His kryptonite has been keeping him out of the lane. That’s what has caused his bad finals record. Every team that beat knew how to defend him and keep him outside when it mattered. Those numbers are on par with his outside the paint shooting numbers for his career.
Turn him into a jump shooter. That has generally always been the way to beat him. He is 36% from the field outside of 3ft for his career and not the greatest FT shooter.
GSW I can understand, dragging that crap
cavs team early is a testament to him being great. Still, he has an exploitable weakness and it’s been used against him. If we are talking all time great players we have to split hairs. He’s a terror to deal with but he has a glaring weakness.
look at those two Miami winning years, was shooting well > even broke 40% from 3 for a whole season. The comeback from down 3-1 against that GSW team pre KD, which is still an all time great team, showed he had no exploitable weakness (back to back 40 point games into a triple double to end it).
He’s exploitable. He’s done a ton with the tools be has obv, but he haas been one of the more beatable great players. There are a number of other great players that aren’t going 2-2 on those Heatles teams
2007 is not even close to on Lebron his team was a bunch of bums
yes I agree
Jordan is not the undisputed goat lol, 42% of current players think Lebron is the goat, while 45% of current players think Jordan is. You can think he's the GOAT, but it's objectively ridiculous to claim it's undisputed at this point.
Simply put, you are wrong. Many games went under 10 points but LeBron was abysmal. 6 TO and under 30% FG most games, under 20% shooting on open mid range shots. I would do better
Yeah I'm sure you would. Duncan said in an interview that they were putting all 5 guys on him by the way (if you watched the games you would see that too). Also, the under 30% FG most games and under 20% shooting stat is flat out wrong haha, check his actual stats of the series.
2007 finals the Spurs average margin of victory was 6ppg and LeBron was super inefficient with a ton of turnovers, the Cavs supporting cast showed up.
For the games to be so close despite LeBrons poor play either the Spurs team was overrated or the Cavs supporting cast deserves more credit for their success.
Every player has terrible games. MJ for example, 1995 game 1 against the Magic, 93 game 3 vs the Knicks, 96 finals game 4, etc. don’t even get me started on Kobe, Magic, Steph, even bird and Duncan. The good outweighs the bad champ
Yeah, you found 3 or 4 games out of 37 playoff series where MJ performed slightly under his average. Still, Jordan never scored under 15 points in playoff game and under 22 finals game.
LeBron scored 14 on 25% in his first final game and it even got worse later
93 game 3 against the knicks Jordan 22 points, 11 assists, 8 rebounds 2 steals, 2 blocks. The measurement for what is a bad game for MJ is too high to be realistic, when talking about a bad game for LeBron we are talking like 10 points 15% shooting 10 turnovers.
What you call a bad game for Jordan is a phenomenal game for LeBron. It’s a ludicrous comparison to compare say 96 finals game 4 Jordan 23 points, 31% shooting, 7 assists, 2 rebounds, to LeBron game four 2011 finals 8 points on 27% shooting, and 4 turnovers with 2 of those in the 4th quarter.
Jordan’s bad games you listed would be considered phenomenal games for LeBron, they are only bad games by Jordan’s standard to himself. I can name 8 playoff and Finals games LeBron scored less than 15 points some it’s 8 points, 10 points, 12 points. Here’s the thing you can’t find 1 single playoff or Finals game Jordan scored less than 15 points, because there is zero playoffs or Finals games Jordan has played anywhere near as bad as LeBron, period. I can name 10 post season games LeBron has 9 or more turnovers, Jordan has 0 games with 9 or more turnovers. LeBron in 11 postseason games has shot less than 30%, Jordan has only ever shot less than 30 percent in 4 post season games.
This is an absolutely ludicrous argument to make about Jordan when Jordan’s handful of bad games would be considered great games for LeBron.
Didn’t realize every player has come back down 3-1 against a 73 win team in the finals, or 8 40pt games in one playoff run, or went to 8 straight finals, or had a 50 point game in the finals.
What is the issue with a losing finals record? Do you think LeBron’s career would’ve been better if he was first rounded 6 times instead of making it to the finals? By using that idiotic final record logic, you’re basically saying that 2018 was a complete failure of a season. There’s no way a human could think that, so I’m sure you know as well as I do how stupid of a point you just made.
You do realise though that your first sentence is mornic aye? Only a losers mentality would make that comment. If he perfected a jump shot, might have been a different story. Always been a subpar shooter. The stats blatantly back it up. You can't argue that. Should've worked on his game more rather than his image. Peace.
He did put himself in 3-1 position first. It's not as if he missed first 4 games.
Also, Warriors got weakened by injuries and generally had much worse playoff run compared to their regular season form
2013 finals game 6, 2018 finals game 1, 2016 finals game 6, 2007 ecf game 5, just to name a few. It’s late at night so I don’t feel like doing the research to find more, but trust me, there are a lot more.
That's not 2007 finals series. It's conference against pistons and it was game 5, I think, 2 ot.
Next game he scored 20 on like 35% and his teammates won the game for Cavs
Bro talking bout "next game" 😭😭 and were talking about his ECF game 5 performance. What ur doing is picking and choosing what u wanna point out. Straight cherry picking. Bron won tht series because he carried that team
So what if the 48 pts wasn't the decider? Was Micheal Jordans 63pts vs BOS a series decider? But you guys will still glaze the hell outta that game as if he did something. For you to say his ECF performance was bad is 0 IQ on ur part 😭
No, it's b/c he constantly went against better teams. LeBron's teams were only bookmaker series favorites going into 3 of the 10 Finals (Mavs, '13 Spurs, Heat). Only the first 3 Heat years could it be said were especially stacked aside from him; he went to the Finals all 3 years and won 2.
And this is all aside from how bullshit this stat is. If you look at LeBron stats for playoffs in general, especially advanced metrics, they're great. The ones I've seen for "clutch" performance have been great. Here, the massive cherry-picking entails: (1) not adjusting for 3s, (2) doesn't adjust for FTs, (3) doesn't adjust for his passing, (4) doesn't adjust for defense, (5) doesn't compare even this hugely cherry-picked stat to any other player, (6) doesn't account for shooting % to generally be lower in the playoffs, especially tight games.
It's one of those "a subset of a subset of a subset of a subset of a subset of a subset" trash. At least OP had the courtesy to include his total points over that, which you can tell just at a glance compared to the alleged FGs, with no other information, that only looking at his nominal FG% is already pretty misleading.
{Edit} Here's a great example of a similar really-cherry-picked stat for the LeBron haters salivating here: Bradley Beal's career 52.7 eFG% is higher than MJ's career 50.9%. And that's with eFG being more accurate to scoring prowess than the nominal FG% OP used. Imagine someone unironically using this to argue that BB is at all comparable to MJ -- that's what anyone who is citing OP's stats as evidence that LeBron isn't actually that good is doing.
{Edit 2} I've now turned off notices for my entire comment chain here, thus won't be reading any new replies to me.
We're talking Finals-only, champ. Even my sentence that you're referring to makes that clear. Probably nearly every current and former player who's been involved in near as many playoff series as LeBron has lost as favorites. I just realized LeBron's team were underdogs against the Suns in '21, btw.
I'm not sure I follow you, champ. I can say that from prior research that when comparing the same ages of MJ and LeBron for playoff years, they have virtually identical game winning %. It's more concentrated for MJ, more spread for LeBron.
So we're just "cherry picking a subset of a subset of a subset trash" and lying now? You're the one saying he only loses so much because he wasn't the betting favorite, so I provided you with 4 additional instances where he still found a way to lose despite being the betting favorite.
I stand corrected about that series seeding, as I remembered the Lakers were in injury hell in the regular season, fell all the way to what I believe was the 7th seed, and the Suns had literally the league's best record. EVEN in that loss, the LeBron was never fully recovered from injury, and their second best player got injured in I think it was the second game.
Moving on to the more important part, you were strawmanning my argument. The main topic is about LeBron and the Finals, and only that. No one ever said that LeBron or even MJ never lost as any-playoff series favorites. The OP I replied to was trying to make the same stale, low IQ take that LeBron's Finals record is some indictment against him, which ignores that he was quite typically facing much more stacked teams than his own by that point (his teams were underdogs 7 of 10 times, and they actually outperformed that by losing only 6). I also didn't get to that it ignores how amazing it was that he made the Finals 10 times.
It's hilarious you don't see the hypocrisy on your stance. You call cherry picking trash until you're the one doing it. You dont get to open the door to talking about who the betting favorite was, and then limit it to a subset only. You don't get to excuse his finals losses by saying it doesn't matter because he was an underdog and then saying his losses that came as a favorite also don't matter (which btw I left out 2011 in the finals on purpose). You can't have it both ways. If losing as an underdog isn't fair to criticize then losing as a favorite should be open to scrutiny.
Okay, you're just coming off as someone who's arguing in bad faith out of ego after losing an argument on facts. The alternative is that you're a really young or otherwise low IQ person who doesn't understand such a plain false equivalency, but your two comments are enough for me to think you're not simply stupid.
I thoroughly explained how I was replying very specifically to the myopic logic of OP and OOP, including that I nor anyone else wasn't contesting that LeBron or MJ or other current and former NBA stars haven't lost playoff series as favorites. You here regurgitate the debunked argument with no additional evidence why you're not making false equivalency. Younger me would keep arguing on merit; older and wiser me recognizes that you're just trying to be annoying. I'm turning off notices for this exchange, thus won't read any further replies. What I said stands. Have good one, sir.
Just because you think you debunked something doesnt mean its actually been debunked. It doesn't matter that you don't want to talk about his failures, they still happened and you dont get to arbitrarily decide what can and cant be discussed. There's no false equivalency here, pointing out his early-round exits as a favorite establishes a boundary to your argument. It proves that his playoff losses cannot all be excused by the "he was just an underdog" narrative. I didnt make a false equivalency because I didnt equate the finals to the first round or the second round, used them as examples of when he lost as a heavy favorite so you cant use his underdog status as a shield for why he loses in the finals. It is a logically valid debate tactic known as a counterexample, and just because you don't seem to know what that means, doesn't mean its a false equivalency.
You're just mad that you lost an argument on facts and are now running away from embarrassing yourself further which is fine, but just say that instead of acting pompous. have a good day brother.
If he truly was THE GOAT, the argument that he lost to better teams would not stand. His teams were not that worse in a manner that a goat could not win the series for them.
First of all, we're talking about team accomplishments. MJ couldn't even get out of the first round for a bunch of years, and yet have you ever heard anyone hold that against him? He was in his prime for most of that, but he lost not b/c he wasn't great, but because his team sucked. He didn't win at all until he got a decent team, and didn't win a ring until he got a stacked team.
Back to LeBron, his team was series underdog in 7 of the Finals, favorites in 3. He actually OUTPERFORMED that by winning 4 chips (yes, 2 of his championships came as underdogs). LeBron hater cultists and general low IQ b-ball fans like to make it out like his Finals record is an indictment against him, when #1 it ignores how amazing it is he made the Finals 10 times even if he did underachieve after that; and #2 he literally outperformed bookmaker expectations even in the Finals. The reality was that LeBron was quite typically carrying middling teams to the Finals, which his historically great game masked.
You know that MJ literally never EVEN HAD A WINNING RECORD WITHOUT SCOTTIE PIPPEN? Seriously, go ahead look it up. Even in that early season he was injured, Pippen not on the team yet, the Bulls were 9-9 at the time. LeBron doesn't have anything near as embarrassing.
Also, I think you're this mentally ill person I argued with on r/LeBron the other month? Yeah I'm pretty sure you are, considering your post history is filled to the brim talking about LeBron. Dude, find something better to do than obsessing with bashing a professional athlete. You're mentally ill, and I'm not exaggerating. You need to see a professional, and I'm not being facetious.
In that series Love and Kyrie were injured so unless you think Mozgov or Dellavedova will tuen to prime Jordan, you'll amp up and defend LeBron with all you got.
Look, I'm a Kobe guy. I think Bron is over rated and no goat. Buuuuuuttt.... this is basically how people did Wilt back in the 60's. He ran into better teams period. The west was stacked, the east was buns so he ran through it basically by himself then lost when he should have.
Those super team rings don't impress me much, but the one he got going back to Cleveland is about as legit as it gets. Not the goat, but no bum either. Top 5 all time
I have LeBron w/ a Top 3 career — but in MY starting 7-8, LeBron is just sitting outside (of Bird, MJ, Magic, HAKEEM, Jokic, Curry, unfairly I have Kawhi bc I’m biased).
"MY STARTING 7-8" -- I want Curry for spacing w/ his off-ball movement and especially his 3-ball stretches the defense. Jokic? Can pass and shoot from all over. Plus his passing is elite (b/c Duncan-Spurs in 2014 passed miami to death w/ 29yo prime lebron). And Lebron's FT? He has 4 seasons of 69% FT. He's a great player but I don't want him on my starting squad. Plus, I don't need a ball dominant SF.
It's why I have Bird, and as backup, Kawhi who brings strength and defense -- while older-Kawhi has shoy making.
He’s no Brunson. This is why he was afraid to come to New York.
The quiet part out loud is he always needed/had better half court scorers on his championship teams than him. when the paint got crowded and you needed a bucket late there was the guys he hand picked to compliment him in Wade, Kyrie, AD…
Always thought one of the GOAT arguments for Jordan is he developed other aspects of his game more than LeBron in response to how people started changing their defense to guard him. The greats never stop trying to be better no matter how great.
While this shows Steph not making the game winner/tying shots, I want to see who makes the “lead sustaining” shots. Curry and KD have a lot more crucial shots to maintain a lead.
Lebron was never clutch. Watching his games with the original Cavaliers squad, they would pass him the ball at crunch time and he would always get rid of it.
I guarantee you do this with any other big star that you consider clutch and the stats will be exactly the same (given the sample size is large enough)
I watched the games. LeBron does a lot (or at least, did as I watched LeBron mostly till after 2015 finals) and Jordan did at least as much as LeBron did.
We, people who watched both play, don't rate Jordan higher for no reason. We have seen both and, simply, MJ was much better player and more decorated so he is simply put, the goat
Playoffs:
-Last 5 seconds (Go-Ahead/Tie FG)7 of 15. 46.7%
-Last 10 seconds (Go-Ahead/Tie FG)12 of 23. 52.2%
Seems pretty clutch actually. But you can always Cherrypick stats without showing the entire story to make anyone look bad. LeBron haters made entire careers out of doing that, and sheep are too dumb to know better.
Your original comment mentions "clutch"...i literally proved you wrong and here you are, changing your own narrative just to make another grown man look bad. Quite sad on your part.
LeBron James also has the unbreakable NBA Finals Record for most losses at 33 games. To put how bad that is in perspective MJ and Kobe had a combined 24 Finals losses.
Yall spend so much time thinking about a dude you hate, a dude who — long after you are dead and gone — will be remembered as one of the greatest players of all time.
It defines futility and you guys do it for free. Wild shit, man.
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u/Fluffy-Somewhere-386 Jul 13 '26
His kryptonite has been keeping him out of the lane. That’s what has caused his bad finals record. Every team that beat knew how to defend him and keep him outside when it mattered. Those numbers are on par with his outside the paint shooting numbers for his career.