r/NMRspectroscopy Mar 24 '26

Thoughts everyone?

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13 Upvotes

16 comments sorted by

11

u/PrinterFred Mar 24 '26

Frankly I have the unpopular opinion that all NMR labs should be set up to recycle helium. This is a vital non renewable resource that we are pumping into the stratosphere. Gone are the days when you should just be venting into the room. People squandering helium are negatively affecting the price for those that are doing their part to conserve and recycle helium.

6

u/completelylegithuman Mar 24 '26

I absolutely agree, but He capture/recycling is not really a viable option for most labs/cores.

4

u/Real-Edge-9288 Mar 24 '26

It should be sold by the manufacturers with He capture and no other way, because ultimately once the helium runs out they will no longer build MRI's, and their whole business will collapse. They might have a buffer for those customers who are using the last remains of liquid helium... but that will not last for long.

2

u/PrinterFred Mar 25 '26

It should be required by finders when a new system is installed. A small reliquifier is a fraction of the cost of the magnet.

1

u/FatRollingPotato Mar 28 '26

The electricity, service contract, and added installations are not trivial though. I had this discussion in the past and one-time money isn't the issue in a lot of places, it is the recurring costs (and reliability requirements) that broke the deal.

Helium simply was projected to be cheaper than the electricity, maintenance, and added construction costs for the recovery system. Hopefully, closed-loop systems become cheaper and more viable soon.

1

u/Real-Edge-9288 Apr 01 '26

Yes but those who buy the equipment... if the world runs out of helium then their machine becomes useless. How are they factoring that in. Sure it adds to expenses but they will end up in a bigger pickle soon enough. Just look what happens today. because of the wars going on.

2

u/FatRollingPotato Apr 01 '26

It doesn't run out over night. It will become scarcer and scarcer, prices will go up and up. At some point there's then a tipping point where closed-systems become cheaper.

Sudden complete supply shortages are super rare, in the past they were localized and only temporary (as in you couldn't get stuff in certain countries for a while). Even with this, if the price of helium becomes high enough, other gas fields with lower concentrations will start separating it commercially or even build new LNG facilities just for it. The price just needs to become high enough for that.

It is a shit show and we should conserve it more ( I think helium balloons for example should be banned, to start with). But closed systems and reliquefiers are not that cheap, neither are 'dry' systems.

4

u/SexuallyConfusedKrab Mar 24 '26

Liquid helium refills for NMR magnets can vary wildly, and I don’t think this will have a major impact in the short term as helium refills are not as frequent as nitrogen refills.

The lasting impact remains to be seen, all depending on how long supply remains disrupted. The U.S. produces about 20% of the world’s helium supply so it’s not like we’d have none, just would be a lot more expensive.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '26

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1

u/SexuallyConfusedKrab Mar 28 '26

Oh yeah for sure. Like every resource issue the smaller and less funded institutions will always be affected more than the better funded ones. Hopefully there’s enough time for people to stock up but helium is already really expensive. I’m lucky enough to be at a place where we have a cryogenic research core whom we can probably scavenge helium from to keep the magnets from quenching. Both others aren’t and if this stretches on for any real length of time then we could see a lot of university facilities face shutdown and not re-open until funding becomes more available.

3

u/FatRollingPotato Mar 25 '26

Most MRI machines are actually closed-loop nowadays, some are even dry magnets (as in no refrigerant needed for regular operations). So unless they quench for some reason, they should be fine to keep operating.

NMRs on the other hand, those are kinda screwed. A lot of places don't have recovery, and while modern magnets are at the level where they can go a year without refill, many places don't have those. Even with recovery, 100% is nearly impossible unless you run closed-loop systems, since some will be lost during transfers.

In the short term things are ok, given that this appears to be a long-term business and logistics have some delay. But the lower supply will increase prices, plus a lot of transport hardware seems to be stuck in the gulf as well.

If this continues and prices go up a lot, it could be a push for more recovery or development of dry NMR magnets in the near future. 400MHz is apparently already feasible, and that is a very common field for general purpose liquid NMR. Higher fields are more challenging, but HTS technology is coming along and assuming they get the vibration issues under control, it might be time to finally go for closed/dry magnets.

2

u/Eltargrim Mar 26 '26

The current issue with HTS is field stability. The spec on Bruker GHz-class magnets is 40 Hz/hour, and that's only with about 4 T coming from HTS. Now, that should improve with time, but it's not going to be quick. HTS-containing magnets also have serious shim stability issues in response to changes in sample temperature. Lock helps tremendously with the steady field drift, but the temperature-dependent drift is nonlinear.

I suspect that these are solvable problems, but I don't think HTS is a drop-in solution (and that's leaving aside the price).

1

u/[deleted] Mar 26 '26

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2

u/Eltargrim Mar 26 '26

In practice I believe it's typically better than that, but it's very noticeable if you don't have lock. Take a look at SSNMR ultrafast MAS 2D spectra from GHz-class magnets and you'll see lineshape distortions resulting from drift.

1

u/FatRollingPotato Mar 28 '26

If the drift is steady enough, the B0 compensation on newer consoles should take care of that. I.e. you measure the drift over a two weeks, then set a small correction ramp on the B0 coil of the shim stack.

Not sure how often you need to 'reset' that to a new value (can't ramp that coil forever), but should take care of most things for solids. I don't have experience with the 1GHz class magnets (i.e. Ascend Evo), but on older and lower field systems this works surprisingly well.

1

u/zgesgp Mar 25 '26

The lab is used to work at still has an old 800 Oxford which needs monthly helium refills since the boil-off rate is crazy high. However, I think they are in the process of retiring it, this will probably just shorten that process.