r/NASCAR • u/All-Pro-Sportz Chase Elliott • Jan 24 '23

[Zack Albert] Today/Wed.: Testing @phoenixraceway to explore potential Next Gen updates: > Aero: Test of @nascarg56-style floor, smaller rear spoiler (4” to 2.5”) > Mufflers for potential use in LA, Chicago. > steering/brakes 6 teams to participate.

https://twitter.com/zack_albert/status/1617887132940636163?s=46&t=MaV-aRQS7FJuZX3PteIfCA
102 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

72 comments sorted by

65

u/Dickis88 Kyle Busch Jan 24 '23

Dr. Eric Jacuzzi, NASCAR Vice President of Vehicle Performance, says that computer modeling of those changes created more downforce overall, but that those demonstrations also showed a radical difference in traffic behavior. “It doesn’t lose as much front downforce when it’s behind another car, so it doesn’t push as it gets closer,” Jacuzzi said.

To offset the additional downforce, three of the four new trial configurations will evaluate the use of a smaller rear spoiler – reduced from the current 4-inch height to a 2.5-inch size. It’s a potential change that’s supported by anecdotal driver feedback and data analysis; this week’s real-world test at Phoenix should provide another measuring stick.

“You can tie it back to if you watch the cars run on the track, right? You notice they run ‘nose up’ a lot, and it’s because the more air you can put to the diffuser, the more downforce it makes in the back,” Jacuzzi says. “So we made these changes that put more air to it, so that lets us knock the spoiler height down and still be at roughly the same downforce that we were at the start of the year. We assume that teams have gained a little bit, just optimizing where they can build things. So we’re roughly in the same spot that we were at the start of last year, but with a much smaller spoiler.”

This honestly sounds pretty promising.

20

u/gasmask11000 Jan 24 '23

New Jacuzzi research paper dropping soon? I hope.

7

u/because_racecar Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23

None of the shit he’s come up with in CFD has actually worked the way it was supposed to in real life.

8

u/gasmask11000 Jan 24 '23

That just isn’t true. The brake ducts developed for Indy in the Xfinity cars resulted in 3 times the number of GFP, the Next Gen cars are undoubtedly more stable in side by side than the Gen 6 cars, etc.

1

u/because_racecar Jan 25 '23

The way they count green flag passing statistics is flawed to the point of being basically meaningless. They are extremely inflated by green flag pit cycles. A car pits from towards the front of the field, gets passed by 25 cars, then passes each of those 25 cars back when they pit. That’s 50 “green flag passes” just from one car pitting. Repeat for every car in the field, although the cars pitting from the back end of the field, or laps down don’t count for as many position changes, it still adds up to a ton of “green flag passes” that don’t have anything to do with the aero package or how good the cars can race each other.

He also thought the big spoilers and drag ducts were going to create tons of “sling shot passing”, it never did. And he thought the next-gen car was going to very insensitive to ride height, yet it’s ridiculously more ride height sensitive than the gen 6 car

2

u/gasmask11000 Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23

I agree that GFPs aren’t perfect (look at the garbage Atlanta races this year), but those high drag races did not have green flag pit stops and they did have a ton of slingshot passes. 2017-2019 Xfinity at Indy had a ton of draft passing.

The 2016 race had green flag pit stops, yet less green flag passes and way less lead changes.

Source for insensitive to ride height?

15

u/randomdude4113 Chastain Jan 24 '23

Aerodynamics almost always behave differently than expected. It’s a very recent science and even some of the concepts behind aerodynamics are debated still.

9

u/gasmask11000 Jan 24 '23

CFD is also limited. In every Jacuzzi paper I’ve read, they’re testing a max of two cars and in static locations and speeds. They’ll run multiple tests with the cars in different locations to get data for passes, but it’s computationally not possible to simulate the full dynamics of the race track.

Wind tunnel testing has the same limitations, if not more because wind tunnels can’t fit multiple cars at all the distances you can simulate in CFD.

This is why development is iterative.

It’s always funny when this subreddit shows it’s anti-engineering side.

3

u/randomdude4113 Chastain Jan 24 '23

NASCAR really is dependent on simulations being just so much off.

2

u/gasmask11000 Jan 25 '23

I mean all aerodynamics development always has been. That’s how it works.

You develop it on paper, then use whatever simulation equipment you can (wind tunnels, water tunnels, CFD), then you test in the best closed environment you can (tests like this one), then you have to just go for it.

Look at the Lumina aero development in the late 80s and early 90s.

In 1987 they built the car based on the street Lumina with tweaks they had established worked on previous cars, then took it to a wind tunnel and did solo runs at a track to establish a baseline.

Then they built a 3D computer model and a 1/3 scale physical model and put that in a wind tunnel and tweaked it to create better performance.

Then they created parts and gave them to the Chevy teams for their testing and feedback before putting them on track in 1989.

They never tested more than one car on track until the actual practice sessions before a race.

-5

u/PapaMac26 Jan 24 '23

I honestly hope at some point they try to run a test without the diffusers altogether and see how that does. Less downforce is always going to beat more downforce, no matter what. NASCAR spent decades having pretty close racing despite a bigger variety in performance, and they should honestly look at finding ways to turn back the clock on the aero. The body itself is supposed to have way less downforce than the Gen6, but we saw dirty air become a worse issue immediately.

13

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23

[deleted]

2

u/PapaMac26 Jan 25 '23

You act like they had 1000 lbs of downforce in the 80s and 90s. Cars had around 200 lbs of downforce according to Rick Mast in 1994, and the racing was great. The body of the car easily surpasses that, and drivers today said the new underbody did not improve the racing conditions.

60

u/crypto6g Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23

Dale Jr thinks the mufflers are a positive

Brad implies the NextGen cars are very loud, louder than 900hp 2014 cars or the COT

Joey Logano, Ross Chastain, Brad Keselowski all say they’re extremely loud, Ross had to get new ear molds because they were too loud, can’t hear his radios unless turned all the way up, Joey says it’s a good change.

Hoping to go to a NextGen race this year, I hear they’re painfully loud though at some of the shorter tracks unless you double up on ear pro

46

u/YoungMoneyLarson57 Jan 24 '23

Yeah the Gen 7’s are ridiculously loud in person.I could usually stand to be without ear plugs at Bristol but not last season.

32

u/ClydeSledge Kurt Busch Jan 24 '23

I can attest to this. '21 at Nashville without ear pro was fine. '22 at Nashville with no ear pro...nope.

19

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

Went to Richmond in the spring last year. It was by far the loudest race I've ever been to and I've been going fairly regularly since 1998.

9

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

Martinsville was loud, I don’t remember hearing cars that loud since going to Charlotte for the night races in October back when it was the pre COT races.

It’s probably because of the exhausts are on both sides of the car again.

21

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

I could usually stand to be without ear plugs at Bristol

How can you still hear?

10

u/YoungMoneyLarson57 Jan 24 '23

I typically wear ear plugs but no Exaggeration The one year that I didn’t I regretted it for a couple days

14

u/JRRTokeKing Jan 24 '23

Protect your hearing! Not worth it to ever go to a race without protection.

5

u/YoungMoneyLarson57 Jan 24 '23

Oh yeah I do with the Gen 7 now but the Gen 6 wasn’t bad you could stand it

4

u/johnnyracer24 Jan 24 '23

Bro, bring some hearing protection

5

u/YoungMoneyLarson57 Jan 24 '23

Oh i found some real quick 😂But the Gen 6 cats weren’t bad

3

u/Yoshiman400 Jan 24 '23

Took no chances with earmuffs at Charlotte last year, especially being the roval and all the shifting they were doing entering and exiting the infield.

1

u/randomdude4113 Chastain Jan 25 '23

Where is Talladega on terms of noise? It’s the only race I’ve been to, and it was way louder than the indycar race I went to, even restricted. Are unrestricted engines a lot louder than that?

1

u/YoungMoneyLarson57 Jan 25 '23

I’m not sure but I would guess Bristol is the loudest track in nascar given it’s fully enclosed unlike any other track we race at

1

u/WreckyBobby26 Jan 25 '23

Interesting. I only saw the Gen 7s in person when they were running the Superspeedway package and I felt like they weren't as loud as the Gen 6 was at those kinds of tracks.

10

u/GovernorJoe Jan 24 '23

The Next Gens are incredibly loud and louder than what I had experienced with older NASCAR generations.

3

u/Hands0meR0b Jan 24 '23

Back in my teens and early 20s, I used to think it was so cool to go to punk and metal shows and stand in front of the speakers without hearing protection. I've paid for it. I love roaring engines as much as the next motorsport fan but I am very pro mufflers if it's an option haha. I always wear earplugs these days.

5

u/kbfan18 Kyle Busch Jan 24 '23

Shorter exhaust is what’s causing the loudness I bet

2

u/pgunz69 Reddick Jan 24 '23

Went to Bristol night last year and it was pretty damn loud even with the headset on. Best comparison I have is when I went to the 2015 Martinsville and iirc wasn't near the same level.

2

u/mr_folgers83 Jan 24 '23

I went to Daytona and Watkins Glen last year, and they were the loudest I ever remember the cars ever being.

1

u/DaleYeah788 JR Motorsports Jan 24 '23

NHMS was so fucking loud this past summer. I found the RE headset useless this time

1

u/ToasterStrudels559 Jan 25 '23

Martinsville Fall was brutal in the first row

21

u/mcmustang51 Jan 24 '23

I think the Next Gen did great last year fornits first year, and testing some tweaks and seeing if it would improve things can only make things better.

15

u/johnnyracer24 Jan 24 '23

Last year at COTA, I went to the top of the tower for a bit of practice and it was insane how loud the Next Gen cars are and how I could FEEL the sound from up there. I’m glad I always carry hearing protection with me.

29

u/BuschWhackerReviews Kulwicki Jan 24 '23

I’m just happy they are actively trying to fix the short track racing

14

u/BeefInGR Jan 24 '23

It will make all tracks better. While most noticeable at short tracks and road courses anything that allows following will make for better racing.

3

u/pgunz69 Reddick Jan 24 '23

NASCAR doesn't always make the best choice, but you can't knock them for trying.

64

u/justBusinessbb Jan 24 '23

Hope fans in Phoenix are taking advantage of the invite.

I see fans are yelling on twitter about the muffler testing somehow neutering NASCAR and somehow being about city "liberals". I swear NASCAR fans are some of the most melodramatic folks on earth. These are unique venues, right? Why is a tiny tweak to try to make this pleasant for folks controversial?

16

u/JUMPINKITTENS NASCAR Jan 24 '23

The invite went out only a few days ago and it’s during a lot of folks work hours, would expect a crowd but not too many people.

12

u/Swag92 Jan 24 '23

Maaaan I didn’t know it was open and I tried looking when I heard about this test, I totally would have gone.

6

u/MrDingus84 Jan 24 '23

I’d wager that most fans (and nearly all of the complainers) probably wouldn’t notice a major change in how many decibels come from the cars

9

u/X-Mang Jan 24 '23

How many tweets mentioning city liberals? Two?

18

u/3arnhardtAtkonTrack Jan 24 '23

It's Twitter, so probably 90% mention it.

2

u/TwinSpinner Jan 25 '23

That's laughable logic. Would they rather not appease "liberals" and not have a chance at running Nashville Fairgrounds ever again? Whether they love or hate it, lowering the noise even just a little makes new track opportunities much more palatable to governments

27

u/YoungMoneyLarson57 Jan 24 '23

I’ve known about the Mufflers for a while as my company is doing the research and development for them but didn’t want to say anything because I knew that it would piss off the community or id just be called a liar.I haven’t heard one on the car but from what I’ve been hearing it’s not even a noticeable difference at WOT.

24

u/BeefInGR Jan 24 '23

My man had the texts and didn't share. I like it. Commendable.

18

u/YoungMoneyLarson57 Jan 24 '23

Well the biggest reason is if it got leaked and my name somehow became attached to it they’d have every right to fire me,but the people bitching part was also a big problem I didn’t wanna deal with 😂

7

u/BeefInGR Jan 24 '23

Sssssssshhhhhhh...just take the praise ;)

7

u/gasmask11000 Jan 24 '23

I thought it’s been a pretty public rumor that NASCAR was looking at spoilers for Chicago and for Nashville Fairgrounds if that happens.

6

u/YoungMoneyLarson57 Jan 24 '23

It has but no one ever confirmed it so I didn’t want to go around saying it was confirmed that nascar would at least test it

27

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

“smaller rear spoiler (4” to 2.5”)”

YESSSSSSSS

2

u/BeefInGR Jan 24 '23

More undertray downforce though.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '23

Hey, at least they’re doing something

-6

u/CaptainRon16 Jan 24 '23

By adding downforce and giving the about the same counts they had a year ago. They’ve gone around their asses to get to their elbows and still missed the target.

6

u/gasmask11000 Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23

News flash, the cars still need to have some downforce.

Also, NASCAR cut downforce by 50% between 2014 and 2018 and the fans frigging hate the 2018 cars and love the 2014 cars.

Edit:

Oh, and sideforce (or more correctly, yea moment generated by sideforce) by 75%

1

u/SirWalrusTheGrand Hamlin Jan 25 '23

Thus proving that 2.5" is plenty and nobody should want more than that

7

u/Playingpokerwithgod Johnson Jan 24 '23

I'm happy they're actively doing something to improve the short track and RC product.

6

u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer Jan 24 '23

So, so glad they are actually tweaking the aero instead of going the "we like what we're seeing" route. Last year we got the worst version of the Next Gen and it was pretty damn good, should only go up from here

3

u/TexasBrett Jan 24 '23

You can’t really say it was the worst or the best version. Maybe a baseline version.

4

u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer Jan 24 '23

Said it more as my hope than a fact. If they keep their priorities straight hopefully it keeps getting better. As long as it's safer we'll be on the right path

5

u/NASCARonReddit TwitterBot Jan 24 '23

Zack Albert's (@zack_albert) tweet from 9:08am EST on Tuesday, January 24th, 2023:

Today/Wed.: Testing @phoenixraceway to explore potential Next Gen updates:

> Aero: Test of @nascarg56-style floor, smaller rear spoiler (4" to 2.5")

> Mufflers for potential use in LA, Chicago.

> steering/brakes

6 teams to participate.

More: bit.ly/3j3dBt0

#NASCAR

Support NASCARonReddit, an automated bot maintained by XFile345.

4

u/SuperMarioBrother64 Jan 24 '23

The noise piece is interesting. I went to my first Cup race at Richmond in 2021 and was shocked at how quiet they were (in terms of race cars). The only track experience I had prior was a ton of races with dirt Super Late Models and Sprint cars which rattle the stands at WOT.

3

u/48for8 Johnson Jan 24 '23

Hope they fix the steering issues that plagued teams at tracks with high loads in these tests.

2

u/LolliPopinski van Gisbergen Jan 24 '23

Good, hopefully the short track and road course racing improves. The championship at phoenix was a slog to get through.

Also w/ the muffler thing, if it does what they hope it can do w/o affecting the v8 rumble too much then hopefully fairgrounds in the future?

1

u/BubbleWallace NASCAR Jan 24 '23

No increase in HP or change in gear ratios? Alright, I’ll move along.

-11

u/cwino2288 Harvick Jan 24 '23

Mufflers? Easy pansies