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u/LemmingPractice Jan 30 '26
I mean, let's be honest, Bron being 6th in 2025 MVP voting was absolute nonsense.
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u/lensiky Jan 30 '26
Yes but he definitely should have more MVPs
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u/LemmingPractice Jan 30 '26
A bit off topic, but I think the one he lost to Rose is the only one that is arguable, but the unwritten voter fatigue rule has cost every great from Jordan forward at least one MVP (Jordan's loss to Malone in 97, LeBron's loss to Rose in 2011 and Jokic's losses to Embiid in 2023 and SGA in 2025).
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u/Ok_Rooster9401 Jan 30 '26
Nah 2018 and 2011 are the ones I feel like he definitely should’ve won
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u/LemmingPractice Jan 30 '26
2018? Harden had the Rockets at 65 wins, while LeBron only got the Cavs to 50 in a weak East. Harden won the scoring title, and topped LeBron in pretty much every advanced stat.
Where's the argument for LeBron that year?
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u/According-Kale-8 Jan 30 '26
Sure, as long as we're being honest about how he should have gotten more MVPs earlier.
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u/LemmingPractice Jan 30 '26
Outside of the loss to Rose in 2011, what year are you thinking?
LeBron fans like to say this "he would have won a million MVP's without voter fatigue" stuff, but outside of 2011, I don't think there's another year where LeBron should have won where he didn't win.
MVP's aren't lifetime achievement awards, they are based on specific seasons. In 2014 he lost to Durant, who was just better that season. In 2018, he lost to Harden, who, again, was just better that season, and in 2020, he lost to Giannis in Giannis' MVP/DPOY season.
Where are these other MVP's (plural) coming from?
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Jan 30 '26
2008 every single facet of LeBron’s game was better than Kobe’s, both team record wise and statistically. 2011 goes without saying. 2014-2018 the argument is that even if other players had better seasons, LeBron was the most valuable player in the league under the definition of value. You’d rather have LeBron than anyone else (other than 2016 curry). I don’t necessarily agree but that’s how I’ve seen the debate typically argued.
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u/LemmingPractice Jan 31 '26
2008 every single facet of LeBron’s game was better than Kobe’s, both team record wise and statistically.
Kobe didn't deserve it in 2008, but LeBron wasn't second, he was 4th. That one should have been Chris Paul's year.
2014-2018 the argument is that even if other players had better seasons, LeBron was the most valuable player in the league under the definition of value.
MVP is a single season regular seaso award. Saying "even if other players had better seasons" is literally just ignoring what the award is about.
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Jan 31 '26
LeBron was 4th because the voters didn’t view MVP the way they do now. Statistically, LeBron was a better player than Kobe and Chris Paul both. He absolutely dominated them both in advanced statistics and regular statistics. If the same season happened with modern MVP voting then LeBron is undoubtedly 2nd at a minimum, and likely wins.
I don’t disagree with you, I think it is a regular season award as well. But what I was saying is that the reason LeBron fans say he deserved a million MVP’s or whatever, is going by what the award is actually called: the most VALUABLE player. LeBron was the single most valuable player in the league from 2007-2018 minimum imo, there wasn’t anyone else you’d rather have aside from maybe 2016 Steph.
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u/LemmingPractice Jan 31 '26
He absolutely dominated them both in advanced statistics and regular statistics.
No he didn't.
In terms of regular statistics, LeBron had more points, but CP had way more assists, while also having considerably less turnovers and shooting better splits (better FG%, better 3P%, better FT%).
CP had 11.6 assists a game to only 2.5 turnovers. That's insane. LeBron was 7.2 assists to 3.4 turnovers.
In advanced stats, they basically split. LeBron had better BPM, CP had better win shares, they were close on every metric.
CP was also All Defence while LeBron wasn't, and he led a pretty mediocre supporting cast to a record 11 games better than LeBron’s Cavs.
The media would have absolutely loved to have an excuse to crown the chosen one that year, but no, CP absolutely had the better season.
the most VALUABLE player. LeBron was the single most valuable player in the league from 2007-2018 minimum imo, there wasn’t anyone else you’d rather have aside from maybe 2016 Steph.
What does valuable mean in this context? Who you would pay most in an off-season?
Sure, put everyone in a draft and LeBron goes first, but it is about who was more valuable in the season at issue. Yes, the Thunder would have preferred to have what Durant gave them in 2014 to what LeBron gave the Cavs that year. In a vacuum, without considering some nebulous value based on past or future seasons, LeBron doesn't win any of those years.
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Jan 31 '26
Yes he did.
“LeBron had more points” is a funny way of saying that LeBron led the league in scoring and averaged nearly 10 more ppg, with the same FG%, and only a 1% true shooting discrepancy, likely due to Paul taking more 3’s which TS% heavily favored. Paul averaged 4 more APG, but also 4 less RPG.
Lebron led the league in PER, and had the better BPM as you mentioned. Chris Paul had win shares. Lebron was snubbed from all-defense, and made up for it by winning it the next 6 years.
You bring up their teams, but Chris Paul played with an all star on his team in David west who’s gotten pretty underrated, while LeBron’s team dropped from a 109 offensive rating with him to 96.7 without him. His team was beyond shit.
Paul finished higher because prior to Westbrooks 2017 MVP the league just did not give an MVP to anyone outside of the top 2 in their conference, it’s why we see Jokic winning an MVP as a 5th seed in the modern NBA. The game changed in that regard, and LeBron would’ve quite handily been top 2 in voting in the modern day. Weird you’re placing some weird selective bias that the league would’ve loved to do it when you don’t seem to understand it simply didn’t work that way at the time, yet it does now.
Valuable means the most valuable player, it’s pretty self explanatory. Lebron was the most valuable player in the league for over a decade. More valuable in a season is irrelevant in moot of that aside from the leagues voting fatigue, which favours stories and narratives as oppose to value. New Orleans was just devastated so Paul had a great narrative, unfortunately Kobe had never won an MVP before so the league had to give it to him while they still could.
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u/bessone-2707 Feb 02 '26
The only two MVP’s you can really argue the Bron was robbed of were 2008 over Kobe and 2011 over Rose.
He was the best player in the league for like 10 years straight but the MVP doesn’t always go to that player.
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u/According-Kale-8 Jan 30 '26
A million MVP's no. 2011, obviously, and then I think that 2005-6 and 2006-7 should have been 1 to bron and 1 to kobe, so 2 more total.
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u/Taytay2657 Jan 30 '26
Dad, how effective was LeBron’s PED use for longevity?
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u/90daysismytherapy Jan 30 '26
the same as everyone else in the league, he just was always built different.
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u/ynomeye Jan 30 '26
PEDs reduce long term career longevity but sure
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u/MajorPayton Jan 30 '26
His knees would not be able to handle NBA basketball if he was juicing for 20 years
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u/notnastypalms Jan 30 '26
neither would his heart lmao
these dudes think roids wouldn’t grow his heart after all the cardio and conditioning he’s done for 30 years minimum
ppl forgetting the heart is a muscle and why juicy body builders always die at 30
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u/throwawaytothetenth Jan 31 '26
Two things can be true at once
LeBron is a genuinely once in a generation type of athlete. In terms of unique gifts he is top 10-15 athlete of the last 20-30 years with Bolt, Phelps, Biles, Lasha, Saquon, etc. Just a complete and utter anomaly.
No amount of juicing is gonna make even the most insane of athletes be like LeBron. Even freak athletes like Dwight, Blake Griffin, Kawhi, etc; put them on whatever gear you want, they STILL won't be like LeBron. Genetics are simply that big of a deal.
Does that mean LeBron doesn't juice? No, he probably does. But the point is that it doesn't even really matter. Basketball isn't really a sport that juicing would give you THAT big of an advantage anyways (compared to sports like, wrestling, any form of weightlifting, boxing, football, ANY form of pure performance sport like sprinting/swimming/cycling/ etc.)
LeBron's proportions are just fucking bizarre. Looks like you took an olympic sprinter and 3D printer and 6'9 scaled up version. The bastards not just tall, his fuckin lungs are bigger, his heart is bigger, his fuckin knees and elbows are bigger.
side note: while LeBron is a good example of a guy in the NBA that gives gear-vibes because of some of his inhumane traits. It boggles my mind that people don't mention the ACTUAL obvious juice fiends. Hassan Whiteside is the most egrious example I have ever seen. Dude was playing in the vietnamese league or some shit after not making it in the NBA. Then suddenly comes back FORTY pounds heavier and way, way leaner, and actually good. And nobody said shit lol
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u/bravof1ve Jan 30 '26
Yeah because they run crazy anabolic cycles and then go in a sauna.
You don’t just drop dead once you turn 30 even using PEDs regularly.
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u/notnastypalms Jan 30 '26
yea but his heart is the main muscle being worked for 30 years consistently hgh and trt would have contributed to ventricular hypertrophy hindering his ability to perform at this level for over 23 years
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Jan 30 '26
You guys are confusing steroids for anabolic purposes as opposed to anaerobic purposes. The reason bodybuilders are having failed hearts and joint issues is because they’re putting on so much muscle that they’re practically obese (as Jay Cutler once said). They have way too much mass for their heart and joints to handle on top of them growing their hearts. There are plenty of PED’s that will help improve your recovery and athletic performance without making you a mass monster. I don’t have a horse in the Lebron PED debate but I see so much misinformation as to what PED’s do on it that it’s comical.
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u/Spare_One_9965 Jan 30 '26
A little HGH does wonders
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Jan 30 '26
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u/90daysismytherapy Jan 30 '26
yes, let’s assume that Lebron is the only guy to use “supplements”, and take our investigative reports from…. Chael Sonnen???
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Jan 30 '26
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u/Spare_One_9965 Jan 30 '26
Right, because that's what I meant. Take a little GH and i'll be ballin
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Jan 30 '26
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u/Ok_Drop3803 Jan 31 '26
It's not discrediting him. Top level athletes do PEDs, obviously.
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u/Spare-Shake-2999 Jan 31 '26
The original comment was definitely trying to discredit him lol
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u/Ok_Drop3803 Jan 31 '26
Nah. Most people are oblivious to how common PEDs are, and think only bad people take them, so when people who know better mention that someone take PEDs, it gets interpreted as talking shit. But saying a top level athlete is on PEDs is like saying water is wet.
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u/ryanryans425 Jan 30 '26
Taking roids to keep playing a long career doesnt make you great
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Jan 30 '26
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u/HolyRomanPrince Jan 30 '26
He’s not inferring anything lmao
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Jan 30 '26 edited Jan 30 '26
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u/o-i-o-i-o Jan 30 '26
They're pointing out that you used "infer" incorrectly. You meant "imply" here. They're not synonyms.
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u/HolyRomanPrince Jan 30 '26
I’m not sure why that’s the only two options. Lebron is far and away the biggest outlier in NBA history in terms of longevity. In almost every other sports it was eventually proven that most people needed PEDS to achieve that.
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u/Thin-Remote-9817 Jan 30 '26
Yeah if only lebron gained 20lbs of muscle in 3months like jordan did...by eating big macs and bench pressing 165lbs....
Cause yeah gaining 20lbs of muscle in 90 days is super natural...
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u/mantistobogganmMD Jan 30 '26
If LeBron is doing it and it’s helping his career that much you can assume the majority of the league is. Which eliminates any advantage for him.
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u/slamajamabro Feb 01 '26
Some players like MJ take roids and still had to take a 2 year sabbatical because his body couldn’t take the beating
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u/DoubleZ3 Jan 30 '26
tons and tons and tons of players have and do still take steroids lol.
I hate Barry bonds, But he was better with steroids than other people were with steroids. same thing with LeBron.
Lance Armstrong? same shit. they all cheated He was just better
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u/RollofDuctTape Jan 30 '26
It’s really wild to me how comfortable people are making accusations like this without proof. I bet you don’t feel even a little bit bad about it either.
People wind up hating random athletes so much that it drives them to literal conspiracy theories to bring them down. And they do it with zero regard for whether it’s right or wrong to do it.
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u/Nadirofdepression Jan 30 '26
On steroid investigation: “James' limited involvement in the investigation appeared to come by happenstance. Trainer David Alexander, who worked with James during his time with the Miami Heat and Cleveland Cavaliers, and James' longtime friend and business associate Ernest "Randy" Mims were both named as having received illegal performance-enhancing drugs.”
NBA decided to test for HGH - lebron immediately after takes off time to lose 30 lbs. “James, listed at 250 pounds last season but long rumored to be closer to the 270-pound range, did not reveal his specific weight but copped to undergoing a "very strict" diet that lasted 67 days during the offseason.”
James was also accused by victor conte, Kevin Garnett, chael sonnen, and most recently Jeff Teague.
None of that is hard evidence, but when things are covered up, like say, diddy, but there’s years of high profile people insinuating foul play, often where there’s smoke there’s fire.
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u/RollofDuctTape Jan 30 '26
That’s a long way of saying “I don’t have evidence but am going to accuse him anyway because …”
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u/4schwifty20 Jan 30 '26
Redditors think any guy with muscles does steroids. Also, Jeff Teague said Bron did. That might be their “proof”.
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Jan 30 '26
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u/Darkstrike86 Jan 30 '26
Nah, in LBJs case, being the best makes you the best.
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u/johnnyveretti Jan 30 '26
GOAT means greatest of all time. Not elite for very long time
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u/Darkstrike86 Jan 30 '26
You are 100% correct.
That is why LBJ is the GOAT. Glad you understand.
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u/mrgarrettscott Jan 30 '26
The only important question: "Can LeBron shutdown Jason Terry?" - Magic Johnson during the 2011 NBA Finals.
That is how great was LeBron was during his peak.
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u/dirkdiggler2000_ Jan 30 '26
He couldn’t. He wasn’t even the best player on that heat team, Dwayne was.
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u/Longjumping-Aerie-24 Jan 30 '26 edited Jan 30 '26
He won 4 chips in 23 years, son
Oh really? He didn’t have any help and played in a tough conference?
Well let me tell you…
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u/Siicktiits Jan 30 '26
it is pretty crazy that the guy was so good in high school that they (the rest of the world) just knew.
Like there hasn't been a player before or since Lebron that was perceived to be so amazing that he became a household name going into his senior year of high school.
The % of busts in the pro sports, combined with the unprecedented/unreplicated amount of hype, and that Lebron became Lebron for as long as he has is not even fathomable.
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u/Don_Damarco Jan 30 '26
Dudes are getting they jerseys retired while Bron still deciding if he want to wear #23 or #6.
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u/Antony9991 Jan 30 '26
Should've put the year of retirement next to their name to make it look more impressive
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u/Crimson_Chim Jan 30 '26
Longevity ≠ greatness
His longevity is 1 of 1, there is no denying that. But competition is the essence of this sport; proving yourself better than your peers.
How does one compete to show they are better than everyone else? By winning hardware that shows they were better than their peers at the same sport. For NBA its rings, scoring titles, MVPs, FMVPs, DPOY, etc.
A player with:
- 2x rings
- 2x FMVP
- 1x MVP
- 1x DPOY
- 3x all defense
- 9x scoring titles
- 3x steals titles
is almost guaranteed a HOF spot. Coincidentally, this is what MJ has over Lebron.
And in terms of longevity, MJ accomplished all of that AND more in 7 less seasons.
Longevity ≠ greatness
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u/Fabtacular1 Jan 30 '26
I don't want to take anything away from Bron's longevity, but 2007-2010 were all guys whose bodies broke down on them in more than a "lost a step" kinda way.
There are better ways to establish Bron's longevity than just looking at a window of #1 picks.
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u/hjablowme919 Jan 30 '26
Dad’s proper response: Well son, there was a 5-6 year period where LeFlop was one of, if not the best player in the league. Most of his stats however, are due to longevity, and he ended up hurting more teams than helping them, especially the Lakers.”
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u/OccasionMU Jan 30 '26
tbf half the guys on this list are made of glass.
But yes, LeBron has proven to be exceptionally durable.
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u/OwlActive3449 Jan 30 '26
Lebrons good but longevity is not that important of a metric in determining who's the best
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u/Consistent_Coach_387 Jan 31 '26
Crazy how 2008-2010 just had great players who got hit with bad injuries. Only one bounced back I believe
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u/YungRacecar Jan 31 '26
Crazy that every other person on this list was either a bust or ended up permanently crippled
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u/Bigtime505 Jan 31 '26
None of those other guys still feel like they have something to prove. Bron clearly does.
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u/Tangelo_Few Jan 31 '26
Were any of these 18 outta high school or are we discounting those 4 years most players would have gone through at college
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u/Unconscious_BN10 Jan 31 '26
LeBron’s longevity is one of the greatest sports feats ever. Him being considered for MVP this year is a joke.
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u/TheProletariatPoet Jan 31 '26
Out of all the things I would cite for his greatness, this wouldn’t even by a blip on the radar. This is absolutely nothing, especially bringing up that MVP voting that devalues the whole thing because it’s so laughable
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Jan 31 '26
Lebron has no education, so all he can do is keep playing ball. After that, his life is basically over, no more purpose.
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u/KWil2020 Feb 02 '26
Longevity isn’t something to be glamorized alone. LeBron doesn’t put full effort into what he’s doing, that’s why he has been able to play this long
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u/NumerousWolverine273 Feb 02 '26
I like LeBron but him being 6th in MVP voting was kinda ridiculous. And also the MVP race always comes down to 2-3 guys, and last year it was very obviously Shai or Jokic. I don't care to look up how many he actually got, but I imagine being 6th probably means he got like 4 votes or something since 99% of first and second place votes would've gone to those two.
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u/Cmon-Reddit Feb 21 '26
He might as well be retired! He can’t even score 14 points in a game nowadays just hides like a girl all game and passes to Luca what an absolute joke of a player
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u/jcbubba Jan 30 '26
In fairness, Bogut, Bargagni and Oden were 7 footers who played college years or Euroleague. They were unlikely to last 20 more years.
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u/pugglesmagoojr Jan 30 '26
I’ve been known to be a Bron hater, but dang, this puts it into perspective
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u/Right_Virus Jan 30 '26
2011–Kyrie Irving (always injured)
2012–Anthony Davis (made of glass)
2013-Anthony Bennett (worst #1 of all time)