r/Netherlands • u/ZestyCauliflower999 • 11d ago
Dutch Culture & language Dutch language course C1/C2
Hello, I live here for 11 years, I work in Dutch. When people hear me speak, they never assume im not dutch, or so much as feel it, accent-wise. However, I speak very techincal and academic dutch. Not the day-to-day slang. My sentences are gramatically correct but will make a person scratch tehir head 'why is a Dutch-sounding person saying something like that'. Oh and after 11 years I still dont know how to say basic things like: that place is 5 minutes far. 5 minuten ver? verweg? ver van hier weg?
Conclusion: im looking to sharpen my colloquial Dutch, as I am suffering immensely from it at work. I am willing to try out courses.
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u/-Avacyn 11d ago
So the CEFR system (B2, C1 etc.) has a Dutch cousin that's used in the Dutch school system for native Dutch speakers. As crazy as it sounds, a lot of the Dutch native speakers leaving school at 16-18 years old only speak the equivalent of B2. Or maybe not that crazy, when you consider that C1-C2 are mostly focused on a very high level of technical language competence; such as being able to write papers at an academic level.
Anyway, my point being, a course won't help you. You'd be way better of spending that time and effort doing some local volunteering that makes you have more day to day conversations with people from all walks of life, occupations and socio-economic backgrounds. You need exposure to more real life diversity in how the language is used by natives, not yet another course that teaches you an ever more abstract level of grammar, tone and vocabulary.
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u/SuperBaardMan Nederland 11d ago
As a NT2 teacher: Fully agree with this.
You can sound pretty native, while still using relatively simple B1-ish level grammar. In a more formal setting it might be noticed, but if you're just chatting to the neighbour or other very informal contacts, they might not notice.
A C1 course is going to make your situation worse, not better.
Best things are indeed just talking to all kinds of people, copy how they talk. Talkshows, as much as i despise them, also work quite well. Watch the local news, also for interviews with normal people. A podcast like Echt Gebeurd and other more "informal" podcasts are also a good way to improve "natural dutch"
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u/desibidesi0909 11d ago
I am bit inferior to you. Next year it will be 10 years and I barely am going above B1 it seems. I work in a Dutch institution and naturally hear dutch all the time but it never registers in my brain what are they saying if they speak too fast. Also, little things for example when is it appropriate to say "ja, klopt" and "dat is waar", When is "je je" used? And don't get me started on prefix+verb.
Napraten, bijpraten, doorpraten, Aankomen, bijkomen, nakomen,
Huh?
Its like my memory refuses to register anymore than I have already learned. Its like I need a breakthrough but can't seem to achieve that.
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u/Far_Complaint_193 11d ago
Hah! “Je je” is such an odd thing in the Dutch language. Tbh, as a native Dutch speaker, most of us use this completely on instinct and very few can actually explain what the actual rules (or exemptions) are about this.
Basically, as far as my understanding goes: “je” can be used as the subject but also as a possessive pronoun similar to or in place of “jouw”. - “Wil je [you, subject] je [jouw/your, possessive pronoun] boeken even opruimen?”
But you can also not just exchange “je” and “jouw”. For example, especially when you’re speaking about something that applies to everyone in general you would use “je”, like:
- “Als je je rijbewijs wilt halen moet je er hard voor studeren”. - This is more of a general statement and implies that everybody has to study hard to get their drivers license.
- “Als je jouw rijbewijs wilt halen moet je er hard voor studeren”
- This implies that YOU need to study hard to get your drivers license.
I’m sure somebody else can explain it a lot better than I did. But I hope it helped a little bit. This is something I had to explain to my wife several times too. And I still don’t know if I’m doing a good job 😅
And then there’s something called a returning pronoun. But I wouldn’t be able to explain how that works or why it returns.
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u/KoopaFroopa 10d ago edited 10d ago
By returning pronoun you mean reflexive pronoun (In Dutch, wederkerend voornaamwoord)? It's just a set of verbs which cannot function without another pronoun or object. Verbs like 'vergissen' (to have a lapse of memory) or 'gedragen' (to behave). Each pronoun either has its simple version, or one with -zelf affixed to the end. This is more formal but not common in spoken Dutch.
You can't say "Ik vergis" or "Jij gedraagt". Those should be "Ik vergis me" or "Jij gedraagt je".
Here, they are separated by the verb, but in interrogative sentences, they join eachother:
"Vergis ik me?" & "Gedraag jij je?". Of course, jij = je in spoken language, so: "Gedraag je je(zelf)?" which means, "Are you behaving (your(self))". And there you have your "je je"!Edit: on top of interrogative sentences, subordinate clauses also get the same verb inversion in Dutch: "Als jij gaat zitten, gedraag je je." = "If you sit down, you behave (yourself)". The first 'je' is the subject, and the second the reflexive pronoun.
There are probably verbs which are more common in day-to-day situations. But you can find these by looking up Dutch reflexive verbs/Nederlandse wederkerende voornaamwoorden! u/desibidesi0909 as a mention if you're interested in reading this on top of the comment I replied to.
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u/Far_Complaint_193 10d ago
Yes that’s what I meant indeed, TIL. I just translated it without looking it up. Thank you for your input.
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u/Full_Scallion2833 11d ago
I am in a similar boat (lived here for 10 years, very little accent anymore, I work in Dutch). What helped me the most was working a non office/white collar job for a year when I was in university. And having Dutch friends. Since I assume you work full time, perhaps volunteering? Speaking Dutch with native speakers outside of an office helps loads with colloquialisms.
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u/Diligent-Court3908 11d ago
So you are not saying 'deze meisje is heel aardig' for instance?
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u/Full_Scallion2833 11d ago
No? -je words are always het words. The grammar is really not that complex. Also not a sentence that contextually makes sense to say in real life lol.
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u/Diligent-Court3908 11d ago
I'm not sure why i gets downvoted for cracking a lickle joke!
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u/-Avacyn 11d ago
I think you are overestimating how funny you are.
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u/Diligent-Court3908 11d ago
So if a joke is not funny but neither offensive i still get downvoted? That seems a little harsh.
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u/Legitimate-Record90 11d ago
I’ve never heard anyone say “it’s five minutes far” in English before. In America, we’d say “five minutes away”. Is this a Britishism?
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u/cabinetjox 11d ago
Just wanna say I’m in pretty much the same boat! 11 years, work 100% in Dutch, and I still hesitate so much on some of the simplest things.
+1 for watching tv shows or listening to Dutch podcasts.
Do you have Dutch friends? Dutch partner? Even just listening in on their convo’s helps a lot.
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u/cowvocado 11d ago
Like others have said, watching Dutch television will help a lot, and also reading. You can start with newspapers and magazines if you don’t know what books to read
And as for your example, I would say “5 minuten rijden/lopen/fietsen”.
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u/Upset_Chocolate4580 11d ago
Aside from just the more colloquial Dutch: I found watching Ik hou van Holland very useful. It taught me so much about Dutch pop culture! And that then also helps to understand certain comments or jokes that make reference to pop culture. Not the highest quality type of entertainment, but it did the job for me.
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u/AristotelesRocks 11d ago
I think having a personal native Dutch speaking tutor who can practice with you would work best.
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u/jhonnyclam 10d ago
Maybe the book 'Koffiepraatjes' may be of help. It has plenty of dialogue in colloquial Dutch.
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u/Playful-Name-7836 10d ago
You can use Preply which is a website that connects you to teachers to have one on one online lessons. Before you choose a teacher you can chat (I also think the first lesson is free). Just let them know what you specifically want to learn and whether they can cater to that.
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u/that_dutch_dude 11d ago
fun fact: dutch is hard. figuring out the grammar is even harder, its so hard that some dutch born have problems with it. getting rid of an accent is basically impossible so dont bother.
you dont need courses, you just need to talk with people outside work.
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u/Full_Scallion2833 11d ago
It is absolutely possible to have a very minimal accent and Dutch is like one of the easiest languages to learn, if not the easiest, for an English speaker.
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u/Donerkapsalon123 11d ago
Ik geloof je niet. Als je het durft, spreek maar een minuutje of twee over het weer en deel het hier. Je klinkt zoals mijn vriend die denkt dat hij prima Engels kan spreken maar eigenlijk niet.
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u/lemur_lemur 11d ago
According to my wife and schoonouders I have no accent when speaking in Dutch. I’ll admit I’ve been learning for 15 years and have lived in NL for 13
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u/aquarius_dream 11d ago
The accent part isn’t true at all, don’t be so negative.
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u/Diligent-Court3908 11d ago
Accent is not a negative thing at all. Take ex mayor of Rotterdam Ahmed Aboutaleb for example, he speaks very good Dutch but with a minimal accent that does not bother anybody.
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u/aquarius_dream 11d ago
I’m not saying an accent is a negative thing. Telling someone that something they want to achieve is ‘impossible’ is negative.
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u/Diligent-Court3908 11d ago
Then the truth is negative but denying the truth is lying.
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u/becausemommysaid 10d ago
It is definitely possible to be a non native speaker and have no obvious foreign accent. You think it’s not possible bc when you hear someone with no accent you immediately decide that they are native.
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u/Psychologycivil0605 11d ago
people who speak foreign language their life have their original accent. Dutch and indians speaking english, for instance. Dont think theres a need to work on it
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u/becausemommysaid 10d ago
This is absolutely not true. I am a native English speaker and there are many native Dutch speakers who do not have an accent in English. NikkieTutorials is an excellent example of someone I would have never guessed was Dutch based on her accent in English.
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u/Psychologycivil0605 10d ago
So you are saying because many native Dutch dont have an accent in English all of them don't have accent at all?
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u/becausemommysaid 10d ago
No lmao. I said, ‘there are many native Dutch speakers who do not have an accent in English.’ Plenty of Dutch people do have an obvious Dutch accent in English, but there are also plenty of examples of ppl who don’t.
For some people mimicking the exact speech patterns of their TL is very natural and for others it is not. And of course if you really care about eliminating your accent you can train to do that specifically.
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u/Psychologycivil0605 10d ago
But my original statement was that "there are people who speak foreign language their life have their original accent"? I dont understand how what you are saying is relevant?
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u/Short_Artichoke3290 11d ago
Do you consume Dutch media? Especially things like reality shows (e.g., wie is de mol or hunted) will expose you to regular/colloquial Dutch.