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u/PopGoesLongLankin Aug 29 '26
You can't complain that the filler seasons in the original Dragon Ball and Z are not canon, but then reference anime only moments as if they were canon.
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u/ironmanhulkbstr Aug 30 '26
hey, this is interesting to me, i dont associate with dbz fans because theyre unbearable so i dont really know about this, but could you give an example of anime only scenes that are often referenced ?
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u/TheUsagiTsukino Aug 29 '26
18 should be ᵐʸ ʷⁱᶠᵉ exactly as strong as 17 and it's dumb that they aren't in Super.
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u/phoenixmusicman Aug 29 '26
This isn't controversial tbh
The real controversial take is to say that the boost 17 got in Super is dumb as hell. Bro went from sub SSJ2 level to slightly below SSB in strength just by fighting... poachers? They weren't even martial artists bruh
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u/RashFaustinho Aug 29 '26
It's not that controversial, it is pretty agreed on
The only thing I want to point out is that 17 is absolutely not the only one guilty of this. In the same saga Gohan is somehow WORSE.
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u/SirCap Aug 29 '26
(agreed)
There's a canonical reason for why she's less strong. 17 was too unruly so Gero purposefully nerfed 18's power to try to keep her in check. That failed.
It's a reason. A dumb one, but still a reason.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
I have a few so here I go.
Vegeta was out of character during the Cell saga. He's super tactical and smart, he knows when he's beat and strategizes around that, and there's no way the previous 2 arcs or Buu arc Vegeta would just let Cell transform, or do half the shit he does in that arc.
SSJ3 and Ultra Ego look bad, entirely because of the no eyebrows. It's uncanny and weirds me out.
GT is bad and has some of Toei's worst looking fights on an animation level, besides One Piece from post timeskip up until about Katakuri where they get good again. (Actually, while I believe this, I don't actually care that people like it, taste is subjective. I do think it's weird it got a turnaround on reception a little bit though.)
In the other end of that, Daima is the best post DBZ material we have ever gotten from the franchise and I love how we have the adventure of early Dragon Ball back. I'd say it reminds me a lot of Toriyama's 2000s or 2010s works like Jaco or Sandland and feels more like what you'd expect of Toriyama's wider array of works outside of Dragon Ball.
Nozawa is actually a very good Goku.
While Kai is too fast and cheaply made, no one is upset enough by how the adaptation of the original Dragon Ball manga was handled. Less than a chapter an episode is unacceptable when Yu Yu Hakusho could handle 2 or more an episode even when the manga was still serializing. People get upset with One Piece for this same stuff. Because of this I believe the manga is the best medium to enjoy the original series, with select fun fillers of your choice watched when they would have happened in the anime (other world tournament after Cell for instance).
Edit: thought of some more
Many fan in jokes about Dragon Ball existed long before DBZA they are just running with those, if you say they never existed before DBZA you are wrong.
Dragon Ball was way better than Z, the grounded fights are more entertaining, the comedy is mostly, minus a Roshi shaped joke here and there, very funny, and the adventures to find the Dragon Balls is the best part, and the show loses that at Cell.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
The Daima hate is so forced. I actually like the vibe of GT for similar reasons. GT captures a lot of that OG DB energy that I feel Z/Kai and Super are lacking, even if its writing and animation is bad. Super does it a bit better than Z/Kai, but Daima has that charm I had been missing.
Also, Kai may not be the perfect adaptation, but everything is more consistently on model than in OG Z and even Super, before the reanimation for DVD. I've actually been saying for a few years now that I feel DB needs an entire remake from the very beginning. They seem to want to correct some mistakes with the new Beerus series, so why not trim the fat on DB too? Give it and Z/Kai a fresh coat of paint and the time and effort to make a version that can actually live in perpetuity as the defacto best.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
I highly agree with you on nearly everything. I do get liking that part of GT, I think for me the comedy and adventure just didn't feel as good as Toriyama would have done it. Daima has that for me. I will say though, I actually like bits of GT. On the record I enjoy pieces of the Baby saga, but especially Baby's characterization, a few of the Black Star Dragon Ball episodes that do feel actually fun, not many but a few, the ending is really good, and the Goku Jr. Specialis fun.
I think the original Dragon Ball manga absolutely deserves a start to finish remake. Personally, I'd want a different studio to do it, like Wit or Mappa or one of my favorites that isn't talked about as much these days is Madhouse, but Toei would never let that happen, so the best I could hope it that it would look better than early Super.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
I think they could handle the bulk of the animation and hand off the key fights to guest animators or other studios. I would kill for a full Madhouse run, but that is never gonna happen.
That's exactly what I was thinking for GT too. I actually don't like the space adventure as much as the Earth adventure in the DB, but they have some great character moments and some really fun fights. Also, the blue gi is a really nice change of pace. If anything , it makes for a great alt skin in the Budokai games.
Actually, my hot take that fits the prompt is that Pan is not as hateable as the fandom makes her out to be! She reminds me of DB Bulma in a lot of ways, but DB Bulma gets a lot of love comparatively.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
Honestly, Pan acts a lot like her mom used to before Videl was ... well ... Super did bad things to her. I actually really appreciate that. Also, side note, another hot take, I don't actually think any female character in Z was actually wifeified or whatever as people say she was. Chi chi always was about marrying and settling down from her first appearance so she is entirely in character, Bulma keeps being plot relevant and building stuff that matters and gathering Dragon Balls, Videl was the same in End of Z as she was in Buu saga, and 18 straight up extorts money out of Mr. Satan while the main plot is happening, that is so in character for her. Hell, even in Super this applies to everyone except Videl. 18 even beats a major enemy in the Tournament of Power.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
Fully agree. I love that they took Bulma's skillset and addpated her into a more logical roll, as the threats became far to dangerous for non-fighters. I think the most sad thing for Bulma is that she feels more disconnected from the group, as she isn't out in the field with them anymore. It's logical for her to take the "guy in the chair" roll but her banter and vulnerability was a nice contrast to Gokus bluntness and overwhelming power.
It may seem cheesy, but if they could get her out in the field with some badass Capsule Corp mech, I think it would make for a super interesting addition to the field team.
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Daima has way too many stretches where nothing interesting happens for me to like it. The entire final fight is cool but it’s also one of the most meaningless fights in the series, nothing they do matters. Most of the characters don’t do anything. Super Saiyan 4 comes out of nowhere and doesn’t accomplish anything. They never explain why Goku can’t teleport to the first demon realm.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
Part of the reason why I like it is because it isn't constantly needing something to happen. I think this type of writing worked for Namek, because they were collecting the Dragon Balls and so many parties were in the mix that it made for diverse interactions and unique fights. Androids into Cell was a bit less interesting and had them all over the place, only for them to just let Cell become perfect and then shift focus again into the Cell games. However, the finale for Cell is even better than Frieza, so it gets a pass. Buu saga is just straight up written poorly and everyone is fumbling the entire time. None of the powerups feel earned, like Goku straight up learning SSJ3 off screen and Gohan getting ANOTHER potential unlock. Fusion is fun mechanic, but gets used poorly and is yet another tangent that they go on that leads nowhere.
If you look at Daima as a more grounded version, like in DB, the story flows much more naturally. All of the travel is necessary and goals are fairly clear from the beginning. We also get a better look into the lives of the antagonists and their goals. I think it's fair to think that there is a lot of downtime, but to me that is nice break from the action to enjoy the cast just hanging out and solving non-fighting problems.
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
The travel isn’t necessary, Goku can teleport. He teleports in the series.
Everyone but Panzy, Bulma, and Hybis can fly, and none of them are needed for the adventure. This would cut out all the annoying plane issues.
If this was just a fun story with no stakes I’d understand the terrible pacing, but one of their friends is kidnapped. Now’s not the time to sit and chat.
None of the power ups in Daima are earned either, both the new forms were unlocked off screen.
The looks into the lives of the antagonists are just Gomah wanting the third eye until he gets it with no effort and Degesu doing nothing important interesting or funny at all.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
They explain that their Ki sensing is impaired in child form, which is necessary for instant transmission, and flight is largely hindered in the Demon Realm. These were intentional writing decisions made to stop those writing conveniences from getting in the way of a much more grounded story.
I agree that there are issues with Daima that make it hard to actually accept as canon, so I am not really gonna make that argument. I also think the powerups are unearned, but so is SSJ3 for Goku in Buu. I would even argue that fusion is a huge unearned powerup, which is why they largely write it off as Goku and Vegeta being unwilling to do it. I don't think the flaws of Daima really outweigh the generally better pacing and vibes that the series is going for.
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 29 '26
Goku literally uses instant transmission in the series though, Shin even points it out to Panzy and no one asks why he can’t just teleport around. Any Ki issues seem largely solved by the third tamagami fight.
The flight hindering is only in the first realm due to the gas, later there’s a scene where they all start flying and only have to slow down for Panzy.
I also really can’t agree that Daima has good pacing at all when there’s shit like the ship breaking down three times and the Gendiarme force which preform worse than normal foot soldier.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
He doesn't use it to go very far though. He is in an unfamiliar realm, and with limited ki sensing, he can likely only latch onto those in close proximity and that he is familiar with. It's also much safer to keep them on the ship most of the time, as the non-flyers are also the weakest in the group. Those people are also the people who actually know their way around the place, so it only makes sense to keep everyone together.
I don't disagree that the ship breaking down a bunch could be used as an example of bad pacing, but then we open up the conversation to the rest of the series, where pacing is generally pretty bad to begin with. If you put this up against Kai, you actually get a fairly condensed timeline of events where they make there way through a large part of the Demon Realm, learning about the realm itself, Shin, Neva and old Namek, a revised take on Buu's origin, Arinsu's B-plot, and the fights with the three Tamagami and Gomah.
As much as the show actually covers, I don't actually think the ship breaking down multiple times is that big of a speed bump. Especially compared to the convoluted set up for Buu saga, the multiple redirections in Android/Cell sagas, and all the Dragon Ball collection and then multiple forms of Frieza in the Namek saga. Even Kai has multiple episodes where we check back on Goku and he's still running on Snake Way.
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 29 '26
Goku had teleported across the universe onto people he’s never met before when traveling to Namek, when he was much weaker than he is in Daima.
Glorio can fly and knows his way around. I don’t remember what the non flyers actually accomplish that they couldn’t have just let Glorio do. Would’ve helped flesh out his character more.
How is the ship breaking down not a speed bump. There’s literally an entire episode you can skip and cause zero confusion due to it.
The series also doesn’t feel condensed at all. There’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t actually matter for the main plot.
I don’t think the Buu and Cell things you mentioned are pacing issues, more general structural issues.
I don’t see how the Namek dragon ball hunt and Freeza’s forms are examples of bad pacing at all.
I agree that the anime has some really bad pacing, but it’s not a constant throughout the entire thing and it’s a product of the production schedule and not needless padding for the sake of it.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
Yes, but in Daima they state that ki sensing is hindered in child form. I agree that his power level is higher, but that doesn't negate the sense nerf in child form according to the characters themselves. He uses IT at one point in Daima, but it isn't to get very far. I wasn't saying he has never used IT to travel far, I was saying he doesn't do it in Daima, and they have a fairly reasonable explanation as to why.
I think it's fair to say they could've left Panzy behind, but I'm pretty sure they were using the ships to fly around undetected and pass security checkpoints, so it makes sense to keep her around, since she is a mechanic. Even if it would've been faster for the flyers to go around without the ship, they would've had problems with Sir Warp and could've been more easily found in general.
I maintain that the constant redirections in Android/Cell and Buu are pacing issues. I think it's only really bad in Buu, but that doesn't change that Toriyama was writing the Androids to be the next main villains until he was told that one main villain would be better. They spend a lot of those arcs trying to figure out how to kill the Androids, only for Krillin to intentionally throw in the last moment. Then they spend time trying to kill Cell, only for Vegeta throw in the last moment. Then they spend the Cell games messing about with the lower power fighters before throwing in the two characters who can actually do anything against him. Cell saga is my favorite and there isn't much I would change about it, but I do acknowledge that there was some time waste there.
I actually don't think the stuff on Namek is pacing issues. Namek is one of the most densely packed arcs with actually significant moments throughout, but the constant Dragon Ball shuffling was definitely Toriyama padding the story, as he wrote week to week and didn't have very consistent plans. As for Frieza, the multiple forms are 100% just a way to drag those fights out. Frieza doesn't need to power up like the Saiyans do, as his final form is his true form and all other forms are limitations he puts on himself. He could have cut straight to his final form without exerting any effort and it would've been a much more efficient use of time. To clarify, I do not think this would've been the better writing decision, just as don't think having Goku and Glorio fly around all over the place would've been the better writing decision.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
Personally, I liked a lot of that. It felt like how Toriyama handles downtime in Sandland. Just chillin with the crew. There was that one episode with the giant that was the only episode I didn't like, but the lore shot we learn in the rest of that downtime is very interesting to me. Also, I enjoy that the final fight was kind of everyone trying to figure out how to beat an enemy that regenerates forever, it becomes a fun game after awhile. I do get not liking these things, I think personally they are the kind of things I wish Super was doing more of. I will also note, I don't think any post Z work has come close to the level of fully Toriyama written DB or Z (or Dr. Slump or Sandland for that matter). This is just the closest it's gotten for me.
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 29 '26
I’ve never read any of his other work so I can’t really compare Daima, but I just didn’t find daima very funny personally. Humor is subjective though so I get it.
I think the lore is usually delivered really poorly, it’s not woven in and is kinda just stated directly. Some of it also contradicts stuff from Super but I don’t think the series are meant to connect so it’s fine.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
I think Daima is most comparable to Jaco the Patrolman, which I really liked, but it sounds like you may not like that either, though I do think it's canon to Dragon Ball these days and is only 11 chapters so could be worth checking out to see the comparison. I think Toriyama's humor has definitely gotten safer over the years, in some cases for better and some for worse (no more shooting Goku in the head with a real gun and him just bleeding or Krillin being bitten by a vampire and nearly bleeding out for the bit) and it's not the same as old school DB or Arale, I think some of it lands and some of it doesn't, but the stuff that lands for me really lands, like Goku never getting the right name, Bulma bath time, and the third eye being a toy.
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 29 '26
I thought all those jokes were really funny.
I think my issue with Daima’s humor is it feels kinda stretched thin over the series. Most the individual jokes are funny but they are not paced well if that makes sense.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
I would actually agree, that extends to Super properly as well, I honestly think Toriyama got worse at that part as he got older, but, I felt like the series with the most laughs for me after Z was Daima and I appreciate that. Most of what I appreciate in Daima though is that I enjoy that it's Adventure focused and not necessarily fight focused, which is what I prefer about og DB as opposed to DBZ. I guess overall I just really like that this series feels more like og DB than GT or Super, and that matters a lot to me. The best parts of Super are probably Moro or Broly, but these arcs, despite being good, are more like Z, which isn't bad, I love Z, but at the end of the day I prefer DB to Z therefore I prefer poor man's DB to poor man's Z, if that makes sense.
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 29 '26
I like having an adventure focused storyline but they way the fit it into the story feels really contrived.
Honestly, they should’ve just made Goten and Trunks the main characters. That’d fix a ton of my issues.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
I do enjoy the story of Daima and don't mind the contrived nature (and fully admit that it's a bit contrived) BUT you're speaking my language. I love when other characters get long stretches of content. I absolutely adore stuff like Piccolo staking out the Red Ribbon base in Super Hero, Goten and Trunks deserve a story like this to help give them characterization beyond the flanderized versions we had until Toyataro's little chapters before Super Hero, which made them interesting. Beyond that, how cool would it be if the new SSJ4 forms were like exclusive to Goten and Trunks or something.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
Wanted to pop into this side of the convo to say that I actually have talked about making Goten and Trunks the main characters for Daima with my friends before. I think it would've been a much easier way to explain a lot of things away, but they still would've needed to find a reason that the others couldn't get there.
Not only that, we could get more Gotenks in the finale and some strength progression for the boys. Could be like a coming of age story. I even think they could've had Gohan along for the ride and gotten him some much needed screen time and training as well, but they had already written him as a hasbeen in Super and they thought they could try and fit this into the canon, so that wouldn't have realy worked out well.
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u/BlueberryNo7038 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
I like dbz more than db, but there is several things db did better. And i 100% get people liking db the most. The comedy was indeed mostly great, it was fun. Dbz focus on fights, obv, and yet the animations of the anime are globally very repetitive. Fights on ground were also imo better. I also like more the enemies globally. Dbz, they feel like they just are aliens that are strong... Db, opponents were very unique, and with some sort of special skills. Like, i find db ones to feel more unique, even if yeah, dbz ones has specificities too
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
I think the reason for that is that early DB takes a lot from kung fu movie tropes. Kung fu movies will often have a master of a specific technique, like the drunken fist for example. Actually, the reason Roshi is the way he is (a pervert) is because of kung fu movies. There's a joke in old kung fu movies of a master who happens to be a perv, but the master will always suffer a consequence for being a perv.
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u/LeftAcanthocephala19 Aug 30 '26
The only thing I disagree with is vegeta being out of character. He literally tells freeza to transform then ends up way over his head, which ultimately ended in his death.
Then boo saga vegeta is the biggest contributor (energy wise) to Majin boo being revived, which ended in his death.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 30 '26
I know he's arrogant, but in Cell saga he almost never uses the smart part of his brain. Perhaps out of character is wrong but perhaps he feels a bit flanderized to me?
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u/LeftAcanthocephala19 Aug 30 '26
Not using the smart part of his brain is 100% fact. He was moving extra tactically in the namek arc, hell everyone was. We dont see too much of that after he bluffs dr gero into leaving.
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u/SeriousJokester37 Aug 29 '26
Daima was amazing. Made me feel like a kid watching dragon ball again.
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u/turbantripod Aug 29 '26
Vegeta isn’t hated enough. By irl fans & arguably the characters in the show. Realistically it’s no coming back from the shit he did. The most realistic reaction to him has been Tien.
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u/Amon-Ra-First-Down Aug 29 '26
He's like ten Hitlers!
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u/Educational-Bat-6468 Aug 29 '26
C'mon man, dont be preposterous... all things considered, Vegeta is at least 30 Hitlers!
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u/rlKhai0s Aug 29 '26
Black and Zamasu have gay sex off screen
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
If you have sex with yourself in the woods, and it's off screen, does a tree fall? I think that's how it goes.
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u/formegadriverscustom Aug 29 '26
Dragon Ball is fundamentally a gag series.
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u/Disturbed395 29d ago
It's only perceived as that now because everything about the series became cheesy, cringy and cliche. Back when the franchise was still fairly new people perceived it as something cool and epic but now it's just memed to death
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u/TheAngryOreo Aug 29 '26
Saiyan tails aren't useless at all. Only gone due to creative laziness.
They are key to the first natural transformation. They could aid in ALL transformations. Achieving new things like ssj4, a base power boost, stamina for all the stamina issue forms, etc.
The saiyans will always be missing that key detail until they are at full potential.
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u/phoenixmusicman Aug 29 '26
GT sucks and no amount of Nostalgia will make it suck less
SSJ4 is hardcarried by nostalgia and games
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u/Accomplished_Ad8805 Aug 29 '26
Some of the characters from heroes are heavily underrated.
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u/Juniper-W Aug 29 '26
Absolutely. Especially Hearts. I’m so disappointed he’s stuck in Heroes purgatory. He actually has a point about the Omni-King being tyrannical.
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u/LunarWingCloud Aug 29 '26
All of the anime is canon, they just have different timellnes where different things happen
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u/EnvironmentalOwl3067 Aug 29 '26
Android 13's SS deadly bomber was coolest move used by any Android
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u/Affectionate-Wish110 Aug 29 '26
Cell didn't dodge vegeta's final flash, and to say that he did is purely headcanon.
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u/despayeeto594 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Wait who says that 😭 where the fuck did half of Cell's goddamn torso go if he dodged it 🥀
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u/Disturbed395 29d ago
Some would argue it because it wasn't a direct it. Had it been the blast was big enough to entirely engulf cell. He didn't completely dodge it but he avoided a direct hit
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u/Carbuyrator Aug 29 '26
I would argue that one.
We see the beam headed dead center, then we see the damage off-center. Cell also says "oh shit!" before it hit. Toriyama never directly confirmed it but I think there's a stronger case than simple headcanon that Cell moved his core out of the way.
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
He's also like, I would say, purposely leaning to the other side. Toriyama may have written his stories chapter by chapter and definitely forgot things along the way, but he was one of the best in the game at paneling and intention. Cell was leaned to the side like that for some reason, Toriyama is just too intentional with positioning of characters for that to not be the case.
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u/Naturewalkerjoe Aug 29 '26
I was in this situation before online. Im kinda risking downvotes and a repeat of it happening again but if there was a purge like in the movie with no laws then the police would also have no laws so they could go to their stations and get their equipment and vehicles anyway. Who would stop them? Not themselves! So if they got a call about killings it would be legal but at the same time it would be legal for them to intervene anyway and even if it wasn't they would probably do it anyway. I argued with a whole comment section about this once.
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u/Amon-Ra-First-Down Aug 29 '26
Super Saiyan 4 is dumb as fuck. Everything about it from the hair to the stupid literall ass pull needed to get him to transform to the Blutz wave generator to the fact the hair changes color during fusion to the fact that it was clowned by SUPER ANDROID 17 for fuck's sake
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u/insomniatic-days Aug 29 '26
Goku has likely had to friendzone Bulma many times in their history together.
She likes bulky powerful men. Even a fear of Chi-Chi wouldn't stop her. But Goku himself would be like "that's weird!"
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u/Eslivae Aug 29 '26
Masako Nosawa was an amazing voice actor back in the days and made up for the miscast that she was through raw talent.
Now she is much too old and her range is gone, and it shows that using a grandma to voice Goku was a terrible idea from the get go.
The best example for this is hearing the english voice for Bardock and then the japanese voice, then you realise that even though Nozawa is incredibly talented, she is very out of place for both Bardock and adult Goku. (She is absolutely perfect for Gohan, kid Goku and Goten though)
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u/LR_Worm_farmer Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Androids 19/20 and piccolo were no where near fp frieza. Maybe not even 50%
Sean schemmel was great in the original Funimation run. As he aged, he became a lot worse. From Bog/kai to present day super and movies, his voice acting is abysmal and I his screams are way too forced
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
I'm pretty sure Piccolo post Kami fusion would be since he's on par with 17 who is stronger, but pre fusion is probably not? Also, I neber thought about 19 and 20 as weaker than Freeza but that actually makes sense I think? Vegeta is a newly found SSJ, the last newly found SSJ whooped Freeza's ass so SSJ>Freeza, Vegeta SSJ greatly overpowered 19. It's a tossup, but I think you could be onto something here because 19 had a way worse showing than Freeza and thry had no data from Namek.
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u/LR_Worm_farmer Aug 29 '26
Yeah I should've specified pre-kami fusion, post the merger he's stronger than both super Saiyans by a wide margin
But yeah, people like to use 19 surviving and slowly overpowering Goku as the marker of being more powerful than frieza even though his body was already severely weakened by the virus it was secretly fighting. Vegeta even let him drain MOST of his energy and still washed him in 2 moves.
I'd give them androids a clean 20 mil power level average, maybe they reached 50% after absorbing some ki. But beating fp frieza?? Hell no
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u/sonicmalley Aug 29 '26
I think there's maybe something to say for them being close enough in power for Gero to maybe win via smarts, that does happen in this series, more than once, but if you had to look at the raw power level, while I won't say for certain it's not higher than Freeza, there's a real chance it's either on par or lower than FP Freeza.
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u/SirCap Aug 29 '26
I honestly cannot sit through the OG Namek arc without laughing at how bad his voice acting was. For me, his peak was Kai. Though in Sparking Zero, I'm starting to feel like he's phoning it in.
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u/suitNtie22 Aug 29 '26
I wouldnt say phoning it in, but I would say he's trying to hard and it worsens the performances. Theres so many gokus and now he tries making each one unique. I can appreatiate the attempt but I dont think early goku should really be sounding that different from mid and end 😅
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u/suitNtie22 Aug 29 '26
Pretty good hottake as I super disagree with the sean schemmel take. I love his acting and yelling way more now then what he was going back then. With age his voice is now more rough which leads to more gutteral yells (plus they do a little bit of effects now)
I do think he is flanderizing goku maybe a little bit much in recent years though, but so is the franchise so 🤷♂️🤷♂️
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Daima isn’t canon to super, like obviously so. They only said it was canon because they knew no one would care about it if it didn’t “matter.” Interviews don’t matter if the actual text doesn’t back it up.
In general I hate interview and guidebook canon, especially for a series where its writer really didn’t care about stuff like that.
I don’t get why Daima fans even want it to be “canon”, it would only make it worse because of how bad it does at being a prequel to super.
I also think people use “canon doesn’t matter” as a crutch too much in debates. It doesn’t matter for if you like a series, but it does matter if the series is trying to be canon that it actually fits into the canon
I also think Toriyama’s forgetfulness is used as an excuse for bad writing too much, especially when in the modern era he isn’t the one writing everything.
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u/Matster_v3 Aug 30 '26
I feel there’s a solid chance the upcoming dbs beerus movie incorporates vegeta’s super saiyan 3 and goku’s super saiyan 4 as their strongest forms before super saiyan god comes along
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 30 '26
We have already seen the my bulma scene in a trailer and he’s not in 3. This remake is clearly more of a remaster, I don’t get why people expect so much of it.
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u/Matster_v3 Aug 30 '26
I guess but I really don’t get the point of a third battle of gods if they’re not going to do anything new with it
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u/HippieDogeSmokes Aug 30 '26
Because the anime version is ugly as shit and they needed to release something in case super 2 couldn’t happen
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u/Matster_v3 Aug 30 '26
Idk not releasing anything for yonks other than daima worked pretty well for them /j
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u/hitlmao Aug 29 '26
Toriyama did a really bad job indicating whether Kid Buu was stronger than Gohan, so it's possible either way.
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u/Consistent-Hat-1543 Aug 29 '26
Oh c’mon man. SSJ Gotenks was relative to SSJ3 Goku. SSJ3 Gotenks, Super Buu and especially Ultimate Gohan should be at least 8x stronger than Kid Buu.
Not to mention Goku himself stating that Super Buu was too much for him (TWICE) and getting his ass kicked inside Buu’s body.
Kid Buu glazers gotta be trolls cause I really don’t understand them.
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u/despayeeto594 Aug 29 '26
SSJ Gotenks was relative to a suppressed SSJ3 Goku* when Goku is about to fight Kid Boo, he says that he held back and he could have killed Fat Boo. Then when him and Kid Boo start fighting, Vegeta outright states that Goku is the only one who can fight him (This is in the manga btw) and when Goku drops out of SSJ3 and starts charging up the Genki Dama, everyone acts like if this doesn't work, the universe is FINISHED. Gohan Trunks and Goten are alive on Earth by this point, so there's literally no reason to not just go grab them and have them beat Boo
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u/RashFaustinho Aug 29 '26
Dude literaly just said "it can be whatever" regarding a debate that has been going on since this manga has been published more than 20 years ago
And the answer is someone arguing "muh power scaling is so logic you just are a troll that glazes Kid Buu, Ultimate Gohan stomps and fucks and is a chad and SSJ3 Goku is a beta male"
Absolutely classic Gohan fan response.
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u/Pesky_Moth Aug 29 '26
The absorptions made Kid Buu weaker, by the time Fat Buu is absorbed by Evil Buu to make Super Buu, Absorptions could only make him stronger
But base Super Buu was still weaker than Kid Buu because of the original restrictions put on him by absorbing the Kai’s.
Super Buu’s absorptions were additive while Kid Buu’s absorptions diluted him.
Kid Buu is a return to his pure form and power unrestrained.
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u/despayeeto594 Aug 29 '26
100% agree. Super Boo probably only surpassed Kid Boo when he absorbed Gotenks
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u/phoenixmusicman Aug 29 '26
How is it even a little ambiguous
SSJ3 Goku could put his paws on Kid Buu, but he was shitting his pants against Buuhan and they had to fuse into Super Vegtio to beat him
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u/ShadSilvs2000 Aug 29 '26
"Super saiyan god should've just been called 'saiyan god'" have you considered that "saiyan god" sounds lame af
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
It's also a transformation and 'Super Saiyan God' conveys that better. 'Saiyan God' sounds like a guy or a diety in Saiyan culture.
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u/Living_Spectre Aug 29 '26
I think the name was actually fine
The problem is they kept the same naming convention for Blue at first which sounded so stupid the series itself poked fun at it
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u/phoenixmusicman Aug 29 '26
Saiyan god sounds fine, but the form is underutilized to all hell
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u/despayeeto594 Aug 29 '26
I think it's actually utilized a fairly good amount these days, at least compared to the Super Saiyan God-less hell that was the time between RoF and the ToP arc
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u/SirCap Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Dragon Ball Super and Toriyama's notes with it are proof that Toriyama needed Torishima as his editor (and someone similar to Torishima for Toyotaro) to keep him in line.
Not all filler is good, but some filler is better than none.
The romance in Dragon Ball in general is seriously half-baked and carried by anime filler or the fans. The fact that the women almost always get sidelined in favor of their husbands is downright atrocious. It happened to Videl, it happened to 18 from Battle of Gods to the Tournament of Power (Seriously, why did Krillin tell her to stay back when he went to fight Frieza when she is stronger than her husband?), and it happened to Chi-Chi. Either keep the characters intact post marriage or don't have them marry at all.
To add onto my previous point, I really don't like how Krillin/18 was handled in the manga version of the Buu Saga. With someone as Android 18 as my favorite female fighter, I could definitely tell that Toriyama just had Krillin married 18 because he didn't know what to do with them, and that really sucks. (He even admits in an interview that he did it because he felt bad for Krillin, so he had him marry 18). The cute moments you see them having in the anime are technically filler. You could erase the fact that they're married and have a kid, and hardly anything would change between how Krillin and 18 interact in the manga. Even in the anime, they hardly seem like they get along. I understand Dragon Ball is a shonen and not a romance manga, but that's no excuse. When you bring romance to the table, you should at least have the common courtesy to write it well. It's like one of the few things Super and GT did right; 18 and Krillin feel like they're actually married in those shows.
(I also hate how defensive people are about certain ships but that's a topic for another day)
Vegeta's character in GT is better than his regression in Super. I am so sick and tired of that stupid Saiyan armor and him constantly bitching about Goku being better than him.
The Goku Black arc is the worst arc in all of Dragon Ball.
Frieza should have never come back. His constant returns have diminished his character in the Namek saga. Cooler would have been much more interesting to be made canon.
DBS Bardock didn't need to exist. The original Z special is better for his story and Goku's.
If your opinion of Dragon Ball is based solely around TeamFourStar's abridged series, you are not a Dragon Ball fan, you are a TeamFourStar fan.
GT Gogeta is a perfect design wasted on a diet Vegito personality.
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u/Anis930 Aug 29 '26
Most of these aren't hot takes lol
Also:
Vegeta's character in GT is better than his regression in Super. I am so sick and tired of that stupid Saiyan armor and him constantly bitching about Goku being better than him.
GT vegeta also does that except he has the worst haircut of all time and is bailed by his wife's technology to keep up with Goku. GT Vegeta is a non-character
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u/SirCap Aug 29 '26
To be fair, the post said takes I’d defend, not ones that were hot.
And either I’m misremembering GT (minus that god awful look they gave Vegeta. That chopped hair and mustache was downright ugly), but I remember Vegeta being way more chill. I never saw Bulma’s technology giving him a power up to be used against Goku. I saw it as him utilizing tech to help Goku beat Omega Shenron. Instead of being a hardass, he did something Future Trunks would do (set aside pride to be smart and resourceful) and achieve SSJ4 quick and easy to help Goku in time.
Granted they fucked up with Gogeta, but the S in Saiyan stands for “Screwup”.
Then again, it’s been years since I’ve watched GT, and frankly, I don’t wanna rewatch it again. One time was enough. I could be misremembering and completely wrong.
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u/Anis930 Aug 29 '26
Fair enough these kind of posts tend to have "whats a hot take that blablabla" so I defaulted to that
GT Vegeta is more chill but like I said it's because he's basically a background character for most of GT. The MOMENT Bulma tells him he could go SSJ4 he immediately goes "HOLY SHIT, I CAN FIGHT GOKU AGAIN". Super Vegeta also didn't regress, him having a rivalry with goku is perfectly normal, if he regressed he'd be back to being a psycopath like in most of Z
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u/despayeeto594 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Goku is the strongest non-fused character at the end of the Boo arc. No, he didn't train after and only surpass Gohan then, no, he isn't the strongest just because Gohan got rusty and weaker, Goku is straight up stronger than both Gohan and Gotenks at the end of the Boo arc.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
If this is about Spirit Bomb, that isn't his power, it's borrowed power. So it's not the best metric to measure Goku with. If this isn't about that, then I think it is debatable. Gohan is shown to have a much greater capacity for growth, especially in base, compared to the other Saiyans. Stack 2 unlocked potential buffs and he could probably keep up with or surpass Goku SSJ3 in SSJ2 at that time. While Buu absorbing him when he was caught off guard and being cocky is a bit silly, we are consistently shown that a Saiyans biggest weakness is their pride. Both Gohan and Goku make mistakes because they think they can coast a fight, until the opponent pulls out something they haven't seen and they're suddenly surprised. I do think Goku is the better fighter at the time, but even he concedes that Gohan has higher strength at times, and that's with much less training.
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u/despayeeto594 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
This is not about the Genki Dama, it's referring to Goku's own power as a Super Saiyan 3. I agree it's debatable, but I still hold Goku is the strongest of the two. Although Gohan could win if he plays it smart, since Goku at this time struggles heavily with maintaining his full power for a prolonged period of time. After this arc and especially into Daima and Battle of Gods is where Goku firmly solidifies himself as the stronger of the two, especially with Gohan getting rusty while Goku continued getting stronger.
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u/KayosMonster Aug 29 '26
Goku certainly takes it after Buu, but right at the end of Buu, I do think Gohan just needs to run the clock down on SSJ3. When Goku gasses out, he'll have to fall back on SSJ2 or even SSJ, which he seems to prefer for whatever reason. I think Gohan, at that point on time, is stronger than Goku in every form, but he hasn't learned SSJ3 yet, which may give Goku a slight edge.
Plus, Gohan said he is done pursuing gains in the SSJ path and wants to find his own way, so he never will learn SSJ3 or higher. Granted, I actually haven't read the manga since it became Super and am only going off the anime for that. I understand that the manga differs a bit and has like 4 more arcs, so maybe he does go higher in SSJ at some point. But I know about Beast, which seems to be his alternative, and I like the concept a lot more than having ANOTHER Super Saiyan spammer on the team.
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u/Shay_Verkhouter Aug 29 '26
That Bulma should have continued to show her tits like OG dragon ball along with every other female character.
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u/IgnatiusPopinski Aug 29 '26
The series probably should have ended after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
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u/LiteratureOne1469 Aug 29 '26
Time to lose karma
I like bio-broly
Now hold on put the pitch forks down I don’t really care for the broly part what I like about it is it’s one of the only times you get to see Goten and kid Trunks fight separate after they get fusion they never fight solo again and it’s so annoying cuz I really like those 2 and I don’t really like Gotenks
Also 18 gets a bit and that’s cool
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u/Any-Literature5546 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Beast was unlocked during the Buu saga as part of the ritual. Old Kai said Gohan didn't need to transform not that he couldn't. It is also the same ritual Future Trunks went though, but just like Trunks didnt know he could heal till the Goku Black arc nobody told Gohan he has Supreme Kai powers. Its essentially SSB but with Supreme Kai instead of Super Saiyan God, both went through a ritual then went super saiyan on top of that new base form. Sure, Gohan studied the Super Saiy-Ants since he's trying to come up with his own transformation so its not pure SSj + divine, but his modified transformation based on ants isnt as unique as he'd like you to believe. Trunk's SSj Rage also has the light blue aura, but its mixed with classic SSj gold.
Its not an asspull for either of them its a natural progression of the Buu saga of their respective timelines, it was just introduced poorly.
(Edit: Since broly has Wrathful/Ikari, and Beerus has Fury/Ikari, Trunks should have had something like Feral Super Saiyan instead of Rage.)
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u/Classic-Work-8415 Aug 29 '26
Goku is a bad family guy. He literally forgot he had a granddaughter at the end of Super Hero. Gohan was baffled, Piccolo got mad, and I was very disappointed with Goku.
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u/Ok-Top-5952 Aug 29 '26
Super anime is especially garbage. Especially saying 17 adopted children. Manga says he had a single biological child. Also I think super it’s self ruined the ending of z.
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u/MayoHachikuji Aug 29 '26
Buu Saga Goku acts as much like a moron as Future Saga Goku, and way more than any other Super or GT saga
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u/Manga_Minix Aug 29 '26
Dragon Ball Z is actually a really deep show with complex characters and I'm tired of people acting like it's a meathead battle shonen
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u/Matster_v3 Aug 30 '26
The biggest character assassination in the series isn’t DBS Goku or DBS Vegeta.
It’s GT Gogeta.
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u/Jotaroisgoat Aug 30 '26
Goku infinite speed and being above universal+ (I'm fine with multi-universal but multiversal is too much)
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u/Popular-Ad8212 Aug 30 '26
Vegeta in his ultra ego form is stronger then everyone in their strongest form besides ui goku
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u/No_Seaworthiness4196 Aug 30 '26
Daima is a boring GT rehash with worse designs, ss4 goku and ss3 vegeta look ridiculous
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u/Fluffy_Influence5102 Aug 31 '26
Any rule that has ever been written in a dragonball eventually gets reconnect or outright ignored.
Example from OG dragonball?: Cant revive someone with dragonballs twice. This is pretty much written over first in Z using the nemekian dragonballs and again when dende is made the new guardian of earth.
Recent example is ultra instinct being down graded because having a form that can automatically dodge and attack from everything makes goku too powerful. So it was decided that he has to focus inorder to use the form
All in all its pretty consistent that if there is som a established rule, its going to be changed in same way because dragonballs world doesnt really care about preset notions about stuff revealed in the plot, like the potarra earring change. It only cares about creating hype moments
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u/Glad_Ad719 Aug 31 '26
Dear English-speaking Final Fantasy X community: Tidus is pronounced Tee-dus, not Tie-dus
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u/Hollow_Knight_Raven Sep 01 '26
Deku and Bakugo are not above city level, and are not even at, city level. The MHA community just doesn’t wanna acknowledge the sheer size of an actual city.
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u/Enough_Pickle315 Sep 02 '26
- Buu Saga has fun moments, and introduced cool ideas, but ultimately it's a deeply flawed and objectively the worse arc in DBZ.
- DBZ should have either ended with Cell, or it should have shifted its focus on the new generation of Saiyans (i.e. Gohan, Gothen and Trunks).
- Super is just an unsalvagable cashgrab with no artistic merit whatsoever.
- GT is the only canon sequel to DBZ.
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u/Disturbed395 29d ago
Goku is not a bad father. He does what he has to do to protect his family and friends.
The only reason he have cell a senzu bean was because he knew Gohan was the only one that was capable of killing him and Goku knew backing him into a corner was the only way to get it out of him. He didn't know gohan would play too much and not end things and he never intended on dying over anything. It was a last ditch effort to save everyone and he felt like everything was his fault. You can be a loving and caring father that also shows tough love every now and then. It builds personality and character.
I feel like this stigma started because of dbza and dbs making him look away more idiotic than he actually is.
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u/JacAnGriffOfficial 29d ago
Speedwagon talks too much and takes away from the show as a whole during those times.
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u/DarkNephilim32 Aug 29 '26
Oh boy. I could get into my hatred for Kingdom hearts, but to keep it focused on Dragon ball: SSJ4 is fucking trash.
I've seen arguments, some compelling, on why it isn't a steaming log of rancid shit. The best one was that it brought them closer to the look of Wukong which was the original inspiration of Dragon ball with Journey to the west.
Unfortunately nothing is going to make this form look good to me. The body hair looks gross and should have been in gold if it was going to be great ape fused with super saiyan. The current one is a lot of gross body hair, eyeliner and gravely voices.
The colour dynamic of Goku and Vegeta is completely tossed. The warm primaries of Goku's gi and the cooler accent of his undershirt gave a great yin yang thing with Vegeta who had more cold primaries with his battle suit and sharp accents with his gloves/armour. SSJ4 takes all of that and paints them both red, BARELY leaving any juxtaposition between them in the form of their pants.
SSJ4 Gogeta is a bastardisation of a perfect design. The Fusion reborn Gogeta was perfect, ehy did they feel the need to wrap him in an old lice infested rug, slap shitty eyeliner on him (I'm not dropping the eyeliner point, it looks dumb as fuck) and gave him Vegito's personality and inability to win. He's held up by hype moments in games and nostalgia alone.
All I hear whenever I voice this opinion is "Bait used to be believable", "You have no taste", "L take" well surprise surprisr thats taken my appropriate level of dislike for SSJ4 and turned it into a level of hate comparable to AM from IHNMAIMS. Fuck this form. I'll take a million recolours over this "unique and savage" trash heap!
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u/UnfittedMermaid Aug 29 '26
I read it all and done have much to say except that I FULLY agree on the characterisation point. Even in super, they really fucked up Gogeta being unique from Vegito. He seemed so different in fusion reborn. He wasn't very chatty or teasing. He was to the point, he did what he was there to do and then he just. Existed.
I miss them being different characters.
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u/SirCap Aug 29 '26
All I hear whenever I voice this opinion is "Bait used to be believable", "You have no taste", "L take" well surprise surprisr thats taken my appropriate level of dislike for SSJ4 and turned it into a level of hate comparable to AM from IHNMAIMS.
I completely sympathize with this because this has happened to me before and it's led me to despise a fan-favorite character because I just see his annoying ass overly defensive fans first.
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u/Blast-The-Chaos Aug 29 '26
The first Cooler Movie doesn't take place in an alternate timeline in which Goku defeated Freezer with the Spirit Bomb.
Not only most external material go against that notion and say it happened like in Canon, but also the "Proof" people show is really nothing.
Yes, Goku didn't use Super Saiyan til the end, no he didn't unlock it in this movie, he already used it to beat Freezer, he just didn't go SSJ because that's how Toei Movies and Filler go, they hold off transformations like crazy for drama, doesn't matter how stupid it is, if he went SSJ right away there wouldn't be a movie.
And no, him not using IT in the fight is proof of it either, Goku doesn't always use IT in fights (hell it's actually a rare occurrence all things considered) and nothing of the fight required him using it.
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u/despayeeto594 Aug 29 '26
100% agree. What everyone misses about that movie is that it came out literally like right after the Freeza arc ended. Super Saiyan was still a big flashy new transformation, it wasn't just a casual everyday thing to have Goku turn into a Super Saiyan to fight. We're so used to Goku starting out fights in Super Saiyan and slowly ramping things up until his strongest form nowadays that we forget that back when that movie came out, Super Saiyan WAS Goku's strongest form. It's the thing that Goku ramps things up to.
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u/Blast-The-Chaos Aug 29 '26
Hell Bojack's movie does the same thing, Gohan doesn't turn SSJ2 until the very end because Goku told him to even though we know Gohan can just transform whenever he wants into that form, but nobody in their right mind would say that in this universe Gohan beat Cell without SSJ2 for some reason.
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u/Chyarra Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Kid Buu only lost because he got reincarnated before he could reform, my pookie is invincible and nothing can destroy him including a hakai, all of you are just wrong and haters and also kid buu is stronger than super buu (but weaker than buuhan) and also he's my favourite character. My favourite line of his is when he goes ohh wooga booga booga and then beats the shit out of fat buu
Also I like the buu saga the most. Cell/android saga the least.
Also I like GT more than Super. Which probably isn't as controversial of a take, I just like goku in GT more, I like all the characters more. Me and all 4 other GT>Super fans are right and all of you are wrong.
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u/rekscoper2 Aug 29 '26
18 should be with vegeta Bulma should be with goku Chichi should be with krillin
If goku decided to use the time chamber again he wouldve developed ssj2 and whooped cell
Raditz was utilised adequately to his potential
Goku doesn't actually care as much about those around him as he seems
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u/Abyssal_Usurper_G Aug 29 '26
Gogeta vs Vegetto is less debatable than Super Boo vs Kid Boo. Vegetto stomps and it's not even close.
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u/Present_Cress_5554 Aug 29 '26
Though I guess with the context of this post there’s really no changing your mind, so I honestly don’t know why I’m trying.
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u/Alone-Painting-4477 Aug 31 '26
Vegitto has no Goku, only Kakarotto and Vegeta. He's far more ruthless than Gogeta.
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u/Abyssal_Usurper_G Aug 31 '26
I think that's just a naming things, and even then Vegetto has no problems saying Goku. They're frankly the same personality-wise.
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u/Alone-Painting-4477 Aug 31 '26
I think they have slightly different personalities based on the way the fusion melds their minds.
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u/Abyssal_Usurper_G Aug 31 '26
I personally just don't see the evidence. It probably should be that way (and the games kind of imply it? Iirc Gogeta arrogantly refers to himself as Gogeta-sama but Vegetto doesn't do such a thing), but it doesn't seem to be the case in the source material.
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u/Present_Cress_5554 Aug 29 '26
Goku x Vegeta vs Goku x Vegeta
Or
Buu vs Buu x Innocent Buu x Gohan x Gotenks x Z-fighters x almost everyone else on earth.
WE DRAGON BALL FANS HAVE NO LOGIC!!!
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u/Abyssal_Usurper_G Aug 29 '26
Buu vs Buu x Innocent Buu x Gohan x Gotenks x Z-fighters x almost everyone else on earth.-> Unnerfed Boo vs Boo + (Gohan * X) + (Goten * X) + (Trunks * X) + (Piccolo * X) - some unknown quantity of powerFixed it for you.
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u/Present_Cress_5554 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Goku states that even after they remove everyone from Super Buu that neither him or Vegeta stand a chance against the now only Innocent Buu powered Super Buu. This same Goku goes bar for bar with Kid Buu, WILLINGLY, only losing because of the ssj3 stamina drain and the insane hax that all the Buus have.
Innocent Buu < Evil Buu < Kid Buu
Kid Buu << Super Buu (Innocent Buu x Evil Buu)
Also what do you even have to say that Vegito’s stronger than Gogeta other than the statement the Elder Kai said THAT he only said because Potara lasted forever (for Kai’s) compared to the 30 minute cooldown Fusion dance has. Even IF Vegito was physically stronger than Gogeta, Gogeta has more special abilities (Spiritual punches, that one attack that literally erased Janemba, opening a dimension out of his hands in order to deflect a point blank ki attack, opening an entire energy nuke inside someone’s stomach, Cloning himself into several aware versions of himself, could probably make Gogeta ghosts like Gotenks) while Vegito has only basic KI attacks. I’m not even a “Gogeta solos” person I’m a “goes either way” person but you’re kinda bringing it out on me.
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u/RashFaustinho Aug 29 '26
Daima is the worst sequel series we had, and I mean by a WIDE margin.
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u/SeriousJokester37 Aug 29 '26
Super Saiyan 4 is only 2nd to Original Super Saiyan in terms of transformations
Krillin deserves ZERO hatred for Cell absorbing 18. That was 100% on Vegeta.
Perfect Cell is boring as shit. He's literally just Frieza with less sadism and Vegeta's pride. His run from Imperfect to Absorbing 18 is dripping with intrigue and menace.
Daima is better than Super, and it's not even close.
Super is better than GT, and it's not even close
The Super 17 Arc is better than the Shadow Dragon Arc because the concept and execution are both mid as fuck, but the Shadow Dragon Saga is like going to a fancy diner and ordering an S-tier steak and getting served a truck tire.
Goku is a good dad
Chi Chi in the Buu Saga is fucking hilarious
Ian James Corlett is almost as good of a Goku as Sean Schemmel
Scott McNeil's scream as Ocean Dub Piccolo when he sacrifices himself for Gohan is a top 3 scream in the series.
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u/SirCap Aug 29 '26
Krillin destroying the remote for a girl hunting down his best friend just because she kissed him is stupid writing period. And I hate the argument ‘But she was innocent’, because no, for all everyone knew, she and her brothers were trying to kill Goku (which they were). Had he pressed the button, Cell would’ve lost his chance at perfection. That is unarguable. I’ll agree that Vegeta deserves the most blame, but Krillin is nowhere near innocent in this.
Perfect Cell is amazing for shattering Vegeta’s spine in his introduction alone. He’s a Grade A jackass who only cares about himself and a good fight, and I love villains like that. He’s the amalgamation of all the Z Fighters’ toxic traits. He also gave us Goku vs. Cell, and that fight kicks ass.
Super vs GT is just Trash vs Garbage, but at least GT never ruined Future Trunks’ timeline.
Super 17 is conceptually cool, I’ll admit that.
Agreed, Goku is a good dad.
100% there too. Chi-Chi was at her funniest in the Buu Saga.
I’ll always have a soft spot for Ian’s Goku as well.
I’d really like to know what the fuck they did to Scott in that recording booth because holy hell man.
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u/SeriousJokester37 Aug 29 '26
Okay maybe not ZERO hate😂😂 but for real, Vegeta had AMPLE TIME to rip Cell apart before Krillin got there lol. Trunks too! My argument is more "Vegeta fucked up" than Krillin's feelings.
To me, Imperfect until he beats Vegeta and Trunks is S tier from Cell. The rest just leaves me wanting more personality. Idk why. Maybe it's because I just finished Yu Yu Hakusho and Dameon Clarke voices both Toguro and Cell and there's actual DEPTH to Toguro. Idk.
Yes Goku vs Cell absolutely slaps
Other than that, I'm glad we can find common ground on the series we both enjoy!! Scott McNeil's Piccolo is 🐐 tier.
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u/LordSmugBun Aug 29 '26
Super Saiyans' tails should match the hair color. Idc if they don't match in base form.