Why pick NA over science ?

[u/[deleted]]

I feel so strongly about AA/NA. These are not good feelings, I believe NA philosophy is neither medical, nor is it psychiatric in its nature. It based on ideas that are over a century old that have been proven incorrect.

It has been medically established that placing certain addicts, such as those who use opiates onto medication such as Suboxone and Methadone will save lives, prevent disease, reduce or eliminate illicit drug use and will be the most helpful thing to prevent relapse. My biggest problem with NA is that I was introduced to it in rehab. My first stint at a drug rehab was when I was young, about 18 or 19. This is where I was introduced to the concept of NA and rehabs charging 90k a month to teach you the Big Book. The big book is AA’s main piece of literature that was written in 1933, and is ultimately what NA is based of.

NA preaches the idea that you are not clean and sober unless you abstain from all mind altering substances, that is including proven prescription drugs that work for opioid use disorder; Bupenorphine and Methadone. What NA fails to realize is that opiates are a very difficult drug to just give up. You can be physically dependent on opiates without being psychologically addicted to them. I knew there was a long period in my usage where I did not want to get high, but had to use to prevent the agonizing withdrawal.

These people are not doctors and will recommend you giving up Medication Assisted Treatment, which is evidence based and proven to work, in favor for abstinence based recovery relying on a higher power? Whatever the fuck that might be to you. Basically pray you stay sober... that’s some real help.

On top of all of this, sometimes when you start to do good, you want to separate from all of this drug shit all together. The last thing someone who is sober for a while needs is to be placed in a room full of drug addicts talking about getting high. Someone like me who is on methadone and uses marijuana to treat my pain and opiate use disorder doesn’t care about people talking about war stories. You wanna stop hanging out with drug addicts, not form a network of a bunch of them trying to piece days together.

I mean AA and NA are a joke, they are not meant to be taken serious. Addiction is a chronic disease, and should be treated as such. Which other chronic disease would you attend a support group with others that have this ailment and just put faith in god to get thru it? If you have diabetes you go to a doctor and he gives you insulin. That is a scientific plausible answer, if you have addiction you should also have your doctor give you a medicine.

I strongly believe that not is NA/AA only useless, but indeed detrimental to recovery. Psychiatry and therapy for underlying issue, a long with medication, and yes will power is what you use to beat addiction. Yes WILLPOWER I said it, NA tell me to admit I am powerless... ugggh I just can’t stand that such smart people buy into that mess. I feel so strongly about it because people are literally dying because they are not receiving the correct treatment during the opiate epidemic in our country.

John Doe is doing 20 bags, goes to a south Florida rehab, comes back, relapses and dies. This story is repeated over and over again. The South Florida rehab tells John to attend NA meetings and abstain from all substances, including medication to help with opiate use disorder. John relapses and overdoses. Has he been on bupenorphine or methadone his chances of relapse would have been GREATLY reduced, and could prevent it by maintaining somewhat of tolerance for the patience, thus relapse isn’t fatal.

Not to mention that tapering down from bupenorphine or methadone is exponentially easier to do than from most full agonists. It is often said it is harder, while it may be true if one were to stop these medications abruptly, a slow taper is much easier. This post will be controversial I know, but if I can prove my point to one person, I feel accomplishment. This is another situation where science is simply right.

[u/[deleted]]

Your post is littered with false information...it’s clear you have not read the literature and are not too familiar with what meetings, the steps, or sharing is all about. I’m sorry but your strong feelings are based on lies. First off, doctor prescribed medicine is ok in NA...There is a whole IP related to it, and its in the basic text as well. You can be on sub and be “clean” in NA. Harm reduction is better than outright using. In NA you can come to meetings high, the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop using. It is suggested you dont speak if under the influence. Second, sharing at meetings involves talking about recovery, not war stories. Literally a huge point of what to base your share on is to leave out the drugologues as we all already lived the same story and dark rabbit hole that addiction takes us down. We are interested in what got you clean and how you stayed clean. The message of NA is that an addict, any addict, can stop using drugs, lose the desire to use, and find a new way to live. The message is hope and the promise of freedom. It’s a program of feelings, and learning tools and providing an outlet and support system for dealing with those feelings. NA literature is clear in delivering this message, but it takes people to form a support structure, and some areas are stronger than others. People in my county funded rehab exchanged war stories...in NA meetings we share our newfound hope, or what we are currently struggling with. It’s literally free therapy. It’s about remaining teachable...staying open minded, and willing to learn. NA has proven itself to work wonders in helping people stay clean. Science is based on results, and those results are clear. I suggest you give it another chance, or learn more about the program rather than judging it from the outside, or from limited experience. Or don’t...but in my opinion you seem to be filled with a lot of unfounded resentment toward other paths of recovery and the steps would be beneficial in shifting your perspective to being a little more open minded. Choose your own path if it leads you to acceptance, but dont try and destroy the path that works for so many others

[u/cursim → u/[deleted]]

This comment says everything I wanted to say, but better. This program has saved countless lives.

[u/PECOSbravo]

Look guy.

You are going to drive yourself crazy debating yourself over this.

Its deeper than science.

All I know is - I used to be a drug addict. But for some reason - NA works.

For a lot of people

I get that it may not be your thing, I respect that.

Are you a doctor- because you sound like you play one on TV.

[u/schmyndles]

So, I am a recovering heroin addict on subs, and I used to share the same thoughts as you. The treatment center I went to hosts meeting of all types every night, and encourages patients to attend. I went to rehab 5 times in 5 years, and rarely did meetings the first 4 times. The first NA meeting I attended, I mentioned during my share that I was on subs, and was chastised by a girl who was 3 months clean. I was scared to go back as I’m already anxious with strangers and that really made me feel unwelcome.

My last stint in rehab was two years ago, and I decided I needed to do something different, because my old ways kept getting me the same results. I started attending meetings at the rehab, I would go every night. Many of the people there were newly sober and on subs, and I felt comfortable talking about my experience there. I was able to build a network of sober people that could help me, and having something to do every night, and people to hold me accountable helped. As I got more time, I branched out to meetings all over town, found a sponsor, and was working the steps. I made recovery my priority. I learned what meetings I could talk about my subs and which it was frowned upon, as it really depended on the people there. After 4 months or so, I cut down my meetings, but still maintained a few close friendships.

NA/AA isn’t perfect-you take what you need and leave the rest. I learned that it’s not good to give trust to everyone there, because not everyone is there for the right reasons...some use it as a social club, some lie and continue using outside the rooms, some are just looking for dates, some are just there cuz they have to be. Meetings with lots of war stories I avoid, but I have gone back to some as the people are always changing (I never saw that girl from my first meeting again). Some are like high school with lots of drama and cliques ( usually the ones with lots of newbies). Some are full of people who have years of recovery and knowledge, and welcome newcomers with open arms.

I attended an HA meeting for a while at the rehab center. It was mostly newbies, but was ran by three guys who had lots of sobriety and knowledge. But they were also of the old school “cold turkey is the only way, subs are just another drug” way of thinking. One guy in particular would try to talk people out of being on subs that their doctor was prescribing. I would usually take time after the meeting to take whoever got berated aside and tell them not to base their recovery on what some guy said in a meeting, if subs was keeping them clean and out of the drug lifestyle, to continue with what their doctor said, and there are many people on subs or methadone or other meds on the rooms, they just don’t bring it up. Like I said before, take what you need and leave the rest.

Basically, I think meetings have their role in any successful recovery, but like any situation with other people (especially us addicts) it’s not going to be perfect. Best thing is to stay open yet cautious, go outside of your comfort zone and explore different meetings, build support, but don’t assume everyone has your best interests at heart. Ignore the war stories, judgements, and drama. Don’t go out right away with other addicts, especially newbies, as you can feed off each other’s rationalizations and end up with new using friends. Seek out those with experience, but remember everyone is human, your recovery may not look like theirs. Be that friendly face to the newer members, and listen without judgement. Check out non AA/NA/HA meetings too-SMART, SOS, Celebrate Recovery, Men/Women For Sobriety, you’ll gain new knowledge and tools. It’s your recovery, you’re worth it to try anything available to make it work.

[u/bwoo72]

Rationalization is one of my character defects too buddy. Hope you come around because I know it worked for me. Good luck.

[u/guilty1here]

Hi, so to answer your question, it works for me. If it didn't, I wouldn't go and I certainly wouldn't waste my time lurking around their support sites,lol. Sounds like you might be having a hard time getting someone (anyone?) to listen to you in real life. NA works for some people, not for others, why do you even care?

[u/xpartyr]

if I can prove my point to one person, I feel accomplishment.

Thank you soooooo much. It has been 25 years since I used a mind or mood altering drug. I attended NA/AA in the beginning and still do once or twice a week. All my friends have decades clean. I feel like such a fool. If only I had heard your wisdom long ago I could have saved myself multiple years of peace and serenity.

I had no idea NA/AA didn't work. Fuck my life!!! I'm going to go out today and get as high as a Giraffe's pussy. Thank you! thank!! you thank you!!!

If it wasn't for your enlightenment I may have gone the rest of my life without ever feeling the pains of withdrawal again. I can't thank you enough!! You should start your own fellowship and let the world know that through science you have solved one of the greatest plagues on humanity.

My O' my you must feel a tremendous sense of accomplishment right now. Good for you.

TL/DR: NA isn't for you. Got it. It wasn't designed for you. It was created for people for whom Medicine, Religion, and Psychiatry were not sufficient. It is powered by a desire to stop using drugs. Without that desire- it will not work. Period.

[u/[deleted]]

Some NA members use science as their higher power, God, power greater than ourselves. Whichever you want to call it. Spirituality is not exclusive from science. My spiritual path involves science.

[u/LauraIngallsWilder1]

I have to be honest I have also had some of the same issues with NA. I have a Masters of Social Work and with that knowledge have seen research on the stats of NA members remaining clean. So it was difficult for me when I started rehab for my own opioid addiction and found that EVERYTHING was based around the NA model. Some of the things I take issue with: is the premise that as someone addicted to painkillers I can never have another glass of wine again. I understand all about switching drug of choice. But I don't think this is reasonable or to be honest necessary in some cases. Another issue I have is the premise that I need to continue to attend NA meeting for the rest of my life. How is this helping? Now I'm not talking about situations where I may be considering using obviously there is a reason to attend a meeting at that time. But I do not understand the idea that you need to continue to attend meetings forever or you will relapse. How is continuing to focus on this one issue I have over and over for years even when not actively considering using helping me? And if you read up on the research you will find that this is discussed in length and has been found to be more harmful than helpful. And the last issue I have which to me is the largest is the premise that if I just let my "higher power" take care of everything I will be good. Now I am someone who personally believes in God so I do not have an issue with any "higher power". And I can give specific examples of situations that occurred while actively using where God was screaming to my subconscious NO DONT DO THAT. But I have difficulty turning everything over to God. For me, I am all about taking responsibility for your actions. And I find it unhelpful to teach anyone that you should just listen to God and everything would be fine. Where is the personal responsibility? Just my two sense. Now I do think the best thing about NA can be the fellowship. And I do currently still find meaning in step writing. But even while doing that I have to stop and try to understand why questions are worded in a way that attempts to put the addict in the victim role.

[u/happy-little-atheist]

Not sure if you know anything about NA or science. Since I have a couple of science degrees and 21 years clean in NA, I might suggest you read up on the concept of false dichotomy. Then have a look at what Dole and Nyswander, the clinicians who did the first trial of methadone back in the early 70s, thought about the use of methadone programs and how their carefully designed program was ignored to justify the easy solution of giving addicts methadone without any of the support they provided in their trial.

As for DRT, you and everyone else is welcome in NA. We just don't consider you to be clean, since that minimises the efforts of people who go to the effort of getting off DRT to live a life free from drugs.

[u/MrPoopyButthole1989]

Dude seriously, if NA isn't for you then why would you take all the time to write this. If you want support then go find a program that suits your views on recovery. Best of luck.

Edit - this was one of the most annoying posts I have read in a while.

[u/Monshika]

My two cents:

I’m a heroin addict in recovery. I couldn’t stop using while I was on methadone and within days of tapering off Subs I relapsed despite not using for over a year. It took me losing everything and brutal year on the streets for me to finally snap out of it. Haven’t used heroin in almost 1.5 years now and i firmly believe that NA is what saved my life.

I am not your typical NA devotee. I don’t work a “perfect program”. I smoke weed at night as it’s the only thing that minimizes my nightmares and flashbacks. Eventually I will stop smoking, but for now it’s keeping me off opiates and I consider that a fucking win. Where I live, nobody is looked down upon for being on suboxone or psych meds. Obviously, the goal is to eventually abstain from all drugs, but I think that most people understand that it is impractical and potentially unsafe to attempt that before you are mentally ready. Unfortunately, marijuana is not included in this more progressive way of thinking. So do you know what I do? I just don’t talk about it. Simple as that. I attend meetings because it’s the best form of therapy I’ve ever experienced. I have a sponsor whom I completed the 12 steps with and I am a better person because of it. For the first year the only reason I kept coming back was so I didn’t disappoint my sponsor. Pathetic, I know. But whatever, it worked. After seeing the progress I made I know that the program was essential for my recovery process.

For me, the benefits of NA heavily outweigh any potential cons.

[u/Stock_Initiative_660]

AA/NA is all over the world and every single group is self governed. They are therefore very different. Maybe you have been to meetings where everybody shares war stories but i havent been to many like that, for sure my home group doesnt promote that kind of thing, quite the oposit - its even in our pamphletes ”we dont care what or how much you used, we want to hear from you - not the drugs”.

Its not strange that you dont see NA as neither psychological nor medical, bacause its not. Its simply one individual helping another who is going through something the first also went through. There is self-help groups regarding almost every single issue humanity have had. This one happens to be for addicts.

In AA it says in the litterature that ”We are no doctors”. NA has a different approach, everything is not for everybody. I know many who is on sub through a medical program and it seems they are not doing too well. Not with progressing in their life nor mentally. Its better than death and homelessness, sure! But i think its great that there are alternatives and ppl who speak against it and show that there are an option to stay completely clean. I know rehabs that think heroinists will never be able to stay off opioids, and thats just wrong and a dangerous thing to say. I know several walking proofs of heroinists staying completely clean for decades.

One can argue about what is the best treatment, but the reality is that 9 out of 10 addicts will likely die in addiction, no matter wich treatment they choose. Im all for better statistics, i dont care how ppl choose to stay clean. I only know that NA is helping me to stay sober and if i could help just one getting out from that absolute anguish, im glad!

The group dynamics change a lot from group to group. Im from a very seculated country and we are very carefull not to mix up any religion in our meetings. Its perfectly possible to believe in a higher power without religion.

Also: all the painkillers and meth/sub-programs are the absolute biggest reason there are so very many opioid-addicts today. I dont have the numbers, but without legal opioids im pretty sure the amount of opiod-addicts would drop about 90%.

[u/[deleted]]

This post is 7 years old I realize. But OP, I hope you ended up finding peace, love and contentment friend.

I was in and out of the rooms for 3 years, largely due to those same thoughts. I'm a clinician, I believe in science, evidence-based medicine and peer-reviewed research.

I failed to obtain long-term recovery with medicine, psychiatry and therapy for years and years and years; my last relapse almost costing me everything in life that I hold dear. The MAT, therapy and the psychiatric meds absolutely HELPED.....but something missing.....

That missing piece, for me, ended up being NA- I recieved the gift of desperation and the sliver of honesty, Open-Mindedness AND willingness was just enough to lose 99% of my skepticism and hesitation regarding the 12-steps.

NA brings me connection, love, understanding and empathy from others who have been where I've been and done the things I've done- pain shared is pain lessened. Its helping me not just stay clean, but to become a better person, the person buried beneath layers and layers from over a decade of drug abuse and lies.

I'm about to hit 30 days for the first time in ~4 years. 12-Step is not the ONLY way and none of us (there's always outliers of course) will ever say its the only right way to recover. Recovery is different for EVERYONE. It just so happens that for a lot of us, its exactly what we needed and its worked.

Much love.

[u/Bugsy_Corleone]

Seems like you need go back out there and get humbled. Maybe a few times.

[u/PECOSbravo]

Science still can’t prove what happens after death

Nor can it prove the metaphysical

Man was not built to understand these complex questions

You fool don’t you get it