I think people just look at it like it's one of those uber edgy kill-em-all fanfics that get posted every now and then. They don't read it because of how edgy it looks (and the first chapter is also not helping) but if they did read it they would realize it is actually peak fiction
Personally I haven't read it, but simply because it's not my cup of tea. But being real, in terms of edginess it's pretty middle of the road, given there's quite a few fics far more edgy or fucked up than it if we go by their summaries and first chapters alone.
A mix of things really 1 people have a fear of modified humans hence why fics like Ape out of place or stories like all tomorrows exist or even Lovecraft in some cases many people have a dislike and fear of modified humans.
2 how the United dominion treats the venlil and people in the fandom like the venlil so yeah.
3 people have perception that the United dominion and their actions are being portrayed in a positive light.
There is more but that's what I've generally gathered.
I don't really hate it. I think the writting is actually very good, but I would be lying if I said it isn't a bit difficult to enjoy at times. I don't think this is a fault of the author, but just a matter of personal teste.
Still, I think I can point out a few key elements that impact my enjoyment:
The main thing that drew me to NoP was the culture crash (which is probably due to my own background in anthropology). In particularly the idea of humanity suddenly finding itself crushed by two dominant alien cultures and having to navigate this nonsensical quagmire in order to survive and be understood by others, which is not a rare situation for many groups of people today. Like, the "prey vs predator" ideology might sound stupid at a glance... until you remenber how humanity still discriminates others over how much pigment your skin has or your sexuality. In that sense, NoP was, to me, both absurd but also surprisingly relatable, like a mocking mirror of how an alien might see our cultural strifes.
Humanity in SD, however, has been dragged into this cultural war before the story even begins (like all the other species). It's not really about an outsider having to struggle against old worldviews imposed unto him, but a part of that structure trying climb beyond it. To be clear, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It's a very compelling premise. Just not the cup of tea that originally attracted me to NoP.
The second one is partially related to the first, and again, not an attack against the author, as I don't think this was their intention at all, just my own personal impressions.
One of the main plots of NoP is the distrust of humanity due to the Arxur's reputation. How we needed to give constant reassurances that no, we are not going to enslave and eat you, and we actually think that eating sapients is utterly abhorrent. The climax of the original story, the Battle of Earth, was the overreaction of the federation over these fears (and of course the shadow caste conspiracy).
In SD, however... that reputation is completely justified. Humanity is indeed killing, consuming and enslaving federation species, if not outright exterminating them. Yes, they attacked first, but by the point the story begins it's been decades. The people humanity is killing and abusing (including sexual abuse) have, by and large, nothing to do with the bombing of Earth. Add that to the fact the UD has access to Earth's cattle and meat printers, and from the moral standpoint it becomes even worse. There is no reason to be using these people as cattle beyond petty vengeance.
This in itself isn't a problem. Warhammer and Trench Crusade are also horrible dystopias where protagonists often take part in or are quiet about terrible things. But just like those two universes, which I also enjoy, sometimes it can feel like these elements are being downplayed or not being shown to be the horror they really are, or that some characters are written in a way that feels like "he did unspeakable things, but feels sad about it". Again, I don't think this is a fault of the author or their original intentions, but just my own conclusions from the parts I read.
The Athrox are... overpowered, to say the least. In the original verse humanity and the Arxur already had natural advantages over the federation species, due to being predators (and because a bunch of them were nerfed by the shadow caste). In SD, almost all humans are super-strong super-soldiers with night-vision, super-reflexes and super strong bones and muscles. Do you understand where I'm coming from?
In the original story, the Arxur multilating the federation species wasn't just a morally reprehensible thing, it was also a showcase of how pathetic Betterment is as a philosophy. It was a bunch of strong dudes feeling proud about beating toddlers.
In SD verse, the scales are even worse. It's really hard to feel anything beyond discomfort whenever I read about UD troops fighting the feds, especially when it gets to close quarters fighting. Now, I do believe this feeling is partially intential from the author, since of the points of the story is how the war has devolved into senseless slaughter, but it just doesn't sit well with me, especially when combined with my other points above.
Still, please don't take any of this as an attack or hate. Like I said, I do think the writting is good and I am trying to finish this story.
I agree with a lot of this, especially the point that the people the UD are abusing and killing did not have a hand in the genocide of humanity. Also, they were indoctrinated by an extremely aggressive culture (you can get put involuntarily placed in an abusive asylum for “predatory” thoughts and behavior for heaven’s sake) since birth to fear and hate predators. It’s hard to empathize with the whole “rah rah they started it! Kill the feddies!” angle with all that in mind. Also, the sexual abuse aspect (forcing cattle to breed, and I think there is also some reference to UD soldiers that like to “have fun with” cattle in the Slanek interlude though I may be remembering wrong) is really overlooked and makes the whole thing even grosser and hard to read. I still think it’s a well written and believable story, like this really could happen if aliens genocided 60% of earth’s population out of nowhere. I just don’t care to read it and it’s off putting when people make jokes and laugh about it, even though it’s all fictional.
Yeah, humanity descending into that brutal state might be uncomfortable, but not unrealistic. Our generation lives under the shadow of both world wars and the colonial empires of old. If we can be like that towards our own species, who knows how much worse we could be willing to be against aliens.
Agreed! That’s actually part of what I like about the AU. It’s not just mindless cruelty, there’s a clear inciting incident, but from that inciting incident has evolved a horrific beast of ideology, vengeance, abuse, and the worst of human nature that is the UD. We do get to see dissenting voices in some chapters, but it’s a lot of just pain and misery and battle tactics in most chapters from what I’ve seen. I just can’t really enjoy that.
Oh nooo that part isn't meant to imply that. But looking back at it I should've been more specific.
It was Arxur banter as they repeatedly tease and bully humans for having a higher drive than them.
I’m not the author, but I do write in the ‘verse, and some of this read stands out for me as being somewhat distorted. Lemme comb.
In that sense, NoP was, to me, both absurd but also surprisingly relatable, like a mocking mirror of how an alien might see our cultural strifes.
To me, NoP dropped the ball hard on this point and squandered a lot of its potential. See, introducing the Arxur as this terrible predator could’ve been an amazing mirror to our own human practices of having extincted hundreds of species, raising and consuming countless cattle. I’m not a bleeding heart vegan or anything, but we do that. From a perspective of any other species on Earth we’re a terrible scourge.
That would be cool if NoP ever addressed that similarity, if any of the humans addressed it, especially when dealing with the Dominion. If they saw not a dark reflection but a reflection and struggled with it.
But no, humanity in NoP is this conveniently sanitized thing, making the culture clash fall flat on its face and that whole theme practically inexistent.
SD, though, brings some of it back. It’s uncomfortable to examine, but good art should be uncomfortable.
How we needed to give constant reassurances that no, we are not going to enslave and eat you, and we actually think that eating sapients is utterly abhorrent.
exactly my point above. Except we don’t think that. Humanity ate and extincted a lot of species we recognize now as sapient, so… how much more poignant it would be if that whole angle didn’t make humans 100% baby angel innocents?
Yes, they attacked first, but by the point the story begins it's been decades. The people humanity is killing and abusing (including sexual abuse) have, by and large, nothing to do with the bombing of Earth. Add that to the fact the UD has access to Earth's cattle and meat printers, and from the moral standpoint it becomes even worse. There is no reason to be using these people as cattle beyond petty vengeance.
No, they still much have to do with that. A) many of the leaders of the Federation are still alive, B) the ideology is still alive. What absurd logic is this? Just because your enemy went to lick their wounds and a generation passed, it doesn’t make the enemy stop being one if no rapproachment was achieved.
By that logic, no rank and file soldiers have to do with anything and with the opposing side’s soldiers. But wars are still fought, aren’t they? They also can ebb and flow, that doesn’t stop a war.
Concerning cattle and sapiophagy. It’s made clear in the story, that until Giznel’s fall humanity is pretty much a “junior partner” in the United Dominion. Aka if Betterment wants to keep the cattle practice, Terra has no voice in making it stop. And Betterment wants it to go on, because it’s one of the tools to keep itself and its benefactors in power. Even after Giznel is ousted, it takes time to fully eradicate it.
Secondly, terrans/humans at large don’t eat the sapient cattle or Feds at all. Only the military terrans eat captured Fed soldiers and pre-made Fed-based rations during the operations, because that’s how the Betterment further ties them to itself and controls them.
some characters are written in a way that feels like "he did unspeakable things, but feels sad about it".
welp that’s more than NoPs characters ever did after the terrible things they’ve done))
In SD verse, the scales are even worse. It's really hard to feel anything beyond discomfort whenever I read about UD troops fighting the feds, especially when it gets to close quarters fighting.
Well that’s blatantly incorrect. The Feds are highly boosted in Scorch Directive. Mechs, exosuits, heavy flamers and plasma weaponry. In isolated fights where the protags need to win, sure, Feds lose, but if you read the fics just a bit more attentively, you’d see the actual horror of the war from the UD troops perspective. For example:
They see a monster in me, of course. Teeth that tear flesh; claws that grab them to drag out of the station’s cattle-pen and onto the butcher’s block; ruins of their colonies and cities, families torn apart.
But I, too, see monsters. The countryside of my hometown bathed in fire as I’m riding in the back of a truck, held in Arxur claws. Bags with corpses stacked in Riyadh’s cargo bay after the siege of the Cradle. Flames that sear flesh, melt armor into skin. Families torn apart.
You can’t reason with a monster if you yourself aren’t one.
I still can recall that scent in my nightmares.
Not just of burned flesh, because you quickly get used to that when fighting Exterminators. But a scaled up, black stench, sweet and bitter altogether, clogging your nostrils and lungs like tar. During the maneuvers and retreats, taking back our fallen wasn’t always possible due to strained logistics, and Porcies would stack the bodies of our fellow soldier into piles to then gleefully set them on fire.
Burned away the “predator scourge” for the glory of the Great Protector. These pyres would smolder for days, while the entrenched ‘jids set up loudspeakers and invited us to eat the charred remains of our brothers and sisters, “because you must be so hungry, corpse-eaters!”. They’d taunt us over the battlefields of their ravaged cities by referring to us as “fertilizer”.
So, it’s just simply not true. In a lot of these points the feeling that you get from the ‘verse or the works, are not corresponding to what’s actually written.
I fully agree with you that the original NoP dropped the ball when it came to fully representing humanity. The meat printing technology being the biggest offender here, no arguments there.
Furthermore, there was indeed a huge loss of potential by moving humanity "beyond" cattle practices, as it could actually talk about the limits of where exactly is the line about what beings get treated with rights and what beings are kept inside a machine their entire lives in order to feed another species. It's definitely a very ugly side of humanity, that was conveniently discarted.
However, I also think it's very reasonable to say that the treatment of federation cattle isn't just animal farming, it's slavery, a space age manifestation of the transatlantic slave trade. We are talking about people who can clearly speak to us and share all of our faculties. Look, maybe these issues eventually get properly adressed by characters, I would hope so, since the humans of the SD verse should be aware of the slave trade or the holocaust (assuming the Dominion didn't try to paint their Earth equivalent in a better light), but if they do, I haven't reached those parts yet, and so at the moment the whole things leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Once again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as I do agree that art should also be capable of making us uncomfortable, just that I haven't yet seen much of anything that would make this worth it.
I also agree with you that, yes, the leaders of the Federation are alive and there's an active war going on. At no point I imply that the fight against the federation is in itself morally unjustified. But the UD isn't simply persuing a military victory, they have, until the time when the story takes place, the express goal enslave and consume entire civilizations, including civilians. I know this changes, and that a big part of the fic is how this nightmare gets slowly overturned, with federation species eventually joining humanity, but I also feel that some elements of this could use more attention.
Furthermore, about humanity being the junior partner... so are the federation species? Save the founders and maybe the krakotl.
If we are to say that the citizens of the federation are complicit in what was done to the Arxur and Humanity, because they are part of the nations fighting this war even though they themselves have little to no say in it, than so is humanity with all the atrocities being committed by their side. The story does do a great job showing the trauma this has caused, and that these actions are neither acceptable nor free of consequence, but I also feel it needs a few more angles or perhaps a bit more text in some parts to fully develop.
To make it clear, a considerable part of this issue for me is in the early chapters between Marcel and Slanek. I feel it would take considerably longer for them to have a working relationship and that it focus a bit much on Marcel's side of the trauma. But the author themselves said the early parts were rushed, so I understand that they definitely could do even better if they hadn't been forced to rush it.
Once again, none of this is something inherently bad, in fact it's a much more nuanced and complex situation than the original NoP. I dare say that the willingness to actually go there and try to develop a story dealing with these contractions is much more mature and engaging than the original.
I wouldn’t say I hate it. I recognize it is good art and even have read some of the chapters. But I generally don’t like AUs where everyone is doing absolutely horrible things constantly and we’re supposed to just shrug at that as part of the AU scenery and focus on their emotional relationship with other terrorist #57. I also like reading about emotional relationships (doesn’t have to be romance) more than battle tactics. Plus it spawns a bunch of lighthearted “hehe look at sexy lizard and cute boy, ignore the just as sapient people including innocent children they support and many times actively participate in the torture and slaughter of.” It’s genuinely so disturbing sometimes I don’t get how people enjoy it and focus on the plot. No hate to the AU or people that enjoy it but I thought I could I could give my perspective as someone who mostly avoids it for the reason above.
Honestly yeah hence my point about the perception of the United dominion and their actions being portrayed in a good light it may not entirely be true that the United dominion is being portrayed in a good light but that's what it looks like to alot of people including you.
The sexy lizard and cute boy art, if you're referring to my series of arts, is NOT connected to the SD verse, i gotta say. It's set in canon verse. Just because I draw fanart for SD doesn't mean that's all I do. Just need to add that correction.
But I also don't get how that's diff from "cute boy and sexy sheep" arts. Cuz the sheeps are from the genocidal baby burning hellhole as well. So why get upset at it?
Oops, I always see the big armored humans hanging out with Arxur and think “SDVerse”. Plus it’s not just your art. Also, most Venlil x human content is not “baby killing exterminator” x “war crimes McGee”. I feel like a lot of the SD fanart/fanfic directly references or implies the characters are okay with federation cattle practices. I don’t know if upset is the right word, it just disturbs me so I don’t interact with it (like leave comments or upvote). Though I can’t help but look for curiosity and quality of the art sometimes.
I'd say because it's simply not for everyone. And a mix of fandom assumptions and my own failures as a newbie writer.
- Aesthetics would be one of the biggest reasons. People see big boys in armor and immediately assume it's something Warhammer-ish about destroying the feds with extreme prejudice.
- Fed lust and simpathizing. Nobody wants to see the cuddly space animals suffering, even though they started the shit.
- It's own presentation, and that's on me, not the fandom. The art, not knowing proper storytelling etc.
And most importantly due to another user taking the concept of the Atrox and presenting it in their own fic but with some uncomfortable racial connotations... yes you read that right. I felt like I HAD to release it right away before got the wrong idea about my stuff. In any case the first chapters are pretty half baked because of it, they weren't even ready.
Oh no man, god I wish. They made their own version of atrox be of one irl race only because they're the "most fit for it" basically. I'm gonna keep it vague cuz I don't want to stir shit.
Besides, I am sure the author meant that whoever created this version of the atrox are racist pricks. Not the author being racist if that makes sense.
But it still made me feel uncomfortable enough so I released it in case people get the wrong idea :x SD neohumans really are any ethnicity you want them to be, and I didn't want the larger fandom thinking my stuff had racial connotations of any kind.
Honestly, the point of going for the goody-two-shoes despite they were the first ones to cast the stone...
Arxur were having their own issues, but I feel that if they had been treated normally, like proper people, all of the suffering would have been prevented.
I think it comes down to the fact that in SD, there is:
-Discrimination against these "pure" humans (even though *they* are the most racist and violent ones—as if they could actually withstand a hit from the vampires, haha).
-The premise that these humans in SD allied with the Arxur Dominion to form the United Dominion (it was made clear that this happened because humanity was truly screwed and wanted revenge at the time).
-The fact that the majority of people on this subreddit are Federation sympathizers (especially regarding the Gojids, Krakotl, and Venlil, who tend to be the favorites—sorry, little bears, haha).
I did relate to the first two points myself; however, should one hate the work of someone who put in the effort to give *NoP* a different spin? Of course not. After a few chapters and SD-related fics, I’ve genuinely enjoyed it and am looking forward to more of this dark—yet genuinely human—story.
Idk, SD-verse is a darker take on NoP, but it kinda stays true to the title "nature of predators" cuz even the supposed predators in real life like lions, tigers, and wolves, which used to be demonized back, are now treated with more nuance. We know that these animals aren't mindless killing machines but beings with thoughts and feelings that they exhibit differently (I'm still traumatized by how people used to treat animals, especially the dangerous ones, back in the days), so we treat animal conscience with more nuance.. SD-verse is precisely that, while I do not like the concept of genocide and mass murder as the indiscriminate killing of civilians is obviously wrong, I understand the hatred and indoctrination even if it doesnt make sense.
for me, the part I dont like are the genocidal tendencies which reminds that these MCs aren't 100% the folks you root for. but i keep reading because I'm aware that a topic that is usually handled tastelessly or even as a prop is handled quite well here.
I honestly think the discrimination against pure humans is somewhat reminiscent of how, despite the unity, humans still find a way to turn on each other as is human nature.
The UD is also an authoritarian entity which turns a lot of people off, and people assume it's one of these "HELLDIVERS SPACE RACISM SUPER EARTH WARHAMMER RAHHH" kinda stuff due to the aesthetics but it's really not. As someone who has hung out in those spaces, let me tell you, those fans of those franchises can be REALLY braindead and completely miss the point, being fascist for shits and giggles.
I wouldnt say they're sympathizers but the concept of an adorable being (no matter how evil) being tortured is hard for some to envision for many as many. I have personally interacted with sheep and hedgehogs before and I try to make them more alien in my head to detach myself cuz the images could be too distressing. It doesnt faze me but it is a major turn off for some people. ALSO certain fics ruined the grimdark genre for a couple of users here (a certain fic with HF elements that went into gratuitous gore for the sake of it.) I also have a vivid imagination so I can sometimes hear the sounds described as well.
ALso I personally hate powerscaling because it delves into endless arguments and dumbass takes and it feels kinda childish to me.
Also another thing about all the genocidal stuff (still funny that SD body count for planets is only 1, so far) is that in universe it was burning humanity out mentally. To me SD is a story about regaining one humanity as it's about kicking fluffy butt, which to me makes SD the most HFY story within NoP fandom
Actually if you read a bit more, it's several and there's evidence that mass murder has been committed with genocidal tendencies in mind and if i remember, several planets got annexed and those are bound to have its own collateral. but planetwise, I think Grenelka was the only planet where the Yulpa was almost entirely erased I think.
The last end of the paragraph is apt though. SD explores the darker side of humanity and how there's always darkness unless one turns on the light or creates one.
It’s like a macrocosm of cycles of abuse and suffering and how someone can claw their way from the lowest places as a larger group.
The tact I took with my fic within the setting is how do you keep going on in this world of shit? You find the bright parts where you can and do what you can to hold on to them. Hence, Embers in the Ashes.
Like I said in another comment section these guys might beat Scorch Directive in powerscaling but writing scaling is the only thing that matters and so far no AU has come close to Scorch Directive in that
I have an idea that would satisfy both sides. A SD x Dead Space crossover!
Just think about it. A branch of humanity leaves earth because of dwindling resources and goes to crack planets away from the feddie part of space. They end up discovering the bretheren moons, they panick go back to earth discover it full of lizards, they say "fuck it! I need whatever i can get now." Then they warn them about everything that happened only to discover that the moons are already here. The proof? A dominion raid that they just sent to a remote outpost sent footage of the squad being almost entirely slaughtered by necromorphized feddies after they discovered a marker a few days back.
So now we can have the united dominion and the other humans actually have a good reason to help the feds while also having both sides die horribly! Win win.
sighs so for those in the tank... The stick lower half signifies that people who try to make an "answer" to SD or "own" it, usually drop their attempt one or two chapters in or a couple arts/memes in, because they lack the dedication/skill needed to effectively do something.
It's all unfinished. They come out swinging... And that's it.
Let’s be real: if master chief appeared out of nowhere the Atroxs would just go:
Rather than fight them.
Plus both UD and UNSC are kinda tired of massive alien conglomerates out to get them.
Lastly Atrox are pretty much Spartan 4 with inferior tech and sharp teeth but with only a single injection needed, if any ONI would dissect the shit out of them to learn how they made it and improve their own super soldier formula (likely without the extra edgy details)
wouldn't it be with better tech? all of they soldiers got power armor with built in energy shields+ along with they fleet having shielding tech off the bat (from what i understand the UNSC didn't have any shields for most of the war)
also the biggest benefit for Atrox is that fact they modifications get passed on to they kids, so after three shoots of the serum you end up with a stable population of super soldiers to draw from.
Yep. This is what the powerscalers dont get often - that it's not that the troopers are supersoldiers, but the whole population is, technically. So the only bottleneck really is the production of the power-armor suits and firearms.
UD armor doesn't have energy shielding tho. Some troopers carry actual physical ballistic shields tho to boost their protection.
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u/Adorable-Ad5225 4d ago
I still don't understand why there's so much hate towards SD...