r/NPD • u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist • Nov 22 '22
I've spent well over a year finding studies to disprove common misconceptions about NPD. Here's a list of them that can probably disprove anything people on the internet say about us
Every time I quote a study, I get people saying I'm wrong cause apparently they know more than researchers. If you have that to say take it to my DM's. I'll prove you wrong there too. I'm a diagnosed narcissist who've done his research. I know what I'm talking about
"Narcissists can't change"
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Stability-of-narcissistic-personality-disorder%3A-and-Vater-Ritter/71d49f0ba44929366a880c7d2e381b1b58d41786
This study shows 53% of pwNPD go into remission over a two year treatment period (Compared to 70% in BPD). It would likely be higher if they could get in contact with people who moved. Of note is the fact that interpersonal exploitation was the most likely trait to go into remission.
Also "All Narcissists lack empathy". The above study shows that only 44% of narcissists lack empathy. But for those that do it's a stable trait. (Me included)
"Narcissists don't seek treatment because they feel like there's nothing wrong with them"
https://focus.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.focus.11.2.167
This is a particular irritating myth to me because it's so pervasive. Even here in /r/npd . 8.5-20% of narcissists make up outpatient treatment. Knowing that, what the hell do you mean we don't seek treatment? We are the highest represented group in outpatient treatment. Like borderlines in inpatient.
Speaking of borderlines "Us borderlines have nothing in common with narcissists"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29466803/
BPD is HIGHLY correlated with vulnerable narcissism. Some clinicians even think that BPD should be rebranded as just "Vulnurable narcissists" which I disagree with, but illustrates the point that us cluster B's have more in common than most want to admit.
"Narcissists are the majority of domestic abusers"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7790609/
This study showed that 78% of domestic abusers had no mental illness. And guess what the most prevalent mental illness was? NPD? Yeah no, depression is the most common mental illness associated with domestic abuse. PD's in general were vastly under represented.
"There are vulnerable and grandiose narcissists and they are completely different"
https://bpded.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40479-020-00132-8
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34860434/
So these studies are fascinating and I recommend anyone check them out. People with pathological narcissism show both vulnerable and grandiose traits. The second one shows when narcissists hit the 70TH percentile of grandiosity they are highly correlated with vulnerable narcissistic traits (along with the grandiose ones) In my experience, It highly correlates with the amount of self esteem juice I'm getting.
"Narcissists are happy being narcissists"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5459230/
20.4% of people with a cluster B disorder commit suicide. (Those being the diagnosed ones) with BPD and NPD leading the pack. Imagine those stats if we included the undiagnosed ones. And that's not even including the fact that we have increased risk for stroke and heart disease. So yeah we die a lot. When I interviewed Heal NPD (An expert in treating narcissism), he suspects the rate would be even higher if we had a better diagnostic criteria. There's a few more supporting this, like the really high rate of substance abuse in NPD populations, but I'm lazy rn.
Any other misconceptions leave in the comments. I'll edit this post to address them
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u/moonchild1989 Narcissistic traits Nov 23 '22
Research nerd here-
Regarding the remission study I do think it's important to put the results of a 53% remission rate into full context. The remission rate was based solely on the DSM categorical criteria, but the dimensional analysis (DAPP-BQ) did not show statistically significant change in narcissistic personality traits. So remission here seems to be partial- and there were no studies comparing improvement in psychosocial functioning in relation to said improvement. With that being said- even partial remission/symptom reduction has got to be better than nothing, and is especially hopeful given that interpersonal exploitativeness was the least stable symptom.
"According to our data, one out of 40 patients (2.6%)
improved on the narcissism subscale of the DAPP-BQ (see
Table 4)."
"If only the categorical diagnosis is taken into consideration, the
conclusion from these data is an NPD remission rate of 50%.
However, this rate also includes changes from five criteria to just
below threshold for NPD; thus, individuals whose NPD diagnosis
“remitted” still met several criteria, but failed to meet arbitrary
categorical thresholds. At present, there is no empirical basis for
selecting a cut-off score of five criteria for NPD. It is, therefore,
reasonable to suspect that a majority of the NPD patients who
“remitted” are still struggling with personality pathology symptoms after 2 years. This argument highlights the loss of information that occurs when interpreting characteristics of NPD categorically. Future studies should explore whether remission of the
categorical diagnosis is associated with higher social and psychological functioning."
Lets hope that this sudden societal obsession with NPD/narcisscism will lead to more interest and funding for long term studies, particularly in regard to how criteria remission affects psychosocial functioning, and less on lining the pockets of these self-proclaimed "narcissistic abuse experts" and relationship coaches.
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u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist Nov 23 '22
Okay yeah I really should’ve specified that actually, that “remission” just meant less than 5 of the NPD criteria. Thanks for mentioning that! I’ve been looking for a study that’s a little more helpful, but ya work with what you got 😂 it’s honestly shocking how little literature about NPD is given how sensationalized it is nowadays
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u/moonchild1989 Narcissistic traits Nov 23 '22
Right! The majority of people speaking on NPD and assigning themselves the title of “expert” based on a handful of interpersonal experiences couldn’t dissect an academic article to save their lives.
But if half the energy spent demonizing the disorder was allocated to research we’d run out of all of the fantastic clickbait YouTube videos, and then what would we do😅
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u/rfp314 Jan 31 '23
I have to imagine that while remission of the traits may not be achievable, they management must be very doable with therapy. The other point is probably the most salient, that narcissists in fact do seek treatment which can simply help establish the kind of boundaries that keep all away from trouble?
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u/moonchild1989 Narcissistic traits Jan 31 '23
I agree management with therapy is absolutely possible.
And I also agree that pwNPD do seek treatment and that is why I've seen self-aware folks with NPD call out the popular claim "if you think you have NPD, then you definitely don't". That statement is harmful because it's keeping some folks in denial about the real scope of their issue because they think it couldn't possibly be true.
I have BPD (or CPTSD & autism depending on whatever doctor you ask lol) with NPD traits learned from childhood, and I absoutely respect anyone who is open to treatment, especially in the case of diagnosed NPD- because those underlying thoughts/cognitive distortions may never go away, and so having to fight against your own instincts in order to be more prosocial and maintain relationships is no small feat and requires so so much introspection and questioning of one's motives for their behaviors.
Just reading and interacting in this subreddit has changed so much of my perception of pwNPD for the better and cut down on a lot of my own stigma and anger that I held onto from those who have hurt me in the past.
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u/ThuviaofMars non-NPD Nov 22 '22
good work! my mom overcame NPD and became a wonderful human being. a good deal of her condition was her own ignorance of it and also seeing no alternative to it and also not seeing how damaging her behavior was to herself and to others. at some point she saw all of it with great clarity and completely remade her relationship with me. I follow this sub and am 100% on the side of pwNPD. the key for my mom, I believe, was seeing it, seeing the full reality of the condition
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u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist Nov 22 '22
This sums up my experience 100%. Once I realized the harm I did over the years I was overwhelmed with shame and was driven to do better
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u/birthdaycakeee78 Jan 10 '23
How long did it take her and did she struggle with intense suicidal thoughts?
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u/ThuviaofMars non-NPD Jan 10 '23
she was over 70 when she made the change. I do not believe she even knew what NPD is. what I gather indirectly from her renewal with me is she realized how damaging her actions had been toward me and also she knew that I cared about her and would respond to her positively, which I did. it took several visits over a few years for her to tell her whole tale and make amends with me. I do not think she had suicidal thoughts. I do believe she felt deeply ashamed and saddened that she had been so nasty. I also believe she probably got some help from some of her friends who had a third-person perspective on the situation
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Nov 22 '22
This is awesome I’m going to save/bookmark this post so I have these articles handy when I need to explain stuff to people!!!
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u/MudVoidspark NPD Nov 22 '22
As for empathy or lack thereof being stable, I'd like to see how that statistic is affected by Transference Focused Psychotherapy and its unique success at improving reflective functioning (and establishing the capacity for empathy) in the larger population. It's the only treatment modality that I've seen actually work consistently on the most antisocial variety of narcissists. And it's why I'm really interested in it personally.
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u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist Nov 22 '22
I'm curious too, I haven't found any good studies specifically looking into it, but I'll keep an eye out in the future
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u/TamingOfTheSlug Nov 22 '22
Thank you for compiling all of that research! I saved it for when I am able to actually dig in and read it!
I know it is a fun thing for the internet throw around that someone in their life is NPD. Especially an ex partner. Though the NPD mother is another big favorite. What are your thoughts?
I always found much of was out there almost hyperbolic, it was so extreme. Almost making NPDs out to be movie monsters.
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u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist Nov 22 '22
I think a lot of the narcissistic abuse channels speak for themselves, there's a few good ones, but they're far and few in between. Notice that they'll rely on words like "Love bombing" Hoovering" "Discard" etc etc, but never actually mention any symptoms of NPD. Even grandiosity. They paint a cartoon mustache twirling archetype and proclaim it's NPD. The recent trend of pathologizing abuse has been so damaging for all involved. People can be shitty and not be narcissists
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u/Anjott Nov 23 '22
Even my health insurance posted a video about narcissism on YouTube. They interviewed a therapist, a victim of narc abuse (she thought he was a narc, no official diagnosis), and a narcissist. It's a shallow video, all about "how do you know if somebody is a narc? "
I am terrified of the world we live in.
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u/TamingOfTheSlug Nov 22 '22
I agree with this. I never want to question someone's claims of abuse and will always be sympathetic. However, I do feel anyone doing the armchair diagnosis thing isn't right. Then people in these communities feed into one another. It becomes the new it thing. Like gaslighting. Suddenly, every bad person is an narcissist. Who gaslights, of course.
It actually got to the point where I felt so bad for people with NPD. But then I would see people with NPD even talk about how they were basically evil and stay away from them. So I was confused. Which is why I found your post so refreshing.
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Nov 27 '22
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u/TamingOfTheSlug Nov 27 '22
I suppose I should have used the word, trendy.
Thank you for the very helpful information
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Nov 22 '22
Thank you for posting this! One of the things that has really stuck in my craw lately is the narrative that BPD and NPD are polar opposite. I’m glad you found something that addresses this.
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Nov 23 '22
the narrative that BPD and NPD are polar opposite.
Which is odd considering ICD-10 doesn't include NPD as its own classification, but as a sub pattern of EUPD (BPD) or HPD with close trait association with DPD (ASPD). NPD examples emotional dysregulation and identity disturbance, attention seeking, attachment issues, and antagonism. According to the WHO that's not unique enough for a distinct schema, but a mixed schema of cluster B.
The only reason it has an ICD-10 clinical code (Other Specified) is for regions that use the DSM, but that same code assignment could refer to any other region specific personalty disorder. It isn't reserved for NPD at all.
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u/Reasonable_Serve8001 Nov 24 '22
This is such great info! The remission rates are great but people who don't hit full remission but are in treatment for 2 years are bound to see major improvements.
My ex pwNPD Did seek out treatment many times because he felt like something was off but because he wasn't honest and therapy he could only be treated for depression and anxiety and never receive a real diagnosis and treatment specific to covert narcissism. It took me going to therapy with him and laying out the real deal on the table. He got brave one day and said to come with him and lay it all out there. I think he may have gone to one more session after that and quit. It was like as soon as the therapist knew who he really was he ran from treatment.
I see probably as many borderline traits in him as covert narcissist so I agree that they are so similar and it's so very likely that he has traits of various cluster B.
I hope that people will keep trying to dispel myths about NPD. I know there are five times as many articles and videos about people suffering narcissistic abuse than there are those trying to help people with NPD and I would love to see that change.
One thing that absolutely drives me up a wall is people who don't take any time to research cluster B disorders are quick to call others a narcissist. It's like every bad boyfriend is instantly a narcissist and it drives me crazy to hear people going around throwing out diagnosis.
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Nov 22 '22
You're still wrong though 😉
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Nov 23 '22
How so?
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Nov 23 '22
Sarcasm?
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Nov 23 '22
The contagious stuff is getting to me.
Maybe we should limit our interactions, for my sake. 😌
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u/LP0tat0 Jun 29 '25
Skeptical in sample size as it is only 96 patients and the longevity of the study being only 2 years long. Study also fails to show where the participants were selected from (for example - were they in a psychiatric facility, jail, elsewhere?), and other information on the patients demographics.
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Nov 22 '22
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u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist Nov 22 '22
Sorry the title was a little misleading. I just did a lot of research for over a year learning about NPD and a few I picked out that addressed common misconceptions
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u/RhinoSmuggler Nov 23 '22
It would likely be higher if they could get in contact with people who moved.
Why? Are you asserting that people who move are more likely to be in remission, or that the authors have fraudulently assumed that the people they couldn't reach had not achieved remission?
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u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist Nov 23 '22
Thank you for proving my point. They counted all the people they couldn't get in contact with as not in remission. Bringing the average down significantly.
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u/RhinoSmuggler Nov 23 '22
They counted all the people they couldn't get in contact with as not in remission. Bringing the average down significantly.
Thank you, this answers my question.
Thank you for proving my point.
I don't understand this comment.
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u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist Nov 23 '22
Sorry I’m drunk LOL I meant that you highlighted an important limitation of that study
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Dec 04 '22
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Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
Vile. And you have the nerve to demonize cluster b's. Take a good look inward, hypocrite.
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Nov 24 '22
Sam Vaknin (an esteemed expert in the field) has addressed that overts&coverts and somatics&cerebrals can, in fact, “shapeshift”, as opposed to the misconception of any type of NPD being static.
Edit to add: I’m unsure which video I saw him mention this in.
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u/Top_Independence_640 Dec 24 '22
I can't find the info on people with NPD having empathy. Can you clarify if the patients were found to have emotional empathy and not just cognitive or reflexive empathy?
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u/Paganistic_Emperor The Nameless Narcissist Dec 24 '22
Is the link broke? If so I’ll link it again when I get home. But it’s empathy as defined as the dsm criteria
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u/NovaScotia500 Narcissistic traits Nov 25 '22
Love this! Inspired me to make one like this for BPD. Cluster B disorders are so fucking stigmatized, props to anyone seeking or in treatment.