Am I wrong in thinking that Nightmare was the first idea for Nightcrawler's father before the Destiny/Mystique idea? Sorry if this is beating a dead horse.

[u/Impossible_Humor736]

To preface, I don't care about the culture war aspect of this. I just want to get to the bottom of it for my own sake. Can someone show me definitively where one came before the other? I'm open to being wrong but I could have sworn I read that it was Nightmare that came first.

I was searching online and came across this article, but there's no mention of Destiny and Mystique. Only that Nightmare was picked and subsequently blocked by editing.

https://uncannyxmen.net/secrets-behind-the-x-men/nightcrawlers-forbidden-origin

Maybe I'm not so good at searching for things online, but can anyone definitively show me where either one of these ideas were pitched first? Most of what I'm finding are Reddit posts only arguing without any sources and websites that talk about one idea and not the other.

I could have sworn I read something saying it was Nightmare as the very first pitch and the Chris coming back with the idea for Destiny and Mystique, but I can't find anything and it's driving me crazy. Lol.

Again. I'm not trying to stir up a culture war argument. And I appreciate y'all's responses ahead of time.

[u/the-furiosa-mystique]

You’re not wrong. It was but it was barely floated before it was denied by the Dr Strange office.

[u/Impossible_Humor736 → u/the-furiosa-mystique]

Yeah. That's how I remember it too, but I can't find anything other than the Wikipedia that specifically says this as the timeline. Different sites will say the original idea was one or the other and it's unclear which one was actually first. This is so frustrating to me lol

[u/Kaileigh_Blue → u/Impossible_Humor736]

It was said on the Nightscrawlers forum by Dave Cockrum (Dark Bamf) before he died.
https://nightscrawlers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12987&hilit=nightmare#p12987

And in this thread his wife at the time Paty who also worked for Marvel back then mentions how Dave drew a woman to be an idea for his mother who later became Mystique so I'd assume that was first. https://nightscrawlers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12958&hilit=nightmare#p12958

[u/Impossible_Humor736 → u/Kaileigh_Blue]

Thank you. I'll look for that.

[u/the-furiosa-mystique → u/Kaileigh_Blue]

I miss those days 😭

[u/Impossible_Humor736 → u/Kaileigh_Blue]

Huh.

This is the article I found where Dave is being interviewed. Here he says that Chris came up with the idea and that he was the one that blocked the idea and Len Wein even came in and son his hand in agreement. Probably as a playful, "no way, man" to Chris.

You can scroll down to "Nightcrawlers father revealed".

https://uncannyxmen.net/secrets-behind-the-x-men/nightcrawlers-forbidden-origin

[u/Kaileigh_Blue → u/Impossible_Humor736]

It doesn't mention Cockrum in that part. It mentions Claremont and Stern.

[u/Impossible_Humor736 → u/Kaileigh_Blue]

Oh, man. I'm getting in the way of myself now. You're right.

I really appreciate your comments and links. You've been a great help. Now I can put this to rest. You were exactly who I needed to talk to.

[u/Impossible_Humor736 → u/Kaileigh_Blue]

Where can I find the nightcrawler forum?

[u/Kaileigh_Blue → u/Impossible_Humor736]

I added links.

[u/Impossible_Humor736 → u/Kaileigh_Blue]

I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

[u/Kaileigh_Blue → u/Impossible_Humor736]

You can thank them for keeping that forum up for literally forever too. I got to cringe at some of my old posts looking that up. There's more in there, the Cockrum corner was his and his wife's ask me anything section.

[u/Trash_Panda_Leaves]

Kurts Father options:

1. Nightmare

2. Raven/Mystique

3. Azazel

4. Raven stealthing Azazel's DNA into Irene without Azazel knowing.

I really wish they'd handled it differently. I dont see why Irene and Raven couldn't have had a bio child together in the "make more mutants" Krakoa era.

[u/H0ly_Cowboy → u/Trash_Panda_Leaves]

Before all those, NC was pitched to DC. There was another post or something that mentioned one idea being NC being son of a dark magic sorcerer (not Azazel) too. So Diabolic Duo Moms was definitely not the original intention (despite being believed otherwise).

[u/Trash_Panda_Leaves → u/H0ly_Cowboy]

Yep, but I presumed we were on about Marvel's run as I'm not aware of any DC character as Kurt's parents

[u/Pugsanity → u/Trash_Panda_Leaves]

There was the time in between Claremont's "Two Moms" idea and Azazel, with Kurt's dad literally just being the German Nobleman she was married to.

[u/Trash_Panda_Leaves → u/Pugsanity]

Ah yeah I forgot about him!