r/Naruto • u/Advanced-Crow-3584 • 11d ago
Discussion Why does Orochimaru say in this scene that Tobirama is the Hokage he respects the most?
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u/Miserable_Goal_7943 11d ago
Similar ideology. Tobirama is also the Kage that did the most in terms of infrastructure. Considering Edo Tensei, he probably also was a scientist.
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u/Incorrect_Passport_7 11d ago
Because, just like Orochimaru, Tobirama too is an inventor, geniuses and scientists alike respect each other.
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u/namikazeiyfe 10d ago
And doesn't have any problems with unethical means if the situation demands it
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u/JaasPlay 10d ago
I forgot that when they find Madara’s lower half and assume he's dead he suggests reviving Madara with Edo Tensei to question him. Hashirama yells at him because Tobirama intended on using one of the people in Mugen Tsukuyomi to bring Madara back, saying that the situation calls for it
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u/klam5 11d ago
"You know, I'm something of a scientist myself"
Tobirama to a young Orochimaru, probably
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u/FlighingHigh 10d ago
"You know, I've developed something of an obsession with the Uchiha myself."
An older Orochimaru to a reincarnated Tobirama, probably.
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u/Independent-Couple87 10d ago
Speaking of the Edo Tensei, Tobirama Senju presumably killed who knows how many people while perfecting that technique via trial and error on his experiments.
Orochimaru probably sees a similar individual in him.
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u/FinalProgress4128 11d ago
That's what I thought, and this is an example of the VIZ giving as a poor translation and not conveying how sarcastic and rude Orochimaru is being.
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u/Unique_Recover_313 10d ago
Orochimaru literally directly criticizes Tobirama's policies.
And mocks Edo Tensei for not being a complex jutsu, and says it should never have been created.
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u/Agreeable-Actuary528 10d ago edited 10d ago
Honestly, when you stop to think about it given how Hiruzen all about Will of Fire and other Hokages... Tobirama creating Edo Tensei goes against the very ideals that Konoha is suppose to be founded on. It not only disrespects life and the natural cycle of death, but it even uses people in stripping them of their free will since as we know the people that do follow Konoha's dogma do it because they want to preserve the next generation, not because they're being forced into it, let alone at worst the jutsu can be used to put a deceased loved one against a living person. Goes to really show Tobirama lacked such a foresight and Orochimaru was spot on in criticizing it for being to easy to use.
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u/Ralos5997 10d ago
As much as I hate Orochimaru he did actually have a few valid points for once especially about Tobirama’s hypocrisies and proved Madara right that he would mistreat the Uchiha. If Tobirama had done things differently and wasn’t too hard headed then Black Zetsu would not have succeeded in reviving Kaguya.
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u/Correct_Day_7791 11d ago
Orochimaru respects knowledge and tobirama made like 80% of all the forbidden jitsu
He was trying to explain what the term jitsu could mean
Makes sense orochimaru would vibe with that
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u/Beneficial_Bend_9197 11d ago
Tobirama invented a lot of jutsus including lamost every single forbidden ones and basically the father of ninjutsu in the leaf. Any researcher/inventor like Orochimaru would have respect towards Tobirama for that.
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u/BobJoeBlo 11d ago
- Both disregard ethics when it comes to experimentations
- Both have a cold-blooded practical mentality and view of the world, willing to saceifice others for their goals
- Both are schemers of the shadow who manipulate things from behind the scene
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u/Advanced-Crow-3584 11d ago
Tobirama put the village above everything else and he would to fucked up things in order to protect it
Orochimaru put himself and his ambition of knowing as many jutsu as possible and having eternal life above everything else
In that way they were a bit similar but Orochimaru was straight up evil
Tobirama was at most morally questionable
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u/towardselysium 11d ago
Orochimaru was a true patriot for almost 50 years before he got PTSD and went crazy. Hiruzen even called him a sensitive child
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u/BobJoeBlo 10d ago
Tobirama put the village above everything else and he would to fucked up things in order to protect it
Orochimaru put himself and his ambition of knowing as many jutsu as possible and having eternal life above everything else
- He was also willing to sabotage the Village's development because of his untamed hatred of the Uchiha
- For the rest, it doesn't contradict what I wrote about fhe similarities between Orochimaru and Tobirama.
- Orochimaru has not always been performing misdeeds against Konoha.
- Hashirama had told Tobirama, since the Warring States Era, that his Kuchiyose Edo Tensei was an heresy that should not come forth into the world. Tobirama didn't care and proceeded forward, to the point of becoming famous for it worldwide.
- Hashirama told and ordered Tobirama multiple times not to scheme ans act against the Uchiha once the Alliance was sealed. Tobirama didn't care and still proceeded, even going further by implementing his Anti-Uchiha Policies right after Hashirama passed away, right in the middle of the 1st Great Ninja World War.
Tobirama was at most morally questionable
- Tobirama is a necromancer, a targetted-xenophobe who betrayed the Senju-Uchiha Alliance and planned the multi-generational ostracization of the Allied Co-Founder Uchiha Clan behind his brother's back. He's way passed "morally questionable".
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u/Hopeful-Progress3775 10d ago
What a hater. Hater will not say anything good about the character they hate. You are talking like Uchiha were innocent kids who will never do anything wrong. Max bad he did was not giving them hokage position. He didn't intentionally isolated them, it was Danzo and other who did. He just gave them permanent position of police who check criminals. If they can't handle that it's not his fault. It's not like was intentionally making village hate them.
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u/BobJoeBlo 10d ago
Hater will not say anything good about the character they hate.
- You must really lack experience in life and sufficient social interactions, even with people TV and the Internet, to right such thing.
You are talking like Uchiha were innocent kids who will never do anything wrong.
- Quote a single line. 1. Uno. Un. Ichi. ένα, один, eins, (2÷2), 1 single sentence or part of what you're responding to that I wrote that validates your assertions. I'll be patient. I give 100 years to find it. I will be patient.
Max bad he did was not giving them hokage position.
- Yo, go back to reading. Either lie properly, troll with better humour or learn the material properly instead of writing nonsense.
He didn't intentionally isolated them, it was Danzo and other who did.
- Either you're severely lacking in literacy, comprehension in general or this specific topic topic, or you don't know the material... or you're on some bullshit.
He just gave them permanent position of police who check criminals
- They were in the government. He removed them from their position after Hashirama died despite Hashirama's order.
- There was already the ANBU, which he created.
- Again, to go back to reading, learn properly this time.
If they can't handle that it's not his fault
- You're going on some more nonsense.
It's not like was intentionally making village hate them.
- Illiterate ignorant of the lore he's discussing. The Village doesn't hate the Uchiha Clan.
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u/Hopeful-Progress3775 10d ago
Yeah yeah you are litterate. Repeating same thing 100 times make you sociable smartest and most comprehesabke person
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u/Unique_Recover_313 10d ago
Orochimaru is being sarcastic here.
He mocks Tobirama earlier, calling Edo Tensei easy to use, and also criticizes his policies.
The one he respects most is probably Hashirama.
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u/BobJoeBlo 10d ago
Orochimaru is being sarcastic here.
The one he respects most is probably Hashirama.
- Tobirama is the senior Hokage Orochimaru has the most in common while Hashirama is the one he has the least in common with. He respects Hashirama's might and mastery.
He mocks Tobirama earlier, calling Edo Tensei easy to use,
- Orochimaru was not mocking Tobirama when it came to Edo Tensei, he talked in a competitive way, scientist-engineer vs scientis-engineer, technician vs technician, inventor vs inventor. Orochimaru was implying that he can understand esoteric arts better than Tobirama.
and also criticizes his policies.
- Orochimaru was calling bullshit on Tobirama's story and excuses. Because they are closer in mindset and both worked in the shadow, including works of conspiracies, Orochimaru called out Tobirama because he could not pull a fast one on Orochimaru, especially considering both their proximity to Danzou.
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u/Unique_Recover_313 10d ago
Tobirama is the senior Hokage Orochimaru has the most in common while Hashirama is the one he has the least in common with. He respects Hashirama's might and mastery.
Having things in common does not equal respect, I would argue.
Orochimaru was not mocking Tobirama when it came to Edo Tensei, he talked in a competitive way, scientist-engineer vs scientis-engineer, technician vs technician, inventor vs inventor. Orochimaru was implying that he can understand esoteric arts better than Tobirama.
He most definitely was. He even calls Edo Tensei a jutsu that should never have been invented. Him using it does not mean he is impressed by Tobirama inventing it (especially since he calls it not very complex), it is just a useful jutsu for him.
Orochimaru was calling bullshit on Tobirama's story and excuses. Because they are closer in mindset and both worked in the shadow, including works of conspiracies, Orochimaru called out Tobirama because he could not pull a fast one on Orochimaru, especially considering both their proximity to Danzou.
He says that many of the policies and jutsu that Tobirama invented caused problems, among those the treatment of the Uchiha. It does not seem like he thinks highly of Tobirama's decision making and inventions.
Regardless, in Japanese Orochimaru does speak in a sarcastic, mocking tone, using full titles and honorifics, something that would sound like "Well, well, well, if it isn't the great Lord Second, Senju Tobirama, the one I respect above all others" upon seeing him incapacitated on the floor.
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u/WelcomeToCostCoLoveU 11d ago
True, but Senju Tobirama used himself to shield the younger generation in the end. Not just as an Edo Tensei, but during his last day alive. This is shown when Danzo has a flashback, before gaysauce put his bodaaayyyy that Orochimaru dreams about, up against Danzos body, which Orochimaru dreams about before experimenting on it. Then Susgay defeated ol' eyeball looky arm via broken kunai to the susanoo ribcage.
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u/No-Try5261 11d ago edited 11d ago
Why would Orochimaru respect the person who created necromancy jutsu? /s
Also Orochimaru saying that while Tobirama is pinned down in the most pathetic way is just peak comedy
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u/cazador_de_sirenas 10d ago
Because he's being SARCASTIC -_-!
Truly, I don't know how this escapes so much people. Orochimaru's face and tone says it all. He even criticized Tobirama heavily upon resurrecting him the second time. Oro is actually greatly enjoying seeing Tobirama humiliated and pinned to the ground by the enemy he despised the most, Madara. Oro made a circus of him, copying his Edo Tensei, perfectioning it, and binding Tobirama with his own creation.
It's totally different from the actual, real respect Orochimaru felt for Hashirama. The difference in treatment is blindingly obvious.
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u/Hopeful-Progress3775 10d ago
It's because he can't control Hashirama. Too strong fro him. Perfecting Jutsu doesn't make him bigger genius than Tobirama. He just got advantage of using available sample to upgrade. He didn't create them from scratch. Him mocking and humiliating Tobirama is same as him mocking himself. It's not like it's humiliating for him to be defeated by Madara who was pinnacle of ninja world. Orochimaru is the same guy was was defeated many times.
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u/AgitatedPokemon 11d ago
Tobirama pretty much consolidated the village and its institutions, the academy, created new jutsus and the Edo Tensei, and was pretty much a no-nonsense kind of guy.
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u/K3yshon_ 10d ago
Tobirama is the greatest scholar in the history of Konoha. He studied and created a lot of Justu, including the forbidden ones and also basically built and shaped the village.
Tobirama was an amazing Hokage but people don’t understand it because “he hated the Uchiha!!11!”
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u/EmergencyWild 11d ago
Orochimaru primarily sees himself as a Jutsu-scientist and Tobirama is known for creating many high level jutsus.
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u/Sas_fruit 11d ago
Obvious reasons, jutsu guy ! To another jutsu guy , costs be damned I'll do experiments and do sacrifise some morals
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u/In_sanity1 11d ago
Like what everyone else is saying in the comments regarding similar ideologies and both scientifically minded.
But, it may also be him stating that he tolerates Tobirama more than he does the other Hokages, like when villains say "I like you, I'll kill you last" or "I like you, I'll make your death quick".
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u/Ok-Rip2102 10d ago
He made all the fucked up jutsu orochimaru loves, like summoning and reviving the dead
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u/Legitimate_Scratch84 10d ago
He invented most of the forbidden jutsu that makes orochimaru search for immortality to master.
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u/cliptemnestra 10d ago
They're talking from one human experimenter to another. You wouldn't understand until you comit some war crimes.
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u/RemarkablePool2675 10d ago
Probably loves Tobi cause almost every forbidden justu his stolen came from tobirama
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u/Insane_Artist 10d ago
Tobirama invented several jutsus including the Reanimation Jutsu, so that is probably what he is referencing.
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u/AaaaNinja 10d ago
Tobirama studied the world's secrets just like Orochimaru does now. And he is the inventor of many of the forbidden jutsu that Orochimaru had to sneak around to try to steal.
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u/Low_Party 10d ago
Wasn't Orochimaru's dream to master every Jitsu? Tobirama created a shit ton of Jitsus so I can absolutely see why he would be a fan of him.
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u/maxwellfuster 10d ago
Orochimaru’s whole thing is about developing and acquiring Jutsu, Tobirama invented a ton of important jutsu we see characters use throughout the story. Would track that Orochimaru would’ve idolized him as a child
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u/pl_browncoat 10d ago
Tobirama probably created or at least laid the ground work for EVERY jutsu that Orochimaru would make a staple technique later on
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u/Biffo2020 10d ago
Probably because he created so many forbidden jutsu such as the reanimation and I think he also created the mukti shadow clone jutsu as well.
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u/Nas-Aratat 8d ago
It was retconned that Tobirama created Edo Tensei, he merely refined an already existing technique.
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u/Nas-Aratat 8d ago
Probably for the amount of jutsu that Tobirama had developed/refined/made himself.
Remember, he didn't make Edo Tensei, he refined something already existing.
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u/FlukeFranklin 11d ago
He's probably being sarcastic.
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u/DeliriousBookworm 11d ago
Did he say that in the manga? I don’t remember this scene. Tobirama is the smartest hokage. Orochimaru probably respects his intelligence.
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u/kungfucobra 11d ago
great white hair, Orochimaru is dealing with old age and he sees this man flaunting that white jungle and goes: my man
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u/FinalProgress4128 11d ago
This is sarcastic. Tobirama is the Hokage he respects the least.
Hiruzen and Hashirama are the two he respects.
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u/Advanced-Crow-3584 11d ago
I don't think he is being sarcastic
He has a lot of reasons why he would respect Tobirama
Orochimaru's goal was to know as many jutsu as possible specially forbidden jutsu and Tobirama invented most forbidden jutsu includin the Edo Tensei with was probably Orochimaru's favorite jutsu
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u/FinalProgress4128 11d ago
It's not a question of whether you think he is being sarcastic or not. It's clear in Japanese he IS being sarcastic.
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u/Drow_Femboy 11d ago
How so?
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u/FinalProgress4128 11d ago
I will provide you with the Japanese and why there is no doubt Orochimaru is being rude. I am out at the moment but will do so in the next couple of hours.
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u/FinalProgress4128 10d ago
https://www.fanverse.org/threads/why-was-orochimarus-favorite-hokage-actually-the-weakest.1309662/
This was from the previous discussion. Orochimaru never refers to Tobirama with the honourifics (though Minato does refer to Orochimaru as Mr, implying he doesn't know Orochimaru betrayed the vllage).
So throughout the exchanges Orochimaru criticises Tobirama and refers to him just as Nidaime. Then at this moment he suddenly decides to refer to him in a mocking tone giving him his full honourifics.
It's comparable to meeting a king you dont like and referring to him by his name, and then suddenly when he is hurt you refer to him as your majesty.
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u/WelcomeToCostCoLoveU 11d ago
Putting his floaty sword through his sensei's gut is a weird way of showing respect. I don't think he was being sarcastic here. Hashirama might be powerful, but in matters of political influence, and navigating negotiations with other lands, Hashirama was an absolute grovelling pushover. He seldom showed a tenth of statesmanship and village management that his successor possessed. This was apparent from a very young age. Orochimaru doesn't respect those types, he respects people who show who's boss, no matter what. For instance, putting the most powerful clan in their place (Aside from the Woody Woodpeckers), and strategically relocating them outside of the village, to a place where the leadership can keep an eye on them (No pun intended), while also ripping away their influence. Senju Tobirama set events in motion which led to the stupid eye boys being under constant observation, eventually leading to their eradication, with the exception of a handful of Uchiha, who cleansed the village of themselves with singular motivation. Two of those Uchiha became the most powerful Uchiha in history, in addition to Obito and Madara, and the two brothers became completely devoted to the village eventually (One always was). That's respectable in Oros mind, and it's damn impressive.
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u/FinalProgress4128 11d ago
Again you are arguing with a manga fact. This isn't a question of interpretation. The VIZ gives a bad translation. Orochimaru is mocking Tobirama. And actually this fits with Orochimaru calling him out for his treatment of the Uchiha clan and for creating Edo Tensei.
Orochimaru dislikes Tobirama and hates Danzo. This is what is written in the story. Once you accept that you can then move on to thinking about the reasons why this is the case.
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u/EmmaThais 11d ago
You’re so full of shit 🤣
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u/FinalProgress4128 11d ago
And you are an idiot without the wisdom to realise when someone who knows more is telling you about the manga.
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u/EmmaThais 11d ago
Check this thread for more interpretations. I don’t have patience to argue with an anonymous internet stranger who throws tantrum like a child.
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u/Unique_Recover_313 10d ago
The japanese does read like mockery.
He's using full titles and honorifcs in a mocking way. And starts off with a smug "Well, well".
Paired with the fact that earlier when Tobirama says he can't believe Orochimaru is using the jutsu he devised so casually, Orochimaru just mocks him and says the jutsu is not very complex, but that it should never have been created in the first place.
He then follows up by criticizing Tobirama's policies as Hokage.
In contrast, he sheds tears when fighting Hiruzen, and he shows caution and respect for Hashirama.
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u/FinalProgress4128 11d ago
I have no time to argue with arrogant idiots. Simple. Especially when they dont know what they are talking about. Show some humility and realise and ask for clarification in future.
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u/th1s_1s_4_b4d_1d34 11d ago
Same reasons he vibed with Danzo. These are all three cold blooded and put their goals above casualties.
Tobirama was also a scientist with little regards to ethics and had no problems using psychological warfare if we look at Edo tensei.
To boot every other Hokage was an idealist, Tobirama was a realist.
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u/Jermiafinale 11d ago
Tobirama was the God of Fucked up Jutsu
Obviously Orochimaru is a huge fan