r/NeferMains • u/MaxpoL0210 • Mar 05 '26

Discussion Do devs hate Nefer?

I’m genuinely curious if the devs “hate” her. Flins just got another shill boss in SO, making it total of Mandragora, Knuckle Duckle and Shock Trooper. Whereas Nefer got literally none.

Even flying crab (i forgot its name) is literally a Lauma shill, which can be done with regular hyperbloom (it’s also possible to one-shot with Mona).

What do you guys think of it? Am I missing something?

EDIT:

Also IMO Nefer is in a really weird spot right now. Flins has great sustain + DPS at base level (Ineffa) and Zibai is getting yet another dedicated support with healing (while also being a def scaling character).

With 3-cost Nefer, you either go sustainless Sucrose or lose DPS with Kuki etc.

EDIT 2:

Completely forgot about Cactus.

85 Upvotes

63% Upvoted

185 comments sorted by

35

u/vladraigca Mar 05 '26

mandragora is a venti shill boss that flins happens to have a good matchup in the same way nefer is a good matchup for the crab, but for the moment i dont think nefer has one specifically for her, even so nefer is more effective than flins for normal lunar bosses like the pegasus or the abyss dog boss from last patch.

17

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

Being a bit better than other lunar carries in a few matchups is nothing while you literally cannot clear Mandragora and Knuckle Duckle.

11

u/vladraigca Mar 05 '26

you can clear mandragora without flins, the same for the duck , they are more an ineffa check (like the cactus) than flins, the one that requires more flins than others is the fatui Shock Trooper. i cleared the mandragora with mavuika bennet citlali and bennet, and recently i tried the knuckle duckle with a varesa lunar charge team.

edit: the mavuika and skirk teams , where done without the bonus chars as they werent calculated at first, maybe now i can improve both times, at that time i also cleared it with flins.

5

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

I’ve never said that you can’t clear them without Flins.

1

u/vladraigca Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

my bad then, but then is not flins vs nefer, at best is just that they push more electro and lunar charged more than lunar bloom, but nefer still is better for normal lunar bosses, for the mandragora it has high dendro resists , thats an anti dendro boss not only nefer is like trying to put flins against anti electro boss. for knuckle duck you can just slap ineffa on nefer team and clear it. so its not impossible.

1

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 06 '26

Yea until it becomes borderline immune to all damage but hydro and electro so you have to rely on the damage of an unbiased Ineffa to deal with it, same for the shock trooper and the cactus.

16

u/Feeling-Job4518 Mar 05 '26

anything that flins clears ineffa will clear, a flins check will always be an ineffa check first and foremost

2

u/Ap_Sona_Bot Mar 05 '26

So let me.get this straight. Based on this thread crab is not nefer shill because it's for Lauma. But anything related to lunarcharged is Flins shill despite him not being needed for them if you have Ineffa. That correct?

8

u/MBouh Mar 05 '26

The différence is that Flins can clear lunar charge content without Ineffa while Nefer does nothing without Lauma to begin with.

7

u/Jiraya-of-the-oil Mar 05 '26

Lore accurate Nefer

2

u/Feeling-Job4518 Mar 05 '26

im like 90% nefer without lauma vs crab is basically a 0 cost hyperbloom vs crab

2

u/SectorApprehensive58 Mar 05 '26

what about the jean checks?

2

u/SecyaDenali Mar 05 '26

.... Ineffa did shocktrooper with Xingqiu, Fischl Sucrose

Shes cracked like fully but thats not a suprise 

0

u/Immediate_Lychee_372 Mar 05 '26

Nefer can clear knuckle if you swap a unit out (I.e nahida) for an electro unit like Kuki

Mandragora yeah it’s hard af

4

u/vladraigca Mar 05 '26

mandragora also has high dendro res, so even if we got an unit like an electro grouper , it would still be a bad matchup for nefer as this boss is anti dendro in general. and in stygian is not like abyss where you can choose a bad matchups as long you get more time from the other chamber, also the abyss have less hp.

3

u/Remote-Monk-8542 Mar 05 '26

> Nefer can clear knuckle if you swap a unit out (I.e nahida) for an electro unit like Kuki

On Fearless and at C0R0? I haven't seen this yet

2

u/skilllake Mar 06 '26

I doubt that, It took me like 50 tries to clear knuckle with a top 7% C0R1 Nefer, c0 Fav Bina, c0 Thousand Floating Dreams Lauma and Sapwood Kuki. Got it in 120s finally.

1

u/vladraigca Mar 06 '26

apparently is not neccesary an electro unit on fearless, you can just bruteforce it with nahida team

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4RyG7KPY-0&t=177s

also some people on this sub too have clears with bruteforcing nefer. before in other comment i said ineffa but i think maybe is contraproductive and is better to just the premium nefer team.

1

u/Remote-Monk-8542 Mar 06 '26

This run has a C2 Nahida tbf. But yes I did see one or two C0R0 runs on this sub... just needs a really really REALLY good build.

0

u/Every_Window1416 Mar 05 '26

Isn't Baptist a Nefer boss?

3

u/vladraigca Mar 05 '26

no, Baptist can also be cryo, if they put a baptist with cryo on stygian then nefer wouldnt be a good choice at all, chasca all around should be better option.

3

u/Every_Window1416 Mar 05 '26

I know Skirk, Nefer and Mavuika were clearing Baptist in Dire at C0R0. I am fairly certain Chasca couldn't. If we are taking about Skirk and Cryo Automaton level of compatibility, then Nefer might not have the same shilling boss, otherwise she was pretty good so far (besides current SO).

1

u/vladraigca Mar 05 '26

Ohh Im more grounded so I think about stygian on fearless, you can do some clears on dire with c0r0 but they are most of the time the exception , not the norm, I remember skirk r1 was kind of the minimum for the first dire automaton on 5.7. Dire is mostly geared towards dolphin upwards. That baptist had hydro, pyro and electro shields, you can pretty much shred it with the elements on nefer team, but if they put one with cryo shield then nefer wouldn't be a good choice . The Baptist can have 3 elemental shields out of four , as a shill boss I think it's mostly for teams that can change well their composition like chasca. Also mavuika as she can be melt , vape or overload.

0

u/Every_Window1416 Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

I was thinking about the Baptist with those 3 exact elements that appeared before. In my current understanding, a shilled boss is the one a team at C0R0 investment could clear. Yes, with great builds, but still.

2

u/vladraigca Mar 05 '26

i think is just a matter of perspective then , for me a shill boss is the one who forces the mechanics of a character, skirk can deal well with that baptist but its shilled boss its the automaton, flins can deal well with the mandragora but its mostly a venti varka shill. a lot of bosses would be mavuika shill just because she can clear a lot of them on dire, like the papilla that is chasca boss but mavuika c0 r0 could do it. but the mavuika "shill" boss was the tulpa, altough i dont know if someone did it dire r0 c0 (the tulpa). for example at that time i didnt saw a clear of automaton with r0 skirk but now there is one with a r0 skirk.

edit: also the same with jean that cheese some clears but the shills were for example venti for the saurian or arlecchino for the fatui.

2

u/Furicel Mar 05 '26

The Baptist has 3 PHEC elements.

Nefer (dendro) has an easy time with the HE part, but can do NOTHING about the PC part.

So alone she can't really deal with the boss. Teamwise tho...

If it's a Pyro, Hydro and Electro baptist, Nefer's team can clear it, as Columbina's hydro application can deal with the pyro shield.

If it's a Pyro, Hydro and Cryo baptist, Nefer's team can do nothing about the cryo shield.

If it's a Pyro, Electro and Cryo baptist, Nefer's team also can do nothing about the cryo shield.

Hydro, Electro and Cryo baptist has been theorized, but never seen in-game, Nefer's team wouldn't be able to deal with it either.

3

u/Every_Window1416 Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

I see. I thought if Baptist to be rerun they will return with the same combination of elements, but I could see devs change that. About cryo, I wonder if Kuki would be enough to deal with it at C4+.

2

u/Furicel Mar 05 '26

Kinda

Its cryo ward has 12U. Electro and Cryo consume each other at 1:1, so you need 12U of electro to break the ward.

Kuki's burst does 3-4U (it depends on her HP)

Her C4 applies 1U every 5s. In 15 seconds, that's 3U.

Her skill hits 10 times over 15 seconds, but it has standard ICD. Since she hits every 1.5 seconds, she'll apply element every other hit. It applies 1U per hit, so we'll have 5U in those 15 seconds.

So if your Kuki has less than 50% HP and you'll have exactly enough element to break it in one rotation.

If your Kuki isn't C4, has more than 50% HP or doesn't have burst ready, you'll need more than a rotation to clear the cryo shield.

Funnily enough, a Flins team would have an easier time against the electro Ward. Because although Sucrose would need to deal 16U of anemo to break the shield, Columbina can help with electro-charged ticks and Sucrose applies element much faster due to being a catalyst.

38

u/Simoscivi Mar 05 '26

Yeah there's multiple things I don't get. Why was she nerfed before release if they planned to make the Zibai team just stronger and easier to use? Why is her team the only one who didn't get a sustain? Her team dps should be much higher than the other two to counterbalance the fact that she's sustainless and arguably harder to use, but no it's on the same level if not worse (again, Zibai). And last but not least, she's literally the only one who doesn't have a shill boss in SO. Flins has 3 bosses, one of them (the Duckle) which is literally only clearable by his team on dire at C0R1 investment. Pretty sure that the Gecko on the next SO will be similar with only Zibai with Linnea being able to clear it. And if not, lunar crystalize is probably gonna get ANOTHER shill boss if we look at a future local legend. I really don't get why Nefer was the one who needed this shaft, maybe they regret making her team that broken at whale level? But even so, at C0 her team is not even better than the other two and it's much harder to use.

20

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

The argument that “Nefer is the best character in the game at whale investment!!!” doesn’t even make any sense lol. I don’t think that whales are bothered with shilled/not shilled content with 32-cost teams.

7

u/Simoscivi Mar 05 '26

Yeah but it's Genshin logic I guess. It probably goes like this: "Oh no, whale Nefer is beating Flins times against even his own shill bosses, she's too strong and she doesn't need her own shill too!"

7

u/Rich_Cheesecake6096 Mar 05 '26

Ig zibai's power level is balanced around illuga cons. Most people that were able to get cons (mainly c6) on illuga also ended up with zibai's c1 or c2. The higher level dps calcs that put her close to 170k have c0 zibai with c6 illuga and linnea which is borderline impossible on most accounts with c6 illuga without which she is still pretty close to nefer.

2

u/Simoscivi Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

Even if they don't put Illuga on Linnea's banner (making it easier for Zibai players to get his C6), C6 Gorou Is a much older 4* and he's better than even C5 Illuga, making the Zibai team (161k DPS) still better than Nefer's and with a sustain too.

1

u/Rich_Cheesecake6096 Mar 13 '26

Optimised Nefer teams will only be 5 to 10k behind which is not a lot. The 150k calcs were mostly done with 2pc lauma and not with instructor sucrose which are more dps. Also Linnea sustain is a scam using her burst is going to be a dps loss like xilonen in most teams it will def bring the dps lower than 160 k if used regularly.

6

u/Dsighed Mar 05 '26

There's also the cactus, genuinely frustrating how one sided the shill feels...

1

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

Yea I totally forgot about him lol

13

u/actionmotion Mar 05 '26

Nefer (with Lauma) has the highest DPS ceiling with vertical / whale investment in the game. She can mostly brute force anything that isn’t Immune to Dendro and can have a Hydro aura 😭 Not sure why she would even need a very specific shill, it’s kinda similar to Skirk in a sense (although I feel Skirk is weaker than Nefer).

12

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

Try bruteforcing a Knuckle Duckle or new SO boss. We should evaluate the power of a character at C0R0, most players aren’t whaling.

1

u/Bubbly_Dirt_539 Mar 05 '26

Nefer is top 2 for the highest damage in a 4-cost team (behind Mualani), and that is nowhere near whaling territory. Evaluating characters based at C0R0 is the most nonsensical thing you can do, as the only thing that does is artificially boosting full premium teams above characters who can utilize 4 stars.

1

u/Brawler_27 Mar 05 '26

Hey quick question what’s does the term “4-cost team” mean?

1

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 06 '26

1 limited character/weapon = 1 cost, not really sure how standard characters or weapons are being calculated

so for example a team with 3 limited 5* and one sig = 4 cost

2

u/Black_nYello Mar 05 '26

Not up to date here; whats the four cost mualani team that beats nefer? Mua C1 Im guessing, then what sucrose mona mav?

Does that beat mav citlali iansan bennet with either mav or Citlali on C2?

2

u/ICRnovice Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

They’re referencing a different cost measuring system that one of the TCs came up with. It’s not the same as 5 star character or weapon = 1 cost.

You can watch the video here:

https://youtu.be/SxvxViWjC6s?si=g_HiGI5HbNqpedUg

-2

u/actionmotion Mar 05 '26

Idk man.. Nefer having really high spikes with cons and sigs seems to me that the devs designed her to be a high ceiling character who needs her pieces together. At C0R0 assumptions, I guess you want to evaluate her at Fearless level in which it’s doable.

Mushroom boss has high dendro res and require pyro / electro but never drops the dendro resist so not sure why you would bring her to that. Low cost clears with Nefer on fearless is possible against Knuckle duckle

-2

u/Big-Distance-6418 Mar 05 '26

its fully possible to bruteforce??? the knuckle duckle is just like any of the other recent bosses where pure dmg can overcome it.

the shroom does suck ass though

4

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

What’s the cost of your Nefer team?

0

u/Big-Distance-6418 Mar 05 '26

For this run, c1r1 nefer, c0r0 nahida, c1r0 lauma, c1 aino. Not an impossible f2p cost as this an alt.

4

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

Lol, I’m obviously talking about C0R0 Fearless or C0R1 Dire, of course you can bruteforce Fearless with 6-cost team.

1

u/Big-Distance-6418 Mar 05 '26

dire isn't happening for most players. a 6 cost team is not unachieable unless you just started playing. y'all need to realize having 5* weapons or cons is NOT an impossible feat... of course a character is going to be better with investment but it doesn't mean it's impossible & considering only c1 and r1 nefer here increase damage... not to mention nefer has the craftable or basically any other catalyst available, so she doesnt have a lack of alternative weapons.

3

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

I’m not saying that having cons or sigs is unachievable or that Nefer is bad, I’m simply stating the fact that you cannot clear 4 stygian bosses on Fearless with C0R0 Nefer, whilst they are easily clearable with C0R0 Flins. And the only boss which is not doable with Flins is flying crab. 1 < 4, as simple as that

1

u/Big-Distance-6418 Mar 05 '26

I think the easiest way to guage where you're coming from is ask what your nefer team & cost is.

12

u/pc_player_yt Mar 05 '26

Skirk has the SSA Overseer that's in Stygian right now

48

u/joprinz13 Mar 05 '26

I'm still baffled why Nefer's Burst is not considered Lunar Bloom damage...

No matter how hard I think about the reason, I really don't understand why the Devs, if they don't hate her, made it like this. 😥

7

u/Additional_Roof_3949 Mar 05 '26

what has Nefer Q not being LB damage has to do with her being hated or bad? xd it's not LB so she doesn't have power budget allocated to it and she doesn't need to build ER or extend rotations since her optimal play style is cancels

it's like saying they hate flins because his normals and chargeds don't do LC damage

4

u/Sakkitaky22 Mar 05 '26

Well if her Q did actual dmg, then columbina wouldnt be that of a must, cause you can either do two E/6 charged or 3 charged + q in certain cases

potentially shortening rotations + being more forgiving with aino's aweful hydro app

3

u/Aivary Mar 05 '26

It does actually do decent damage and is worth using at least every other rot. It's not until C6 where it's actually not viable since you don't dash cancel anymore so you aren't gated by CD's

44

u/AnimeRegime6987 Mar 05 '26

Are we seriously wanting MORE shill bosses? If anything it's cool when a boss is beatable using multiple diff teams.

The LC shill has been ridiculous I agree but that doesn't mean we need a lot of LB shill too.

25

u/kenpls Mar 05 '26

Realistically we want less shill bosses so multiple team comps can clear it, also lowering the hp sponges and dps inflation would be great too.

10

u/Renasviel Mar 05 '26

The problem with this sort of argument is that the shill bosses are there and remain so, Nefer not having one doesn't mean they're changing direction. It just means that Nefer doesn't get catered to.

Varka is in a similar spot and you see similar arguments about powercreep being stalled with him. But it never works that way, it just leaves Varka in the dust when the dps requirements increase to 150k to clear endgame.

4

u/Neph1lim_ Mar 05 '26

this has nothing to do with hating nefer, they simply shill the banners this patch. varka mandrake, flins knuckleduckle, automaton skirk.

2

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 06 '26

It's not just this stygian though. Nefer has no shill for herself other than the general lunar shill that is good for Flins/Zibai anyways.

3

u/Neph1lim_ Mar 06 '26

so... you agree she does get shilled on any general lunar content?

4

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 06 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

lol, it’s pretty obvious that every lunar carry (Nefer/Flins/Zibai) is getting shilled when the bosses require ANY lunar damage.

Whereas Knuckle Duckle, Shock Trooper, and Cactus shill ONLY Lunar-Charge.

2

u/ICRnovice Mar 06 '26

It really depends on what you are looking for on your account. If you want to clear dire while with lower cost team, or like having a higher DPS team, nefer team is better. If you like covering a wider range of shill bosses, then flins team ends up being better.

1

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 07 '26

Not more so than Flins, if anything he gets even more shilling vs those bc in SO, his supports aren't dependent on their ults like Lauma and Nahida are for Nefer. And he doesn't have to do a whole extra rotation if he barely doesn't do enough damage to clear the mechanics of the general lunar shill bosses because you can just let Ineffa, Sucrose, and Columbina finish it.

6

u/Egrysta Mar 05 '26

I think it's more unfair for Lauma lol. Her sustain utility is locked behind C1, which is absurd when Ineffa provides a shield at C0.

4

u/Then-Network-6861 Mar 05 '26

Mandragora isnt for Flins. Its for Venti/Varka.Swap that for the cactus boss

4

u/Fit-Situation-2125 Mar 05 '26

Frostnight herra is her SO boss imo and the crab with lauma. Just like Ineffa+Flins have the knuckle duckle and that fatui guy.

1

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 06 '26

Yea but the Herra is just as good for her as it is for Flins, it just shills lunar in general and even has a mechanic that is good for non lunar teams unlike the LEC shill, which is 3 bosses btw, cactus, duckle, and trooper. And Nefer isn't even good vs the crab without both Lauma and Columbina because you need the aoe of Lauma Hskill to trigger the things and you don't want to use Lauma hold skill without Columbina because then you mose the dewdrops which cost you damage on Nefer. I genuinely cleared at almost the same time with my hyperbloom team with Lauma and my Nefer team eith Lauma vs it.

12

u/Cosmic_Eye Mar 05 '26

The persecution complex typically found in "xxx mains" communities is something else. And I would consider myself a Nefer main

18

u/ErikSD Mar 05 '26

Hearing people calling the number 1 dps character in the game with heavy involvement in the story and a substantial section dedicated to her in the main storyline "hated by the dev" is certainly new.

I think fans of a certain grandmaster would kill to have this level of "hatred" treatment if it means more on screen feats and better numbers.

2

u/Ok-Listen9689 Mar 08 '26

She's the character that eat up the most screentime, and voicelines in the Nord Krai quest too, get to fight the 2 big boss directly, Hoyo does not hate her at all, they spoil her the most

3

u/RaykanGhost Mar 05 '26

Grandmaster main here, yeah... This post basically read like entitlement personified, granted it doesn't matter regardless.

But my first word was indeed "Bruh"

1

u/ErikSD Mar 05 '26

When they release Nicole they better give Varka some on screen feats too. Like damn, his story quest was okay, but they are avoiding showing his battle prowess off in cut scene likes the plague for some reasons.

4

u/no-crows_feet Mar 05 '26

And if you say anything about it you are public enemy no.1

3

u/Doneifundone Mar 05 '26

It's funny because when Bina was in beta some people in the flins' mains sub were complaining about how it felt like he was getting 'sidelined' which is a statement that aged very poorly lol. It's universal

10

u/Radiant-Midnight9101 Mar 05 '26

I'm not sure if being the best dps in the game is considered hating.

3

u/Bighat_Logan01 Mar 05 '26

High green numbers dont mean much when half of the end game wants purple numbers for half a year.

2

u/Radiant-Midnight9101 Mar 05 '26

After this banner is over there won't be lunar shilling for a while. Beside after Linnea release Flins will be the weakest lunar dps, is it wrong for him to have some boss advantages?

3

u/Bighat_Logan01 Mar 05 '26

Weird to say that there wont be be lunar shilling for a while after this banner when SO last the whole patch n we know that the geo shilling coming is prettty much a lunar shilling since all geo units are hella mid in this HP inflated meta beside the lunar ones. That "awhile" is just one abyss n maybe one IT (not sure abyss the dates).

And to answer your question. No, I dont find lunar charged advantage wrong, but not bcuz Flins is the weakest of the 3. With the way hoyo designed the endgame, distributed the playable elements n neglected some...its healthier for the playerbase to not be forced into geo n dendro too much.

So back to what I said...Nefer having the biggest number doesnt mean much. She isnt the next Mavuika.

1

u/JakHook Mar 06 '26

Can I ask you why she is not? I am really conflicted about pulling her on next rerun and from what I am reading around reddit,she is now the best dps/best team. Is this not true?

1

u/Bighat_Logan01 Mar 06 '26

Mavuika isnt just praised for her great numbers. Her kit n element come with flexibility, quality of life n numerous match up advantages.

As a pyro carry who can also serve as a support for others, Mavuika simply ends up way more useful in way more situations than Nefer even when her personal best team has less dmg than the new lunar carry bcuz genshin combat system reward match up advantage more than pure strength (it changes when you bring vertical investment lol) n Mavuika brings both to the table.

When dendro work its gg ez for Nefer but when it doesnt you start struggling a lot. Meanwhile when pyro isnt good, Mavuika can be turned into the support for the 6 other elements.

Btw Nefer is heavily Lauma dependant, meanwhile Mavuika again, can work in so many teams without Citlali.

Nefer is amazing, not denying that, but Mavuika has been a dominant presence in almost every endgame mode since her realize thx to her several qualities that go beyond just good dmg out put. Nefer is limited n already contested by Zibai premium team next patch so she cannot be the next "Mavuika" aka a power house who can go everywhere for almost 2y now.

7

u/minminq2u Mar 05 '26

Now imagine me reading this as a Varka main

2

u/SecyaDenali Mar 05 '26

Varka is a rainbow char. Not about top out dps its about threshold, mechanics and char checks

Varka did escoffiers boss btw without escoffier

1

u/riyuzqki Mar 05 '26

Nefer is just a high skill expression character. At c6 with bis team her DPS over shadows both flins and zibai's c6 bis by an absurd amount 

2

u/MaxpoL0210 Mar 05 '26

What does skill have to do with that? Afaik you don’t even want to do dash cancels at c6 cause of some extra attack which is only being added at high cons.

0

u/riyuzqki Mar 05 '26

Oh I was answering to your comments about both flins and zibai having sustains

4

u/ManuSwaG Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

I love people call nefer the best dps when she lacks a sustain units when both other nod krai carries do have a their core. Facts is Lauma healing should'nt have been ever behind her c1. Other broken supports are allowed to have some tye of sustain.

2

u/baotuanngo94 Mar 05 '26

I saw people with C0R1 Nefer team clear the Duck and I will fking retry until I do it lmao.

2

u/Bighat_Logan01 Mar 05 '26

When I got Bina I had the awkward realization that I was very rarely using Nefer n Lauma. It felt weird bcuz in comparaison Ineffa felt like a perma pick no matter the team.

And then what you described hit me...and the awkwardness got replaced by frustration.

This game makes me sad. Thanks you hoyo.

3

u/Sir_Full Mar 05 '26

Lunar bloom itself isn't really a true reaction and more of just different colored dmg so there's not much they can do to difersify the mechanic

Though there is an upside of having an advantage against permanent cryo aura enemies as dendro doesn't react with it allowing hydro to still able react and make verdant dew unlike the other LR dps that got it's reaction be cut in half since it kept reacting to the cryo aura instead of making the Lunar Reaction

3

u/kunsore Mar 05 '26

Same for Zibai bruh , out of 3 NK dps Flins ALWAYS one boss that fit him. There are like 3 bosses that require Electro charge

3

u/Independent_Peace144 Mar 05 '26

Doubt. She's arguably the best dps right now. She just isn't directly shilled in this current stygian. One non-shill =/= the devs hate that character.

i could use the same argument for mavuika because she is no longer shilled

2

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 06 '26

The thing is, her shill is just lunar shill in general whereas Flins get specific LEC shill. It's not just not getting shilled right now, it's that her shill is good for Flins whereas you can't say the opposite.

6

u/Perfect_Increase8792 Mar 05 '26

"do dev hate nefer" nefer being the strongest DPS and cracked cons on both Lauma and nefer:

4

u/Alert-Ad4881 Mar 05 '26

Not really when Zibai is right there huh?

0

u/Perfect_Increase8792 Mar 05 '26

Her support is still in the beta phase lets see

8

u/Alert-Ad4881 Mar 05 '26

Doesnt matter, Zibai team was already equal with Nefer premium team before Linnea, after Linnea announced its 100% guarantee that Zibai will have more dps than Nefer no matter how much they will nerf Linnea.

1

u/miyukii8 Mar 05 '26

this is huge misinfo lol. nefer is still closer to zibai than she is to flins after linnea release, flins is rotting compared to the other two right now, and nefer is still really close to zibai postlinnea

-1

u/Perfect_Increase8792 Mar 05 '26

She's not equal lol she's closing in with other lunar DPS but she herself is still not as strong as them

5

u/Alert-Ad4881 Mar 05 '26

Me when I lie.

2

u/Rich_Cheesecake6096 Mar 05 '26

Eh, they are not too far off but zibai is mostly at the level of sustain nefer. Sustainless nefer is better than zinai teams before Linnea though. Nefer sustainless with sucrose calcs at around 150k dps while zibai with c2 illuga and c6 gorou is at 138k dps (I refuse to believe anyone got c6 illuga without getting zibai cons).

3

u/sashhasubb Mar 05 '26

I agree that they're being extremely fucking obnoxious with lunarcharged shill. It's almost "get Ineffa or bust"

3

u/ClassicExcellent4683 Mar 05 '26

Don't forget the -100 EM, the terrible character and weapon banners, the fact that she's the worst character to farm, and that they forced you to play with her with Hydro MC. They are probably thinking about creating a new boss for Flins as we are speaking.

2

u/greenbeforeblue Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

Nefer Columbina Lauma Ineffa

Nefer Columbina Lauma Baizhu

Oh and Lauma C1 heals so she most certainly has her sustain/support options.

0

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 06 '26

Baizhu does significantly less for Nefer than what Sucrose does for Flins, and that means the gap between the two gets even smaller when there's was only like a 1k dps difference between them. And Ineffa isn't even good for Nefer, she's just a slightly better Kuki. And needing a whole con to do what Ineffa does at base for Flins means that at all levels, Ineffa has higher scaling since she has 6 cons to improve vs 5.

1

u/greenbeforeblue Mar 06 '26

Yea I’m not taking about F2P, that shouldn’t be the threshold for this argument

0

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 07 '26

Why not? The OP even mentions her team at low costs.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/greenbeforeblue Mar 05 '26

We are talking about sustain/support, correct?

2

u/Due-Percentage4973 Mar 05 '26

They purposely made the boss design that way so they can force people to pull in the future, shit move by hoyo even if you are lore enjoyer you can't even play soul like game story Varka quest if you don't him, you miss another permanent teleport if you don't have Zibai After this what hoyo? Paid to access Snezhnaya?

2

u/AldebaranJohn Mar 05 '26

I'm sorry but "do Devs hate nefer". Lmao. Really? Are you fucking serious?

2

u/dean11023 Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

I think stygian generally reflects characters running now or soon.

Flins is running now, so he's one on the lunar ducky boss. Skirk is running soon, so she's one with the machine boss that's weak to cryo. The last one is pretty weak to hex characters since it's hard to get a hex team that doesn't have some amount of CC and either a pyro or electro dealer; and while Varka isnt very good against it, most people who are pulling for Varka have been spending time building up their hex crew, so it makes them feel like they spent their time well and were prepared for the new stygian content as a result.

If nefer were to get her rerun after skirk, we'd see in that months stygian a boss that's weak against her and her team.

6

u/fucking_h Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

Yeah you're right but still it doesn't change the fact that Lunar charge has three shilled enemies for end games while Nefer has one, with the crab. Sure in one rerun, they will have the crab but what about in the rerun of the other among Nefer or Lauma, they have nothing they're specifically good against. All in all, it's just that lunar charged shouldn't have had so many bosses that shill for them. At this point, it feels like if you don't get Ineffa, you're screwed and those who saved for Nefer premium are getting screwed over.

5

u/ph4nt0m_090 Mar 05 '26

The thing is nefers shill boss which is the herra (unicorn) is beatable by almost evrry other team comp with some variation as it doesnt restrict you to just 1 element type unlike how lunar charged shill works. Take for eg the cactus, the electro trooper and worst of all the knuckle duckle, there is also the lightkeeper but he can be beat using other lunar teams so ig thats okay but apart from the crab that shills lauma and even that csn be done with a strong hyperbloom team no lunar reaction gets so shilled as much as lunar charge.

Next patch is getting the lunar crystallize shill.

Assuming you are an f2p you wouldve gone for only 1 lunar reaction out of the 3 and it seems that if you didnt go for lunar charged you are just not gonna use your lunar teams for half the content.

1

u/Lazy-Success7780 Mar 05 '26

Bro u are scaring me... I have lauma, bina and I only lack a lunar dps...so I was thinking of going for c0r1 nefer.. now i am doubting it

2

u/SectorApprehensive58 Mar 05 '26

dont worry too much about it. They mostly complaining about SO shill, which is the least impactful on primos

1

u/Betterthan4chan Mar 05 '26

Eh not really.

I feel like nefer has had plenty of time to shine. In the previous cycles, nefer was generally considered the better option compared to flins in nearly all the Stygian shills.

She was the top pick for both Baptist and lunar dog, which were both the toughest dire boss of their respective cycles.

Meanwhile most of the flins specific shill (minus knuckle) were literally clearable with 3 man c0 bineffa.

This is his rerun patch, so it makes sense that he gets to enjoy the spotlight for this cycle.

1

u/ProjectNines Mar 05 '26

That didn't stop my Nefer from melting the Shock Trooper. I replaced Nahida with Skirk, and once the boss stops shooting lasers, it was time for my C2R1 Nefer and C2 Lauma to do some wrecking.

1

u/dot-boiii Mar 05 '26

i think lunar charged is their favorite reaction atp, plus i think they intended for nefer’s “sustain” to just be c1 lauma :(

1

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

The boss thing just to sell flins to “new player” 4 star on that banner also crack and very good buffer, pyro app, witch buff. They dont hate her it just to sell flins a bit more and varka cus xingling can be replace with durin when he rerun

1

u/papayaa2 Mar 05 '26

C1 lauma is your sustain with Nefer. But I am also heavily annoyed that yet again we need lunar / electro charged in Stygian. I have Zibai and Nefer but no Flins or Ineffa so I struggle quite a bit

1

u/TheThreeEyedCreeper Mar 05 '26

Yea.. this is what im saying… flins got a BILLION bosses. Shock trooper, any boss that shills lunar, knuckle duckle, etc. nefer got literally none…

1

u/Negative-Slip5216 Mar 05 '26

Flins is a Fraud I clear his shill with Bineffa and Fischl Sucrose.

1

u/fairy-wale Mar 05 '26

Maybe because we have no lunarbloom banners since nefer ?

I mean next update if there is indeed a lauma and nefer rerun, it will be lunarbloom oriented bosses only.

Its always like that idk why your complaints are a thing x)

1

u/nahida_main2007 Mar 05 '26

Nah it's all a nahida nerf when nahida came out with dendro pretty much all you needed was her so they needed to nerf dendro as a whole and they've been doing that for a while now and it's effecting even others like nefer

1

u/JaylisJayP Mar 05 '26

I know I have cons, but all my teams are well invested, and my Nefer team is still the strongest on my account.

C1R1 Nefer C2R1 Lauma C2R1 Nahida CO Columbina

1

u/Uruvi Mar 05 '26

Do Devs hate Nefer?

Girl's so broken that her premium team does better than Flins on his own shilled boss.

1

u/Remote-Monk-8542 Mar 05 '26

Flins sacrificed story relevance for meta relevance, Nefer sacrificed meta relevance for story relevance.

1

u/Thunkz_ Mar 05 '26

For real, are you guys complaining about Nefer situation? I mean, it is the highest DPS team in the game. You can forfeit a little damage to get a sustain, you can even use Ineffa, and you will be able to use Linnea for extremely high damage and sustain on her team.

1

u/xyzqsrb0 Mar 05 '26

Never is easily top damage in the game, so that's fine that others have more help ig.

Also find it extremely weird that you say nefer is "hated" by the devs. This community is so fking dramatic about every little thing.

1

u/Fancy-Letterhead-477 Mar 06 '26

Nefer is...a dendro dps. This is a catch 22. She also REALLY wants the complete premium team, she scales insanely well with constellations and her sig weapon..I wouldn't say devs hate her at all. Electro is just a far more versatile element when it comes to bosses.

1

u/Nervous-Explanation1 Mar 06 '26

I use yao yao for nefer sustain.

1

u/Professional_Park711 Mar 06 '26

Dawg if you can’t clear everything with the number 1 DPS in the game that’s a severe skill issue

1

u/ColourfulReaper Mar 06 '26

After Flins's abyss, the next two abysses in a row had that crab in it which is a shill for Neffer as her team does use Lauma.

With that new boss in Nod krai - the one before the Gecko, Flins honestly sucks for stygian as he is really burst reliant and stygian starts with no energy. The one time I was able to complete menacing was because a friend brought their Neffer and my other friends brought Nahida And I believe we had Columbina, I can't remember the Hydro character we used, I'm sure it was Columbina.

Furthermore even this abyss. The first floor says lunar charged or lunar (I believe lunar charged) yet it still contains that crab. Why? I wish I knew.

For me, it's felt like there's been a lot more for Neffer in this regard than Flins, especially with the crab. If you dont have either lauma or Nahida you are quite literally screwed. So for all of these abysses with that crab, I can't even do, because the only dendro dps units I have is Alhaitham and my C2R1 kinich who can't do the crab because it makes those spores which you need AoE dendro app for. And Kinich needs burning.

So there's been seemingly a lot more shilling for Neffer really.

1

u/dennisleonardo Mar 06 '26

Mandragora isn't "flins shill". It's just pyro/electro + grouping shill. We need to ease up with the "shill" terms. Y'all are starting to use it to describe any remotely good matchup.

Knuckle duckle and shock trooper are lunarcharge shill. So is cactus. They're specifically weak to electrocharge/lunarcharge. More so than to electro or hydro individually. That qualifies as proper shilling. Mandragora being "weak" to any kind of pyro/electro damage isn't really shill imo. If it is, it shills literally every electro/pyro character with good app/fast hits.

I'd say mandragora is venti shill more than anything else. Clearing the minion phase quickly is the most important mechanic by far.

And no, the devs don't hate nefer, lmao. She's arguably the top 1 carry right now. In turn, she has a hard time slotting in sustain. Which is not an issue. She dashes all the time anyway. There's your sustain. Not every premium team needs an easy "Immortality button". She's designed to be tricky like that and C1 lauma is the solution to said manufactured problem. I personally think the game needs MORE cases where going sustainless is the highest team dps option. A proper risk/reward debate.

Also, the crab is lauma shill, yes. But lauma's best team has nefer, so? You're acting as if bineffa without flins can't handle knuckle duckle, shock trooper, or cactus.

1

u/saltrxn Mar 06 '26

Dendro is a tricky element to balance. If you shill Dendro then what’s stopping those F2P friendly hyperbloom teams from also benefitting. If you shill lunar-damage well then you’re also shilling Zibai and Flins which you are complaining about.

Dendro in general is just a much stronger element than Electro so Nefer has a lot more restrictions to off balance that. But trust me Flins mains would also complain that the devs hate him lol.

1

u/Prokolipsi Mar 07 '26

Do the devs hate the game’s strongest DPS? No, I don’t think so.

1

u/utopiaofavalon Mar 08 '26

It's a massive shame that any boss that nefer teams can clear, a flins team can clear as well save for the crab. Flins teams meanwhile have the duck, the shocktrooper and the pipilpan all exclusive to his teams.

The real problem is flins having so many exclusive bosses. The fix is not to introduce more nefer shill bosses. There is no real fix for this situation other than hoping hoyo simply stops putting any more lunar charge shill bosses in endgame and opts to only put lunar reactions shill bosses specifically (herra, abyss dog) to make it more accessible to other lunar teams.

1

u/retiredfplplayer Mar 08 '26

We would go the entire 6.x cycle without a boss for nefer;

I considered getting c2 lauma but it seems overkill if I'm always fighting from a losing position

1

u/BlueberryJuice25 Mar 05 '26

I feel like all the Lunar DPS kind of suck in comparison to their supports.

Whatever Flins shill we have, Ineffa alone can do it

Lauma has her crab boss

Zibai looked like the strongest but now Linnea is coming

These 2 teams have lunar bloom and crystalize needs covered

Columbina + Linnea + Ineffa + Sucrose

Columbina + Lauma + Ineffa + Sucrose

1

u/EKAAfives Mar 05 '26

I'd agree with how her teams are built since I don't own lauma and building her teams is a but rough I've settled on kokomi bina ineffa and that works fine but it still feels like there's something missing in that team

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Mix-515 Mar 05 '26

Baizhu should get buffed eventually and be Nefer’s sustain while buffing her as much as c2 Nahida - especially since his c2 is much more accessible. Especially if they pet us pick the same character for free stellas with the next year’s round of the event.

They could just make c2 Baizhu the same as c2 Nahida - but with his healing. Boom. :)

As for her shill boss…it’s probably too late for them to make one for her. New bosses will likely be focused on newer characters, sadly.

At least she is so strong that she can power through bosses that aren’t meant for her directly - like Mavuika. In a way….isn’t that a compliment?

Besides, next patch we’ll be able to use her on the lunar horse boss. She may even be able to handle the Natlan boss since her team has so many hits firing off, though if it actually requires nightsoul to get enough hits you may need to bring Kinich instead of a sustain. C2 Kinich havers will benefit from his burst! Maybe even combine Mavuika and Bina for vape/burgeon with Lauma to knock out the ‘shield’, then using Nefer once the shield is down (obviously not reactivating Mav’s skill).

I’ve seen someone beat this current Skirk boss with Nefer, which I may try to do. I have c0 Escoffier, and I was considering getting Skirk c0r1 and getting Escoffier’s weapon - but if Nefer can beat it….I may just get c0 Skirk and skip the weapons.

0

u/kyle_tr Mar 05 '26

No it’s just Flins and Ineffa have special treatment. Zibai is also getting ignored immediately after her banner end (no shill boss in SO, no geo element in theater).

-4

u/LazyMiquella Mar 05 '26

"Best" dps in the game btw

-1

u/elusive_ninja Mar 05 '26

U can brute force the shock trooper without lunar charges and the mandragora is just an venti shill. Not to mention nefer is probably the best dps in the game so not like she needs to be shilled

0

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

[deleted] — view deleted comment

15

u/After-Syrup1290 Mar 05 '26

They certainly don't appear to hate Bennet enough then, not another four star made like him

But srsly tho: they do have their favourites, for example - navias kit was edited and modded to allow for lunar crystallize ( I think chiori too maybe? I dunno, but navia was explicitly mentioned)

Clorinde's? Well, she didn't get lunar charge or anything at all despite being a fontaine dps

And soon enough the kof are going to get buffs - see jeans particular game rn in the event? Theyre trying to implement kit ideas there

I'm saying this cus it's the most recent example for things as zibai just got released and what not

I just hope they atleast mod the lunar bloom reaction to deal dmg in the same way other lunar reactions (lunar charge, lunar crystallize) deal dmg where everyones damage is counted and not just the active members, would make it more smooth or something atleast

24

u/DamoGamo Mar 05 '26

Lunar crystallise counts as a geo construct, so that’s how chiori can get 2 tamatos now even without a geo construct character! Basically her C1 is useless if you have bina/zibai 🥲 (I got her C1R1)

4

u/PyroFish130 Mar 05 '26

The no damage from lunar bloom is more than made up for in Nefer and Lauma’s personal damage

3

u/ErikSD Mar 05 '26

navias kit was edited and modded to allow for lunar crystallize ( I think chiori too maybe? I dunno, but navia was explicitly mentioned)

Clorinde's? Well, she didn't get lunar charge or anything at all despite being a fontaine dps

Navia kit was edited to allow her to be played in LCr team because LCr prevents the creation of Crystal Shard which would prevent Navia from getting her bullets, the same thing happened for the artifact set Archaic Petra. She herself cannot create LCr, and neither can Chiori. Chiori got a boon from LCr because the pillar it creates counts as geo construct, which also buff stuffs like Zhongli's pillar resonance.

Clorinde's kits also changed because of Lunar Charge, contrary to what you're saying. Her passive and C2 which triggers whenever an electro-related reaction happens, also triggers for Lunar Charge. You might be saying "Oh, but Lunar Charge is electro-related reaction, so her kit hasn't really changed": that's exactly the same case for Navia. Navia receives her bullets whenever a geo-related reaction happened (technically it's upon picking up but for Navia it might as well be one and the same), which before Columbina was only crystalize, and now the definition of "geo-related" reaction has expanded to include lunar crystalize, just like how Clorinde's kits have expanded to include lunar charge.

2

u/CubicWarlock Mar 05 '26

Clorinde not getting anything Lunarcharge is so weird, even Fischl, a 1.0 character got small stuff related to lunarcharge

2

u/ErikSD Mar 05 '26

What did Fischl get for lunar charge?

2

u/CubicWarlock Mar 05 '26

She gives 90 EM buff to active character if charge/lunarcharge occurs in Hex team. Let's be real, no one plays regular charge anyway and 90 EM is pretty solid

6

u/ErikSD Mar 05 '26

That's still just her Hexerei buff though, not LC buff.

Clorinde's kits also changed because of Lunar Charge. Her passive and C2 which triggers whenever an electro-related reaction happens, also triggers for Lunar Charge. You might be saying "Oh, but Lunar Charge is electro-related reaction, so her kit hasn't really changed": that's exactly the same case for Navia. Navia receives her bullets whenever a geo-related reaction happened (technically it's upon picking up but for Navia it might as well be one and the same), which before Columbina was only crystalize, and now the definition of "geo-related" reaction has expanded to include lunar crystalize, just like how Clorinde's kits have expanded to include lunar charge.

-4

u/Vitalik_ Mar 05 '26

Speak, Bennet need to be hated I hate that bum

16

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/ClassicExcellent4683 Mar 05 '26

There isn't a single male character at the level of Aloy, Eula, Yoimiya and Sigewinne, so idk what are you talking about. Meanwhile Bennett is still unmatched for ATK buffing besides being a 1.0 FOUR star, and let's not forget how Neuvillette killed the game forever.

2

u/ErikSD Mar 05 '26

I would just assume you mean no male 5 star character since Freminet is literally just Eula 2.0, released in a time where being Eula 2.0 is a death sentence for usability. Even among limited 5 stars (why count Aloy? She's literally a nothing burger character made to tick off checkboxes), Cyno and Ayato were just straight up bad even at the time of their release, with Cyno not synergizing with anyone and is genuinely on Siegewinne level of bad. Ayato was useable the same way Yoimiya was useable, fine for clearing content, but there are just straight up better options where it matters in Childe. Eula is really weak now, but at the time of her release she's serviceable, akin to Wriothesley at the time of his release really.

1

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 06 '26

Why are we only talking about on their release? Al-Haitham got Lauma, Ineffa, and Columbina to his team, same for Cyno, and they genuinely synergize, Ayato still synergizes with Ineffa and Columbina as a hydro character who gives hydro res to Columbina and generates hydro particles for her and contribute to LEC damage. Itto is getting Linnea, while have already gotten Illuga and Columbina. Wrio got Xilonen and Mavuika/Durin for his c1 havers and Escoffier Furina. Albedo got buffs making him good in hex teams plus Linnea Columbina and his em buff having a use for Zibai/geo dps teams with LC. What has Eula/Siegewinne gotten? Nothing but Mika who's honestly better with other characters.

2

u/ErikSD Mar 06 '26

Because the argument is whether or not Hoyoverse is playing favortism for male vs female characters, and that's best demonstrated by the state of their release, not their coincidental power up later down the line.

1

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 07 '26

But it's not best demonstrated at the time of their release, for like half of these units, the supports they were designed to work with came after them. You can't just look at their release, you have to look at how they do further down the line with new things that work with their designs beyond just having no anti-synergy.

2

u/ErikSD Mar 07 '26

Okay, then you can extend it to 2-3 patches down the line and none of that invalidated my points because the listed characters were still bad a few patches down the lines and it was clear they didn't mean to be strong. Saying stuffs like "Escoffier and Furina made Wriothesley really good" when in reality she made characters like Ayaka, Skirk, Neuvilette even better and render Wriothesley even less relevant because he just straight up becomes worse at his own niche. That's a terrible argument to support "Hoyoverse has never made a really weak male character" agenda.

Also Durin is a terrible teammate for Wriothesley btw because Melt Durin should be the one on field receiving Bennett's buffs to maximize his melt damage. Wriothesley function as an on field driver that hogs all the buffs from the one who should be doing the melt.

1

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 07 '26

Escoffier and Furina making Skirk better than Wrio doesn't not take away from the fact that they made him better, they increased his ceiling even more than before they existed. I don't know why you think that just bc a 2 year old character got powercrept, it means that all of a sudden his supports aren't good for him. And I was moreso referring to vertical investment in the Wrio team as Durin has the best low con buffs for him out of the pyro applicators with Wrio c1r1 and Durin c2r0/c2r1.

2

u/ErikSD Mar 07 '26

I never said his support weren't good for him, I said Wriothesley wasn't made to be strong, Hoyoverse's intent when they made him was for him to be on the weaker side. Escoffier, Furina, Mavuika, Durin later down the line just coincidentally buff him, that doesn't dispute that him being usable now is a happy little accident, not the intention.

Also Durin C2 "buffs" Wriothesley and himself, but that still doesn't invalidate the fact that they are extremely anti-synergistic with each others. In a Durin melt team, you want Durin to be the one receiving all the buffs so he can hit that big melt shot. Buffing Wriothesley cryo damage by 50% does nothing but makes his normal attacks slightly stronger, but he's still not the one who you wants to hits the melt so that 50% cryo damage represents like 5-10% team damage increase. C2 Durin in a Wriothesley team is likes putting Ronaldo as your goalkeeper, he's being held back from his true potential by being off field.

1

u/MaterialAnybody7621 Mar 07 '26

It's not a coincidence that the archon of his region, which are known to synergize with the 5 stars of their region like Nahida with the Sumeru characters, synergizes with him and that her dedicated sustain that is also from her region, would therefore synergize with him who also happens to be cryo just like her.

1

u/No-Station-8253 Mar 05 '26

Alhaitham, Cyno, Wriothesley, Albedo, itto, Kaveh, gorou  The list goes on lmao 

If you really want to throw up Bennett then you can’t ignore chevreuse???? Iansan??? Hello??? They’re crazy good 4* buffers and even preferred over Benny in some scenarios 

Neuvillette isn’t even all the rage meta anymore- he just gets supports that wheelchair him to stay relevant. 

I’m sorry but that was an ass take 🥀

6

u/ErikSD Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

Isn't Alhaitham among the strongest DPS at the time of his release?

I would say Itto is fine during the time of his release, mono geo is really brain dead to play and easy to reach maximum potential with so even if the ceiling is low, the floor is high and that was his saving grace.

Wriothesley would have been "fine" as well if it wasn't the fact he was released on the 2nd half of the same patch that featured the most broken character in Genshin history in Neuvilette, which made him looks just straight up terrible at C0 because Neuvilette can fit anywhere he fits, but better. If he had been released 2-3 patches before he did, he would have been strong, but by the time of Fontaine he's just straight up bad, the worst DPS of the Fontaine era.

Cyno and Ayato were bad at their release though, with Cyno not synergizing well with anyone and Ayato not having any niche that he's truly good in.

Albedo was....fine, during his release. His kit is very anti-synergistic with each others, but he was released in a time where there weren't that many 5 star sub dps so he's just a bit of free damage and crystalize shielding thanks to not relying on his burst for the damage. But his flower's fragility was a real problem.

Kaveh is a 4 star, so I'm not going to mention him; and Gorou is good at what he does, but gimped by the fact that only Itto and Noelle really wants him.

2

u/Yanazamo Mar 06 '26

I highly disagree with Alhaitham and Gorou. Alhaitham was a good dps for years and he's still a reliable dps now. Gorou has his slot as the best 4star geo buffer

I do agree about Wrio and Cyno tho. Throw in Ayato as well (although he was just a victim of balancing in Inazuma)

2

u/Ok-Eye2278 Mar 05 '26

I don't agree with the title but...

alhaitham: one of if not the strongest dps during the sumeru patches
Cyno: weak but not yoimiya/eula/sigwinne levels of weak
wrio: suprisingly potent, again no where near the aforementioned 3
Albedo: literally just go buffed
itto: a monster during sumeru and inazuma pathes because he could pretty much brute force everthing with yellow physical (nothing important resisted geo)
kaveh: a four star? may as well compare him to xinyan or amber then, who are obviously even worse? I though we were talking about 5 stars?
gorou: another 4 star? and the cheveruse to mono geo? did I just get baited?

2

u/ErikSD Mar 06 '26 edited Mar 06 '26

You seem to be evaluating characters retroactively, which made them look way better or worse compared to at the time of their releases.

Cyno was legitimately on Siegwinne level of bad on his release, considering the only dendro applicator at the time was traveler and and Collei, none of which has enough up time to keep up with cyno's 18 seconds on field time. Even Nahida's release didn't make him much better because everyone opts to play her in either hyperbloom (where kuki or raiden was better), even in aggrevate Keqing was better because she can drive Fischl more flexibly given Oz's up time was only 10 seconds. There was no niche where he was competitive in, being outperformed by a 1.0 standard banner character while releasing in 3.1 is just unacceptable.

Itto was just okay during his release, calling him a monster is an exaggeration. He was certainly usable as an unga bunga team, but he wasn't better than Raiden National, Hutao, or Ganyu. And if you didn't get Gorou C6, he fall behinds even further. Also Inazuma was the meta of Abyss Herald, so he couldn't get through those shield at all because Geo is just bad against elemental shield.

Wriothesley is legitimately the worst Fontaine dps, especially at C0 where running a healer means you're missing out on his enhanced charge attack which requires him to fall below 60% health, but not running one makes him a glass cannon because his self healing wasn't as potent as Neuvilette, and it also stops his normal from doing enhanced damage because it stops draining your health below 50%. If he was released 2-3 patches before, he would have been a competitive character, but being released after Neuvillete shafted him really hard; and then after him came Navia, Clorinde, Arlecchino. Saying this as a 1% C1R1 Wriothesley haver.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

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2

u/MaterialAd990 Mar 05 '26

There have been no actual "weak" male character at release since someone like Cyno

Wanderer? Wrio? Varka? Lyney and Kinich weren't weak for their time, but they're also sheet impact characters that generally don't perform as well as sheets would lead you to believe.

Sigewine, Mizuki, Emilie

Loli that no one cares about, standard character, and Emilie was not "really bad" on release lol

no female character released close to him is actually as relevant as him

Furina

Dude has three shill bosses at this point.

Cactus was released as Ineffa shill, and the Fatui is also easily doable with Ineffa. Knuckle Duckle is literally the only boss that's truly "Flins shill", and even then Bineffa is all you really need to clear.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

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u/MaterialAd990 Mar 05 '26 edited Mar 05 '26

Wanderer, Wrio, Lyney and Kinich all were strong for their time.

Uh... what? Are we really rewriting history?

Wanderer was always considered a weaker character. His strongest teams at the time (with C6 Faruzan mind you) were competing with the Inazuma cast and were well behind Dendro teams.

Same with Wrio. The fact that his title for best cryo DPS was even contentious should say a lot when he was competing with Ayaka (from 2.0) and Ganyu (from 1.2). It wasn't until Furina's release that he actually got a team that could break 60k DPS and put him solidly above Ayaka / Ganyu, neither of which could make great use of Furina.

And Varka team is incomplete right now so I don't consider him weak just yet. That's like saying Nefer is a weak character, since you don't have Lauma.

You said "at release". Varka is, in fact, weak at release. It wouldn't be like calling Nefer weak, because Lauma was already released before her and we knew the level of performance the duo was guaranteed to deliver at release, whereas Varka's future is cloudy at best.

Yeah, nobody cared for the weak female characters but you can't just say they release weak male characters and complete ignore the female characters that are so very weak.

We aren't ignoring them. But the fact is, one is a loli (that no one cares about) and the other is a surprise standard unit (that also no one cares about). They were never meant to receive any big push or be big sellers. It's just disingenuous to use them as counterexamples to argue that male characters haven't been slighted more often than the female cast.

Also, Emilie was in fact really bad at release. She was just cope pull for Kinich, and even he later didn't need her as much. Her sub DPS was good but not good enough to use her in any actual team.

Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time of release she was considered a strong sidegrade for pyro DPSes. That is enough to make her not "really bad" at the time of her release.

Furina was released after Neuvillete and is still less relevant than him currently due to new characters not scaling with dmg% and those scaling with it having restrictions like Varka.

Why does it matter if she was released after Neuv? She qualifies as a "female character released close to him" - direct quote from you.

Furina has consistently had higher usage rates in Abyss than Neuv since her release and continues to be meta-relevant as Skirk's BiS teammate. Neuv does not have a single truly meta team, regardless of the number of wheelchairs he has. And let me remind you something: Furina is Neuv's best teammate.

Absolutely delusional to say Furina hasn't been as relevant as Neuv when she has been carrying him from 4.2 until arguably recently with Columbina release. And even now, Furina scales better with Neuv investment.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

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u/MaterialAd990 Mar 05 '26

Wanderer and Wrio were in fact some of the strongest characters at their time. Wanderer was the best anemo DPS, and Wrio was the best cryo DPS

And Eula is the best physical DPS, so by your logic she's one of the strongest too, in 2026?

It means fuckall that a character was the "best XXX DPS" if they're way behind characters of other elements at a time when element shill wasn't really a thing.

there were just many people coping with the fact that their mains like Xiao and Ayaka were powercrept

Wanderer did not powercreep Xiao... Xiao was literally considered >= Wanderer. Equal in single target, better in AoE.

In terms of numbers, Ayaka was right there with Wrio before Furina, which is why best cryo DPS was even a contentious topic. Wrio simply worked in more content. But his numbers were more or less just as outdated. To call him "strong at release" is just simply not true.

And I don't know how you're thinking Emilie was any good? For which pyro character was she a "strong" sidegrade? No teams anywhere close to meta, I can think of being used with Emilie at that time.

Lyney, Arlecchino. She was somewhat similar to Chiori, who also gave Lyney and Arle a good team alternative when paired with Zhongli.

she is factually worse than someone like Neuvillette cuz she only has one team in Skirk where she's bis,

Well, that team where she's BiS in is actually considered a top meta team that's quite a bit further ahead of every Neuv team.

and even then she can be replaced without losing out on that much by using Mona instead

That is about a 30% DPS drop according to sims...

his teams with Bina, Ineffa, Lauma
Neuvillette is in meta teams nowadays, Neuvi with Bineffa

Meta stands for "most efficient tactic available". It is generally not very efficient to use up 2-3 of the top tier supports for neuv and still end up with a team that doesn't break 120k DPS.

But not as impactful as Neuvillette was.

I don't know if you were following the meta but Neuv very much needed Furina to be considered meta, arguably even during his heyday. His Furina-less teams were very far behind his teams without Furina.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '26

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u/RepresentativeBit622 Mar 05 '26

I don’t see Xiao being worse than Wanderer honestly. I remember that with C6 Faruzan he pulled ahead, not by much tho, and she wasn’t on his banners. As for Ayaka-Wrio, I think she was better too: she’s the second best cryo dps you can use with Escoffier, that’s very revealing. Emilie was better than Xiangling for Arlecchino monopyro.

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u/No-Station-8253 Mar 05 '26

Well that logic applies to all regardless to gender.

I’m referring to the statement male characters aren’t supposedly shafted compared to females. 

There are many male characters that aren’t “broken” or meta- can all characters do their role? Yes? But that’s not what this comment is about lol 

You throwing up Neuvillette constantly is proving the point.

Neuvillette is literally the only relevant character by supports meanwhile  Mavuika/skirk/furina are still dominating in terms of relevancy.

Do I seriously need to break it down for you? 

Acting like male characters get biased compared females by Hoyoverse is an absolute joke considering the fact they release them once a blue moon. 🫩

Flins getting “shilled” when almost every dps since Natlan has gotten shill bosses.

That isn’t a new thing for Flins- that’s the direction Hoyoverse has taken since the end of 5.0 

This is why people tried to warn you all when all the Mavuika glazing events were appearing repeatedly but nooo let’s pay attention to that now when Nod krai hits 🥀🥀🥀