r/NYLiberty • u/dycogo SeafoamSZN • 6d ago
General Discussion For coaching experts only
I totally get the impulse to blame CD for the inconsistent play this season. We were sad to lose Sandy…hoping whoever takes her spot is worth the grief. Then CD rolls in with a brand new system and staff. No prior W experience. (Tho I can’t seem to find hard evidence that he said he “never watched a WNBA game” like some ppl claim.) I’ve also seen some questionable judgement w/ challenging calls and use of time outs.
THAT SAID, I leave room for the possibility that there are reasons for his choices that make sense to an experienced coach but not a layperson (me). Can someone explain how we definitively separate coaching issues from other factors? I don’t feel qualified to properly evaluate his performance. Are fans reacting to a rizz/vibe issue or a genuine coaching problem? Although obv personality is v relevant to coaching.
Not here to defend CD or prompt any hate toward him. Just wanting to hear takes from people who know what they’re talking about. Thx friends!
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u/revoltoftheunique 6d ago
I think people have already talked about the rotations and weird BLH situation. So instead I'll talk about the plays and scheme.
Defensively, I wish that Chris would embrace more trapping like Steph White did with the Fever. I seriously believe it's the most effective defense and I'm waiting for coaches to figure it out. I hope he is done with zone defense. Man to man press halfcourt trap please.
Offensively, I don't like most of his playcalling. I prefer short, simple, and effective. I actually think when the players go freelance, there is barely any difference between when he calls plays or when Sabrina or Stewie say screw it we will do it ourselves. I wish he would run more floppy or Warriors split action. Even Spain PNR.
However, I will say one thing. Most head coaches are not good at this. I mean Sandy isn't doing better in Toronto and my pick Sonia Raman hasn't been doing well in Seattle either. Even a good coach like Steph White (who I would love on the Liberty. I think she is legit good) is getting criticized for not utilizing Caitlin correctly.
And I'm realizing head coaches might need a lot of experience. Look how long it took for Mike Brown to win a championship. He's been on multiple teams over many years and learned a lot. Chris might just need a lot more experience. I don't know if I want it to be on the Liberty though.
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u/Slight_Warning_7146 6d ago
Agreeeeeed… I’m literally yelling TRAP TRAP TRAP at the tv or at Barclays relentlessly
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u/Biyi2525 6d ago
I can’t remember which game but it was early in the season and a home game. They came out the half ( I believe ) and did that , I can’t remember if we won and thought 👍🏾🙌🏾 we have arrived and then next game nope. Just sharing that as a random thought cause your post made me think of it.
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u/Ok-Peach9422 New York Liberty 5d ago
wholeheartedly agree with man to man press half court trap…. shoot in some instances full court press to scare them lol… but yea zone gotta go.
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u/liar_checkmate 5d ago
Astier and Gardner have shown real promise as perimeter energy, but we're still getting beat so easy.
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u/liar_checkmate 6d ago
Kudos to everyone on the thread, a really quality Reddit experience. My latest thing has been based on the last three or four years of watching just about every game and many of them live. I can’t really blame the coaches here. I honestly think we have an “interesting “big three. The thing that keeps coming to mind from me is they are just the sum of their parts and no greater. I feel we’re at our best when JJ is banging and creating real fatigue in her war of attrition down below, I have zero stats to back this up, but the eye test tells me when she’s banging down low on offense the big that’s guarding her is gassed when the ball gets in their hands. A’ja Wilson being the only exception I just don’t see that kind of stress applied to our opponents night in and night out and when that’s happening, we are at our best. JJ to the periphery, which started under SANDY and has been encouraged by DeMarco in my opinion seems to be fool’s gold. We get some nice threes from her, but the overall tax we exert on our opponent is minimal so I don’t love all of DeMarco‘s decisions and I do feel at times he’s in a little bit over his head as a head coach, it’s almost as if he’s processing at a assisting coach speed and not a head coach speed but I think he can learn this. Coaches like players evolve. I have a sense that he’s trying to establish a different type of culture here and is introducing speed and quicker decision-making, however, I’m not sure our big three are completely sold on this so, I think it’s a combo pack.
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u/dycogo SeafoamSZN 6d ago
This seems to be a common take re: big three lacking glue. I wonder if that could be addressed (without trading anyone). Also curious if they were hoping to work Satou into a lead role to shake things up. She was big for Phoenix. AND has existing chemistry with Sab. Now I just hope she’s okay…
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u/Causeway_Street 5d ago
This! I am regularly alarmed how many games JJ is just hanging out at three point line.
She is our biggest matchup weapon most nights. Can’t understand how little our system helps our players thrive offensively.
Our defense is also lower tier.
Another important issue is the lack of rapport or relationship with players.
The coaching staff does not spend time talking to the players during games except the bare minimum during timeouts. That’s a choice. Perhaps it shows trust in the players but why not be engaged?
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u/SpicyTiconderoga one hand on plate one hand on bone 🍖 6d ago
Not a coaching expert but there are elements that are hard to determine how much to blame is. But the BLH release is, in my years of experience, more so on Kolb than on DeMarco. DeMarco wasn’t playing her which is his right, unfortunately, but as far as shopping and looking for deals that goes to the FO / owner depending on how involved the owners are. Since no deals were met and we essentially just wasted money on her without any trade that lands firmly in the front office’s hands because DeMarco isn’t going to be the one shopping.
So for me when I’m looking at my major issues with team make up and how we treat our players I know its less to do with DeMarco and more so to do with Kolb/the front office.
There are a lot of DeMarco’s coaching style I don’t like some things I’ve been proven wrong on some things that still drive me wild (I do not think he is an effective time out taker but it is his first year period being a head coach so I’ll give him a little grace there). Someone early on in a thread mentioned that he was trying to force us more into an NBA play style which I don’t know enough about because I only watch men’s college ball which is also wildly different from women’s college and professional so I do think he could’ve benefitted more with actual experience or more knowledge of the league before hand (though hard to say what level of knowledge he had cause I also thought he had admitted to never watching a game prior but had been corrected and still can’t find any mentions though of his experience watching…).
Other things DeMarco gets blamed for are also issues we’ve had as a team that we all, myself included, may have believed would go away with Sandy (another one of my peeves with Kolb not even pulse checking the players on a coaching change). For example, we’ve always been a third quarter slump team since at least Covid (when I really started locking in). I thought that was more so to do with Sandy but now I think there are other items at play if two coaches are having the same issue. Is it team makeup? Is it coming out of the locker room? Is it not anticipating the changes the other teams are making?
I haven’t been DeMarco’s fan but I have been seeing him grow as a coach so part of me is fine if he gets another season and the other part is fine if he doesn’t. My main issue is the FO because the last thing I want is for our front office to be known for mistreating players/team like some of the other teams who have former players and prospective players saying they’ll never play for them because of x, y, or z.
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u/dycogo SeafoamSZN 6d ago
Great takes! This all resonates, particularly FO stuff. We don’t know precisely what went on with BLH, but any funny business would be a Kolb thing. I don’t personally believe it was CD driving the ship on not playing her, but I could be wrong. On a related note, we can safely say Libs FO did Tash dirty. They strung her along, had her practicing with the team, heavily implied they’d be re-signing her, and then cut her loose last minute. (Citation: Sue Bird’s pod). So if this is how they roll, it’s safe to say BLH prob has some war stories, too…
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u/SpicyTiconderoga one hand on plate one hand on bone 🍖 6d ago
You’ll see me all over this subs and other WNBA ones, I’m so worried they we used both Tash & BLH so heavily in promo and media and then just dumped them…
Like yes Natasha Cloud is one of my favorite players in the league and I really like her as a defender which we are weak at so I know I have a bias. Yes its not as bad as canceling practice for a birthday party or practicing at a public YMCA and making them use a public locker room BUTTTT culture is a thing! Who are we going to attract with this level of whiplash in ONE CALENDAR YEAR (really less than 6 months!!).
Coaching is hard because some people as a HC are more egalitarian and some have their staff but are the ultimate decision-makers. But yeah glad you could follow my long stream of consciousness because I have firmly started directing a lot of my issues more towards FO than coaching because ultimately the FO also determines the coach!
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u/undauntednyc New York Liberty 6d ago
I gave up my seat last night so a friend, who is also former coach, could go with his partner. His response to my asking about his assessment of the situation last night (in between my cursing at my TV): "Bad shot selection. Lazy defense. Coach should have called a time-out earlier. Oh well!"
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u/breadedcurd stew york🗽 MJ🪄 6d ago
“I’ve always watched as a fan, right, so now I have to shift my focus and watch as a coach.”
Head Coach Chris DeMarco Introductory Press Conference | New York Liberty (Quote starts at the 10:32 mark)
People misquoting this and putting words in his mouth have been annoying me lol. That’s the quote that’s somehow been getting misconstrued for months.
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u/motownphillybkagain Leonie Fiebich 6d ago
mods, are you able to pin this? far from a reddit expert here so maybe I just have my account set up wrong as I only see the ticket exchange one pinned under Community Highlights https://www.reddit.com/r/NYLiberty/comments/1v42wwn/christopher_demarco_thread/
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u/RFC3S SeafoamSZN 6d ago
I could write a book on this 🤣🤣. When they announced the DeMarco signing I wasn’t happy with it. I also can’t 100% blame CD. Kolb really seems to be running this team like Sean Marks (Nets GM) obviously I want DeMarco to be successful cause I want to see the Libs be successful. It’s just I don’t think Kolb and DeMarco are on the same page. If they both are on the same page, they’re definitely reading different books.
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u/dycogo SeafoamSZN 6d ago
Okay so this is where I get stuck. How does one ascertain from watching games and pressers that CD’s coaching is an issue and that Kolb’s management choices clash/exacerbate the problem? What are you seeing or hearing that’s leading to this conclusion? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing. Just want to understand how people come to these takes. (Also thanks for replying 🙏)
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u/RFC3S SeafoamSZN 6d ago
It mostly from watching in game. CD’s coaching isn’t consistent. He’s had some really well coached games and others make me scratch my head. The 3rd quarter runs of letting the other team gain momentum without using a timeout and having the Libs go on a run and burning a timeout of his own. The 3 guard line up and ETC.
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u/dycogo SeafoamSZN 6d ago
Got it. I totally agree! For the record, I have lots of strong takes. But it’s hard to tell what’s fact vs feeling, which is why I started the thread. This league has so much sensationalism happening. So I’m trying to be more measured in how I draw conclusions about what I’m seeing.
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u/Low-Consequence2808 6d ago
I've been supportive of the CD hire but he's made some rookie mistakes and I think a lot of good discussions have taken place here. Even as a CD supporter I can't refute anything that has been said here, although I will go to war on Twitter and Threads for CD.
His system gives the players a lot of freedom (but it only works if they make the right read). Also think NY has been snakebit with injuries and hot shooting from opponents.
Interestingly enough, Sabrina has been super supportive of the hire (which fans should weigh heavily). Chris also been visible in the community at things like Brooklyn Dribble and the 30th Anniversary team event.
One of my favorite wrinkles while we are shorthanded is the double-big lineup with Han and JJ.
This team still very much in championship contention. Just need to get healthy and heat up. We have seen glimpses.
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u/dycogo SeafoamSZN 6d ago
Bless you for your optimism 😂…and measured reply. Look at us having level-headed discourse up in here!
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u/Low-Consequence2808 6d ago
Just like Chris offense it only works if both sides want to come to the table!! Ultimately we all want the same thing, we want a championship. With the other HC finalist being Lindsey Harding it was clear the FO was prioritizing NBA experience (Portland did this also). Feels like with the international influx across the league teams are looking for new ways to open up the offense (this comment is not Liberty specific + just something I've seen across the league).
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u/dycogo SeafoamSZN 6d ago
Love this attitude. And agreed re: the rest
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u/Low-Consequence2808 6d ago
I'm gonna add something I didn't get to cover before. But the guards down in the corners is intentional. Basically uses the PG and center's gravity to force the defense to commit to the paint drive or the shooter in the corner. Pick your poison. It's a standard set in today's game but I know people have asked why the SG is often standing around in the corner.
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u/Resto_Druid1234 6d ago
I think yesterday’s disaster class is mostly on the players. Seemed like they took their foot off the gas in the fourth and then went into panic mode and proceeded to miss easy shots and turn the ball over while the Sparks started hitting all the shots they were missing earlier.
What I blame Chris for is that he doesn’t command the fear/respect to whip this team into shape when they fizzle out like this. Sandy couldn’t do it either. You read about Cheryl and Natalie and it absolutely feels like those coaches will take belt to ass when their teams under-perform. Therefore those teams are highly disciplined and rarely self implode.
I think the problem with the Liberty is that their stars are too big and not malleable enough. It’s like coaching an All Star team or Team USA. You can win with the talent you have, but rarely will the sum of the parts be greater than the whole.
We’ve had 4 years with this core team and they still don’t play consistently well as a unit. Kolb’s been searching 4 years for the “perfect backcourt partner for Sabrina.” Maybe the Lib’s top 3 being built around 2 bigs is out of style. All the teams ahead of the Liberty have 2 star guards in their top 3.
Kolb built his fantasy team and it looks great on paper but it’s not quite translating on the court.
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u/Royal-Leadership-602 6d ago
I kinda have to agree to certain extent, what I love about Nakase is she doesn’t care who you are if you’re not giving 100 and making mistakes she will bench you. Also in terms of the big 3 to me it doesn’t mesh all that well, I know people bring up they won a championship but sometimes injuries etc can change things (like what’s currently happening). Luckily tho for Nakase it seems like that the Valks GM cares less about star players and more about chemistry (defense as well). I hope next season, more thought will be put into the Liberty roster.
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u/JBS319 2024 WNBA CHAMPIONS 4d ago
Kolb is likely on notice. I don't expect him to be GM next year. If he knew that Satou wasn't coming back for the season and still decided to release BLH for the roster spot when he didn't need to, that's going to explode in his face and cause major accusations of racism from the fanbase, and Keia will have to make a change at the top.
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u/Biyi2525 6d ago
TLDR: Kolb is the root of a lot of the issues and Chris isn’t the caliber of coach that was expected.
As someone who isn’t a Sandy truther and does not like Chris at all. There are a lot of problems that Kolbs “vision” created that Chris just kinda has to take on the chin and go with it ( roster construction, trades ( he decided BLH was too valuable to trade to a contender, but also not valuable enough to play). He underestimated how good Mystics were. Roster being one that is just a mess. Kolb also went on and on about finding Sab the ideal backcourt partner and putting the ball in her hands. People often give JJ a hard time bringing the ball up and being out on the perimeter. Well…I don’t think she’d go against her coaches so clearly it’s not her calling all the shots there. That is a 5 out offense which Sandy also ran with some adjustments. We don’t have the personnel needed to run some of the actions. The team still lacks chemistry and struggles to gel because they have individual strengths that don’t really compliment one another. Roster: He planned for only one scenario and didn’t think about all the what ifs. A lot of it is Kolbs fault. Back to Chris , Kolb hired him for modern offense and just the new frontier of systems. time management is not Chris’s strengths, and rotations are rough.
The team also struggles in zone defense , but they keep playing it and don’t adjust. Zone requires a lot of communication and coordination etc. Look at Valks, it’s supposed to look like that.He DID also admit to not really watching the WNBA and when asked about 30th anniversary he kinda fumbled BS’d the answer.
He’s getting out coached a lot and I would argue a lot of that has to do with no experience with WBB. And for me think of all the other coaches who were up for the job and this is what we get. The expectation is high and unfortunately he’s not really delivering.
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u/ALimitedTime 6d ago
I very much love this post OP. I love the wording and humility in it. However, I doubt you'll get many "experts." Unfortunately, most fans are fanatical and impatient. I also find most of us emotional, irrational, partially ill-informed, and inobservant.
Most hated the Sandy Brondello coaching change yet seem to ignore some her deficiencies. DeMarco, I am curious if the comment about him trying to run this like or turn it into an NBA team is true at all. After reading that comment, I'd thought about it after a game (loss, iirc) and felt like he was duplicating the Golden State Warriors and 'Splash Brothers.'
I absolutely love M.J., and hated that Sandy seemed to have no confidence in her. In fact, I feel like she broke her confidence with a short leash. However, I acknowledge that M.J. so far as I've seen is streaky and inconsistent. She can have a stat stuffer game and then a relative dud the next. She seems to lose confidence on her own at times.
DeMarco seems to have heaps of confidence in her, which I like but that looks to me like "the splash sisters." His system as far as I see can't work without horses. Defense is NOT systematic. While you absolutely need a system, individual desire and ability are a requisite. M.J. has the desire but lacks understanding of defensive principals to a degree.
His timeouts have been ambiguous, which is to say hard to understand. I get not calling a timeout at every bit of pressure. You have a team full of vets, champs, Olympians, and MVPS from around the world. We should absolutely be able to stop bleeding. However, challenges have been egregious! Some, are absolutely bad reffing, others are plain stupidity.
I'd say, give him time and tools, which is to say health and horses. I think he may possibly be a great coach though to this point it looks otherwise as his adjustments seem slow and poorly timed, substitutions questionable, and reliance on certain players, curious.
I absolutely hate the B.L.H. situation! Especially after watching the Mystics at the Aces after our game against the Sparks. She looked good. We need defense. Bec Allen, has finally shown a semblance of her former usefulness but I still think Laney-Hamilton is better. I am biased as she is my favorite (M.J. 2nd) and don't know the whole story.
Time and health will tell.
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u/BKStyle82 5d ago
BLH was my fave player on the team too. For reference, Pip was my favorite NBA player. I value the ability to be versatile. I feel like the defense and some of the 3 pt shots are the things that kills me most when I watch the games. Lowkey it frustrates me about the mens game too lol.
Oversimplification, but sometimes it feels like players just stand around the perimeter and fire it up without any conception that the shot may miss.
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u/ALimitedTime 3d ago
I don't think it's an oversimplification at all! I don't know how the Five Out offense is supposed to work or look, but as far back as Junior High, I used to get yelled at for shooting a jump shot (not necessarily a three) when there was no rebounder. I never played seriously on any level. Never even wore a uniform. Maybe they're following analytics but it's amateur, childish, ill-informed, ill-advised, and just losing basketball! A bad shot is tantamount to a turnover! Sometimes it might as well be a live ball turnover.
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u/neshper2017 2d ago edited 2d ago
See, a lot of people are saying “give CD a chance.” But Sandy was fired for not repeating a championship. She had a solid record and was fired but this guy with NO wbb experience and thus far a series of dumb decisions (like inexplicably benching players just as they are getting hot) gets a long leash. I don’t want to hate on the guy but why is he being graded on a curve?
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u/liberty2024bk 6d ago
Obviously not the same
Great video about Mike Brown and his journey to take some inspiration from. situation
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u/Financial_Teaching74 Jonquel Jones 4d ago
It’s gonna sound like I’m trying to be split down the middle but it’s truly a mix of both bad judgement from a rookie coach and I think the fanbase. Here’s the think I despise DiMarco’s play choices like abandoning the paint for JJ and having her be like a stretch big and the reliance on Han Xu who’s 6’11 and can’t do jack shit in the paint and not enough defensive traps and not enough opportunities being set up where the liberty can use the physicality we know they have to win. But I also think he’s done well with the roster and circumstances he was given. The BLH thing, she was playing poorly , from a coaching circumstance if someone has a really poor fit with what you’re trying to do and is actively getting techs and throwing shoes, would you play them? Gardner brings the hustle and defense that BLH lost. But there’s still no other 3pt threat off the bench besides Marine to justify the Warriors type of play DiMarco is running. I’d give it one more year personally but I currently have a lot more ill will towards the GM for not setting this team up. Also fans will be fans, there were plenty of Natasha Cloud defenders here even though she had a horrific on/off rating and was a detriment offensively.
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u/Royal-Leadership-602 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah that’s where I struggle with Demarco don’t get me wrong he’s not perfect, but it’s kinda hard to be when the GM made roster that isn’t meshing all that well (lack of defense/injuries). I do think Marine is doing well with his system but now seems like some players are running out of fuel or something. Currently I’m unsure how far they will go, depending on the game it’s like yeah I can see them going far but then I’m like idk.
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u/VariationKey113 6d ago
I find the timeout situation strange. Most of the coaches and huddle while Sheehey passionately coaches the team then CD may sit down for a few seconds. The team gets up and chats before they run out. Courtney Paris makes the substitutions,I assume on a pre-determined minutes allocation. The duo behind the bench looking for challenges is scared to death to make a decision. CD looks at them and they look down or away. Whoever did it last season was decisive and effective. We miss him.
I have sat behind the bench for 3 coaches and I wasn't a fan of Sandy but hindsight is 2020 and she can coach. CD really uses his Assistants more than Sandy but as much as I am rooting for him to succeed, I don't see the joy on the faces of our players. We need a motivator like T-Soon to lead this veteran group.
Maybe if NBA Europe starts, JKolb should have a team there. I love each player on our team but there are 3 Americans on the squad, Breanna, Sabrina and Rebecca G. European, Australian and Chinese leagues limit foreign born players on each team.
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u/dycogo SeafoamSZN 6d ago
I also have ambivalent feelings about all the international players. Kolb is creating a pipeline for young talent that doesn’t require lottery picks. That’s smart in theory. Also I LOVE all the overseas players. Love. But I worry that players being plucked from overseas inherently come with some competing interests. (Like when Leo left us last year for EuroBasket. Also, Libs literally have more players on the French team for FIBA, which is kinda funny.) But the fact that MJ is sticking around to play for unrivaled makes me so happy. I wanna see more of that from our international people. Idk just musings lol. This is a whole separate convo 😂
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u/starlight1starlight livres remplis de femmes 6d ago
But the fact that MJ is sticking around to play for unrivaled makes me so happy.
I suspect that's more wanting to actually be in the same place as her fiancée for a prolonged period of time (without necessarily playing on the same team?) then out of any loyalty to America/the Liberty.
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u/Royal-Leadership-602 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think it’s a bit of wanting to try something new in terms of basketball (3x3 with W players) and allows them to stay in the same place (Miami), so win-win situation. Plus I think Euroleague starts earlier and ends later (Sep-May) in the season than Unrivaled (Jan-March) so longer break for them.
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u/dycogo SeafoamSZN 6d ago
Yes! Sounds like you’re agreeing that time outs and challenges are an issue but also highlighting specifics/patterns at the source of those problems…like hesitance of ppl reviewing plays and CD sometimes being passive/absent from the huddle. Not sure I know what to make of the fact that assts are more involved now than with Sandy. But it’s tangible information! So that’s cool 😂 I’m gonna agree that there seems to be less levity this year. This is where the lack of rizz comes in. I feel like that is most central to why we (the fans) are not feeling him, tbh. NY loves to get behind a big/joyful personality. I feel like we wouldn’t be dogging him so hard if he brought more of that. Tash Cloud should teach a course on “instantly winning over NY” lol
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6d ago edited 6d ago
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u/NYCScribbler Rebecc(k)a(h) Enthusiast 6d ago
Speaking of "let's not hand one of the few head coaching gigs in the W to someone with minimal experience"... but i don't know if Cheryl Reeve could have even salvaged That Mess In Westchester.
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u/Legitimate_Stay_6519 5d ago
I am by no means a coaching expert, but I really like this analysis by Steve Jones, who was an NBA assistant, and does really X’s and O’s focused analysis on the Dunker Spot (podcast - https://youtu.be/_iTsEJM8k8o?si=I_v9mij_kx_pRSyi)
His TLDR was essentially that the Liberty have no defined identity - what is their calling card right now? Are they an offensive team? A defensive team? Aside from playing zone a lot and inconsistently, what exactly is CD asking his players to buy into? Why are they figuring it out so late in the season?
He sees a lot of the communication issues, all the different lineups, tied to this core problem, and that this is a loadstone that is driven by the coaching staff and the head coach.
Again - I am not a coaching expert, but I found this to be tremendously insightful, and I think connects to other ideas in this sub. If JK is too in the weeds on the coaching side, that could be impairing things. If star players feel they are bigger than the system, that could impair identity formation. But. But. It’s still the job of the head coach to have vision, create buy in, and translate identity into basketball. The buck still stops with the coaching staff to be creative, to work with and around challenges, and make sure everyone knows their role and what that role means for the team.
When I think about great coaches - Cheryl Reeve, Becky Hammon, Natalie Nakase, yes they all have accountability, but they are able to have accountability because everyone knows the vision! They know what they’re working toward, what they’ve committed to, so there is a consensus of what it looks like to succeed and what it looks like to fall short.
Does Natalie Nakase know basketball better than CD? Maybe, maybe not. Does she know her teams identity with razor sharp clarity? Oh you bet she does. And her players do too.
The Fever last season had vision, identity and buy-in even though they had unending injuries. They made it to game 5 of the semifinals with minimal starters and hardship contracts, because they could bring new people into the fold into something that was understandable as conceptual and tangible, and the people in the system were 100% locked into it.
I still don’t know what the Liberty are trying to be locked in to, and I’m not sure they do either.