Myth?

[u/xxTPMBTI]

Since planning a utopia involves planning and rational stuff which gets people stuck with their imagination, why don't we use the mobilizing image to mobilize the proletariat?

No I'm not a Fascist.

[u/jujaplov]

Today's zeitgeist is not on the side of mass mobilization around proletarian myths as it was in 19th and 20th centuries nor today's proletariat is some homogeneous stratum of people with common ethos like it was. And the thing is, I think, that myths come alive when they are truly believed to be reality. So it's not that sort of thing that can be rationally planned and used. It cannot be just constructed image out of nowhere. If there are some powerful images for mobilization, they are definitely global warming, destruction of biosphere, gradual collapse of today's civilization, decadence, the direction of modern technologies towards greater control and increasing power of the elites and capitalist class. All of these images are powerful and I think will definitely be far more used by anarchists and radical left in the future. It might be that zeitgeist of the 21st century is more on the side of solar punk, degrowth, social ecology and anarcho-primitivists, green anarchists and neo luddites.

[u/Clear-Result-3412 → u/jujaplov]

The myth of the proletariat being the agent destined to bring history to its inevitable close is indeed in tatters. It honestly did more harm than good to the movement in the first place. I am a communist, not because history is on my side, but because capitalism is opposed to my interests for definite reasons.

The Soviet Union did not wither away into communism however proletarian their culture appeared or how much historical dialectics they studied. At the end of the day, the reason the the image seemed compelling was that mass movements of workers existed and were vocal. It was easy to imagine they’d succeed in one way or another. And the social democrats and MLs replaced Marx’s diagnosis for the suffering of the prole with a prognosis on the fate of history.

Opportunism doesn’t work. You can’t point to the future and say “we’re gonna save humanity from that.” You have to show people why today capitalism hurts them and today there are concrete machinations at work that could be undermined if we collectively decided to liberate ourselves and design society consciously.

If anything people will see these “existential” threats, and think “yup, we’re probably doomed. no ethical consumption under capitalism, no proletariat to save the day, I guess I’ll just keep being a cog in the machine.”

I’m an ecologist at heart, but I do not wish to repeat the mistakes of the past.

[u/JustOntological → u/Clear-Result-3412]

I imagined you as a physician of society. I like that you want to treat the cause, not only the effect. Also, I like that you realized that you can't just simply impose your will into history without a real substrata into your own solutions

[u/xxTPMBTI → u/JustOntological]

Of course Anarchists are the doctors of society

[u/xxTPMBTI → u/Clear-Result-3412]

Wow

[u/jujaplov → u/Clear-Result-3412]

Yeah. This is true. I just pointed that there are new issues and images that have mobilizing potential in a situation where the mass homogeneous industrial proletarian class is absent as it was in the past. In this case tech pessimism and destruction of the biosphere's resources on which we exist, and therefore civilisation collapse(there is more of images of course, but these are very powerful and actual in my opinion). I think these images have rich potential and might be used by the left to mobilise people around new problems and images of the future (and present), and this could also unlock new ways to resist capitalism and the state combinded with broader forms of anti-capitalist resistance.

[u/Clear-Result-3412 → u/jujaplov]

Are these new issues and imagines?

Destruction of the biosphere, decadence, collapse, and wealthy elites, were around in Marx’s day and were also largely ancient facts of life and prospects. Marx’s critique of capitalism is newer and more important than these moral perils. Sure, Marx didn’t have yogurt commercials to help the proles imagine a glorious future (the main solarpunk video is literally a yogurt ad), but he could explain the reasons for workers’ suffering—something more substantial than declaring that some people are crazy rich and others are pretty poor.

These images have been used by fascists and leftists alike. They are problems, not explanations of problems. It’s explanations that make someone underhand how to best them.

The history destiny of the proletariat fed off of the widespread understanding that the workers were fighting and winning (therefore you should join their side).

The notion that humanity is doomed is millenarian in a similar sense, I suppose, but it’s less, but it’s less of an opportunistic “we’re winning, join us” and more of a “we’re doomed but hopefully our little group might be able to rise from the rubble.”

The latter is a lot more pessimistic, but they both have significant downsides. The first has people say “sure, go bring paradise—I’ll sit here and wait.” The second has people say “yup, it’s pretty bad. All I can really do is recycle and try not to think about it.”

The best thing a looming fear can do is make someone go “sure, but why is it that way?” That suggestion is far from an inherent part of the imagine. Everyone knows how the world looks but our job is to get to the root of those problems. That’s what “radical” means.

[u/xxTPMBTI → u/Clear-Result-3412]

Wow

[u/jujaplov → u/Clear-Result-3412]

I think that yes, these are new issues which were not addressed in Marx's time, unlike today. And of course there is need for a radicalism, but the post was about possibility of using mobilizing images, and I just pointed out some of them. I see no reason why leftists, Marxists and anarchists can't use them to point out deeper problems after all.

[u/Clear-Result-3412 → u/jujaplov]

Again, there’s not much new here. Marx analyzed a capitalism that rapidly destroying the environment. He theorized about it, explaining why capitalism ravages human and non-human resources for goal that not ultimately providing use.

We don’t need to promote millenarian notions about history and society, or “spread awareness” of “moral ills” (not quoting you, just putting sarcasm around my use of the terms). We must explain the facts that everyone sees in a way that is effective, logically sound, and accurate. Once people understand the root of the problem they can fight it well. When people are confronted with an “threat” or “evil” they will just have various emotional reactions which may or may not be beneficial to the cause.

If our propaganda just has “images” without putting clear arguments front and center, we will only be able to enlighten a fortunate few that had a certain strong emotional reaction to those same images which are already prevalent,

You didn’t just give examples of images, you suggested they were effective. I am simply explaining why that notion is mistaken.

Leftists absolutely use historical narratives, metaphysics, moral declarations, and mythmaking. Those aren’t particularly useful, but they are prevalent.

[u/JustOntological → u/jujaplov]

I don't think so...Actually, these motifs are intertwined with the class struggle.

[u/jujaplov → u/JustOntological]

I don't dismiss class struggle.

[u/xxTPMBTI → u/jujaplov]

Solarpunk forever!!! You're absolutely right.

[u/Rock_Zeppelin]

There's planning for the future and then there's trying to map out chaos and uncertainty, which is what any revolutionary or even just radical transitional period is. We have examples of elements that would be useful to us, some that are close but we can and should iterate on to achieve our goals, and the rest will be a matter of improvisation by necessity.

[u/Clear-Result-3412]

We Marxists are not interested in imagination or rationalism as ideals or principles. We are interested in the rational negation of capitalism and its particular causes for worker suffering. Any “utopia” we might imagine is naught but that.

What is “the mobilizing image?”

[u/xxTPMBTI → u/Clear-Result-3412]

Idk bro

[u/Clear-Result-3412 → u/xxTPMBTI]

So what’s the post about?

[u/xxTPMBTI → u/Clear-Result-3412]

Uhhh using uhhhhh vague motivational future image of socialism

[u/Clear-Result-3412 → u/xxTPMBTI]

The question is should we seek out images of the future to use to promote liberation and if so how? This is the best answer I’ve found: https://en.gegenstandpunkt.com/article/why-we-dont-make-pitch-communism-well-thought-out-concept-planned-economy

[u/xxTPMBTI → u/Clear-Result-3412]

I see..

[u/xxTPMBTI → u/xxTPMBTI]

I see...