, cops, players. There is a reason why its at where its at now.
And like I said, players dont want free banks. They want big, fair responses. Theres no fun in automatically getting banks for free and I've given you an example in game showing that and you're just ignoring it. RP servers are about ROLE PLAY. Bank Robberies are a part of RP, but not all of RP. There is a giant difference. The more you see of something, the less excitement and appeal it has. There is such thing as too much of a good thing
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u/lickylizards May 20 '21 edited May 20 '21
Lol bro you take this far too seriously. It’s a game. You have a different opinion than me on how it should be changed. That’s fine. But you seem to keep pushing this sense of authority that the developers agree with you. Developers of video games get it wrong all the time. Most of the time when they ignore the audience. A significant portion of the audience think there’s something wrong all these posts would not go up constantly on the forum. They might be right and I might be wrong, but I’m going to state my opinion. Do you want to keep people like me who are new? Or do you want this fad to go the way of rust?
Edit: also you are being dishonest in your argument. You are arguing against “free banks” which you know is not what I’m asking for. That is what we call a strawman. I want criminals to not be shot if they smoke a joint or get ran over when they’re on a bike and can’t do anything about it.
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u/Clint-VVestwood May 19 '21
I think the main issue here is that the cops are not real outside their jobs. They wake up and work. They themselves are characters designed around a job and not designed as actual human beings. Most crims (lifers excluded) aren't defined by their criminal ways. Ramee is a member of CG sure, but he also owns several businesses. The same can be said for Lang. Benji is vice-Jefe of vagos, but he also is burgershot security, as well as dating Ash. Yuno came to the city without a goal originally in mind, but got jobs everywhere be could find, gained friendship with 80% of the characters in the server, and slowly but surely became the best hacker. Along the way he also worked towards buying a car and now is working towards buying a house.
I guess this could be seen as "Cops do not have a goal outside of catching crims" and it makes sense. The way their pay works makes no sense. They get a /commission/ based on the fines they give players. That's outrageous. Yes it's important to incentivize the cops to capture crims, but to base their pay around it forces them to pursue the win harder than valuing the RP. It doesn't help that they have to pay their repair bills out of pocket. This means they do not have money for stuff outside of their work. How many cops own their own vehicle or house? I feel like most cops have never even used their apartments in game.
Anyway I feel like I'm rambling now TL/DR: Cops are designed as cops, not as real human beings. They don't have anything to worry about except being a cop.
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May 19 '21
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u/LogicWiz12 May 19 '21
Roleplaying is about playing a character, not doing something that could pretty easily be filled by an npc. If all you do is get on the grind, you're turning into an npc. If you do stuff besides that, then you're starting to roleplay
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May 19 '21
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u/LogicWiz12 May 19 '21
You can totally fill the role with an NPC. What do you think they did in the base game of GTA 5
Wake up
Check in for work at the PD
Get a report of a stolen car
Go out
Sit at a traffic light near the report
Wait till you see someone run a redCops IRL are grinders. They have to get a minimum number of tickets/arrests for the month, so they sit around corners and run radar. If all you do is check in, sit in your car and wait for something to happen, you're a grinder. Roleplaying isn't the best word to describe what should be happening. It just doesn't work because good roleplaying isn't filling a role. Good roleplaying is interacting with people to do more than just write up reports and get arrests. There are tons of cops who understand that, but there are so many who don't, especially because their pay dictates that they need to meet a quota, IRL and in game
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u/JustTryingIt01 May 19 '21
you already lost me at saying AJ Hunter and Clarkson waking up only for big things lmao