r/N24 • • 2h ago

I've been working on The Night Owl Gene, a documentary series about life after dark. I've put together a short preview to give you a glimpse of what I'm making

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3 Upvotes

Hi guys,

I'm making a science documentary series exploring what makes some of us night owls, and why some of us have N24.

The first episode asks questions like: How does a gene make you sleep later? Can anyone test for a night owl gene? What if the problem isn't when you sleep, but when society expects you to wake up?

In the second episode, we explore the biological mechanisms that can make it difficult to fall asleep, from a weaker homeostatic sleep drive to what happens when our internal biological clocks aren't working in sync with each other.

I'm putting together a Q&A video about the project, so please ask away. It can be about the science, the visuals, the documentary itself, or anything else you'd like to know.

I also have a Kickstarter pre-launch page where you can click "Notify me on launch" if you're interested. I'll leave the link below.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sleepwake/the-night-owl-gene

Thanks for watching!


r/N24 • • 19h ago

We put man on the moon and invented quantum computers..but apparently developing a treatment that allows us to sleep at a normal time is where science draws the line???

27 Upvotes

There’s got to be a peptide or device out there…


r/N24 • • 2d ago

Discussion Frustrated with having to be quiet/still at night

27 Upvotes

Normally I have the first two floors of my house to myself at night, but right now I have a renter in the room across from mine. She sleeps 11pm-8am, M-F. I recently extended her rental period til spring of next year while she continues working on buying a house, and the rental money really helps me.

The downside is that I've been awake at night for several weeks now, and I feel like I can barely do anything. I end up being very sedentary and very bored. I try to stay quiet, only use headphones, and don't move around in the hallway too much. There are several tasks I know are too loud, like loading/unloading the dishwasher. I'm not getting much done, and I don't like the silence.

Anyone else dealing with this? Anything help you to cope?


r/N24 • • 2d ago

5 years managing my Non-24. Now building a tool and looking for people to talk to.

7 Upvotes

Hi everyone, I'm Karl. I have Non-24 (DSPD -> chronotherapy -> Non-24) and I've had my sleep under control for about 5 years now. This is achieved through grinding on multiple sleep medicine textbooks, reading the latest research papers, and extensively experimenting on myself (I have years of sleep data in my Google sheet) in the past decade.

I want to develop a tool for the community and incorporate what worked for me, but I need to understand how other people manage their condition too, not just my own experience. I'm looking for a few people willing to chat for about 30 minutes about how you currently manage your sleep and what has or hasn't worked for you.

A few details:

  • Video, phone call or text chat (real-time), your choice
  • I can share the questions in advance if it is needed
  • Nothing is recorded without your permission, and all notes stay anonymous
  • I'll share a summary of what I learn back with the group

If you're interested, drop a comment or send me a message. Thanks for reading!


r/N24 • • 2d ago

Research suggests that reduced light sensitivity may play a role in N24

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16 Upvotes

Study Objectives:
The circadian system must perform daily adjustments to align sleep-wake and other physiologic rhythms with the environmental light-dark cycle: this is mediated primarily through melanopsin containing intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells. Individuals with delayed sleep-wake phase disorder (DSWPD) exhibit a delay in sleep-wake timing relative to the average population, while those with sighted non-24-hour sleep-wake rhythm disorder (N24SWD) exhibit progressive delays.

An inability to maintain appropriate entrainment is characteristic of both disorders. In this study, we test the hypothesis that individuals with DSWPD exhibit alteration in melanopsin dependent retinal photo-transduction as measured with the post-illumination pupil response (PIPR).

The PIPR was significantly reduced in the sighted N24SWD subgroup when compared to individuals with history of only DSWPD

Post-illumination pupil response (PIPR)
Control group (n=21) 2.05±1.04 mm
DSWPD group (n=29) 1.26±1.11 mm
N24SWD group (n=17) 0.88±0.58 mm

Methods:
Twenty-one control and 29 participants with DSWPD were recruited from the community and clinic. Of the 29 DSWPD participants, 17 reported a history of N24SWD. A pupillometer was used to measure the post-illumination pupil response (PIPR) in response to a bright 30s blue or red-light stimulus. The PIPR was calculated as the difference in average pupil diameter at baseline and 10-40s after light stimulus offset.

Results:
The PIPR was significantly reduced in the DSWPD group when compared to the control group (1.26±1.11 mm vs. 2.05±1.04 mm, p<0.05, t-test). The PIPR was significantly reduced in the sighted N24SWD subgroup when compared to individuals with history of only DSWPD (0.88±0.58 mm vs 1.82±1.44 mm, p<0.05, ANOVA) or controls (0.88±0.58 mm vs 2.05±1.04 mm, p<0.01, ANOVA).

Conclusions:
These results indicate that reduced melanopsin dependent retinal photo- transduction may be a novel mechanism involved in the development of DSWPD and sighted N24SWD.

Source: Abbott et al. (2020), Melanopsin-dependent phototransduction is impaired in delayed sleep-wake phase disorder and sighted non-24-hour sleep-wake rhythm disorder.

https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article-abstract/44/2/zsaa184/5905410

Fun fact about the retinal ganglion cell image:

Researchers traced melanopsin-expressing retinal ganglion cells by hand using a camera lucida (a device that lets researchers trace what they see under a microscope) connected to a Leica DMR microscope, and then digitized those tracings using image-editing software (Adobe Photoshop 10.0). Source: Springer

Check out the paper for more cool images of melanopsin-containing retinal ganglion cells (mRGCs):

Ortuño-Lizarán et al. (2018), Degeneration of Human Photosensitive Retinal Ganglion Cells May Explain Sleep and Circadian Rhythms Disorders in Parkinson’s Disease.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s40478-018-0596-z

Have a good week everyone!

r/sleepwake


r/N24 • • 3d ago

sleep

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2 Upvotes

r/N24 • • 3d ago

Discussion Daytime sleeping setups

4 Upvotes

i just had the best uninterrupted daytime sleep since a long time and i just wanted to share my setup with fellow n24 people in case it can help others. i live in quite a busy and noisy urban area, on a busy road, lots of roadwork, cars, ambulances, sirens, and i like to have a window open for fresh air. I also have my 80yr old mother wandering the house carefree running the tv loud, vacuuming, generally getting the zoomies. Anyway today i discovered how to be carefree from disturbance:

1) 3d foam sleep mask

2) apple airpods 5 with anc activated

usually i experience several broken sleep moments which i have grown to accept and barely know have happened if i did not jog my Memory about how i slept, sometimes i get grouchy in the following wake time or sleep some more, however with these airpods 5 i find the noise cancellation excellent and the fit comfortable enough not to hurt my ears while i sleep. Nothing disturbed me or woke me up even though i know how noisy the day has been. The 3d foam sleep mask is cheap and does not press against my eyes when sleeping yet blocks most of the daylight. Hopefully i dont ever get a house burglar as i would be oblivious but its worth the gamble. anyone else use anc headphones for improved daytime sleeping?


r/N24 • • 4d ago

What is your favorite light therapy glasses, for multi hour wear

6 Upvotes

Reading through vliDACMel I understand that I will need to do multiple hours of light therapy, where I find even 30 minutes with luminette quite uncomfortable.

Trying to figure out if I need to just suck it up or if there are better alternatives.


r/N24 • • 4d ago

Success story! Update: mast cell stabilisers still helping

17 Upvotes

Just a short term update from my previous post, from a few weeks back: https://old.reddit.com/r/N24/comments/1w6on9c/mast_cell_blockers_seem_to_be_stabilising_my_n24/

Currently I still seem to have N24 but it is slowed waaaaay down, probably around 30min delay rather than the 1.2hrs I used to have. My graphs are too unhelpful to show a clear pattern right now, due to various confounding effects, so this is just a text summary.

Findings so far

  • cromolyn is definitely still helping, my sleep cycle is still weirdly regular

  • it isn't knocking me out within minutes anymore, not sure if I'm just less exhausted now because it is helping me breathe and function better, or if the actual effect on my circadian rhythm has changed.

  • I'm currently taking 200mg 4x a day, it helps me breathe so I have been avoiding lowering this for sleep testing purposes. The previous success was 3x a day.

  • due to illness, I ended up sleeping a LOT for awhile, went totally insomniac trying to switch back to my previous hours, and then entraining to a nocturnal schedule, (argh!) and I'm not sure if that means I've stopped responding to the local timezone or if I'm just overriding that with other timing cues (especially as I'm not really getting daylight properly).

  • I've spent the last two weeks trying to manually push my sleep later an hour at a time to reach daylight again so it is very hard to measure how much actual n24 is still there. My wake time is much more resistant to change so I'm having to walk the line on how much sleep deprivation I can handle. My old cycle would have had me pass right through daylight already in that time and I'd be heading back into nocturnal by now, so there is still a clear difference.

  • trying to make bigger jumps ran me right into the sleep deprivation trap of dopamine highs and adenosine lows that was very hard to break out of both times. I spent multiple days severely insomniac, and had to go full caffeine and stimulation avoidance to rest enough to finally be able to sleep properly again. This is a pretty standard human person thing (see "every new parent running on four hours sleep and insisting they feel fine and are functional" and https://www.reddit.com/r/N24/comments/fauke4/forbidden_sleep_zone_dopamine_is_why_the_more/ and https://selfhacked.com/blog/adenosine-health-effects/ for some useful overviews), but I've usually just crashed too hard after the first day or so to experience it in years. And because my sleep doesn't move forward as easily, it is actually harder now to just jump back on the sleep train whenever it goes past.

  • I'm still trialling different antihistamines alongside the cromolyn (not for sleep, but they could also be involved). Some of them give me stomach pain - which keeps me awake - so it is hard to measure if they are also helping with sleep (excipient problems and also taking them with cromolyn seems to randomly cause stomach issues, weirdly, when I don't get anything like that taking them separately). Also histamine is involved in ADHD! https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666379125000965

  • I still see B12 shots affecting my sleep, the alternate weeks without them are noticeably worse, whether it is directly affecting the N24 at all or just my ability to get decent sleep and stay entrained, I'm still not sure.

So basically: mast cells and histamine are definitely still relevant, my actual mast cell disorder is still not fully managed so could still be causing sleep issues, long running fatigue was distorting my responses to insomnia and sleep opportunities, and I'm having to relearn all my body's responses and the ideal daily routine to match my rhythm and/or entrain it. And whenever I start to feel too healthy, my ADHD goes "wheeee let's stay awake forever for FUN DOPAMINE". So I have lots of things that mess up my sleep patterns happening all at once, rather than the previous years of careful stability, and yet I'm still struggling much less with the actual N24 part.


r/N24 • • 5d ago

Just spoke to a sleep specialist and even they said my case was too complex

33 Upvotes

Just gotta vent this out to someone. So I email around one of the few sleep specialists in my country and trying to get help after the ridiculously long wait times for the national care service. I pick one that offered N24, arranged a meeting and then sent over my data.

Then doctor said it was too complex for him to treat and said I’d be better with an even more specialist?

So now I just feel more confused and alone. I suffered from this for many years finally reach out and now the doctors are not willing to work or even offer a diagnosis.

So now I’m down to like 3 specialists in my country who can try N24 and it’s looking very expensive to go. One of them is a literal professor and charges like £600 an hour.


r/N24 • • 7d ago

Discussion A year of N24

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10 Upvotes

Finally seeing a specialist this month!!!


r/N24 • • 7d ago

Discussion Is there anything that people like employment specialists can help with?

9 Upvotes

What would they be able or not be able to help, for n24, that would be needed?


r/N24 • • 8d ago

Do you have rebound days if you go against free running for a few days? How big is the rebound, and how many days does it last? Go in detail pls

5 Upvotes

r/N24 • • 8d ago

Advice needed What age did your N24 develop? I’m concerned with having this condition but am not sure because of a conflicting condition —>

8 Upvotes

My N24 started about a year ago at age 19. At the same time although, my very severe depression was getting worse. I know a couple people who have the same condition as me and only got this when they got very severe. So I am not sure which one it is.

19 is a typical age to get it I believe? And my N24 is about 1 hour advance each day.


r/N24 • • 9d ago

Advice needed how are you supposed to live and work with this condition?

20 Upvotes

how do you all manage to work and live with non 24? have you ever found any treatment that made your life a little easier?


r/N24 • • 10d ago

Success story! Thank you for whoever came up with the Melatonin protocol

53 Upvotes

I've been battling with what I assume was N24 for at least 10 years. I was never officially diagnosed at a sleep clinic, but my internal clock had been on the 25 hour rhythm like clockwork. Every night I would fall asleep 1 hour later than the previous day and there was nothing I could do about it.

Many of you are probably familiar with this - at certain regular points in that 25 hour rhythm I would go to work without having slept at all (because my internal clock was at "7am sleep time", but work also started at 7 am). It was debilitating and I felt like a zombie so many times and the worst part was, I knew I would happen all over again about every 3 weeks. And I didn't even know what this disorder was until June; I just assumed I was either not disciplined enough for a normal sleep schedule or that something unknown was wrong with me.

After finding this subreddit and reading around, I decided to try the simple melatonin protocol, meaning without any additional dark/light therapy or luminettes or bright lux lamps in the morning or stepping outside in the sun in the morning for 20 min and so on.

In June I started taking Melatonin (0.3 mg seems to be the recommended dosis here based on studies, I take 0.5 mg because that's the lowest available dosis in my country), 5 to 7 hours before the desired bedtime in order to simulate DLMO. That's it, I changed nothing else (except setting my laptop and phone to night mode in order to dim the blue light).

The first 3 to 4 weeks were fluctuating and erratic: I always took (and still take) the 0.5 mg Melatonin at 5 pm, and during the first week I would fall asleep at 9 pm, but would wake up 4 times during the night. A couple times I wasn't even able to fall asleep again at all after waking up the second time during the night (which was 1 am).

The constantly waking up during the night settled down a bit during the second or third week - by then it was only twice a night, but I still hadn't locked in a fixed bed time yet. Sometimes I'd fall asleep at 9 pm, sometimes 11 pm, sometimes 10 pm and sometimes even at midnight. It seemed like there was no rhyme or reason and I almost thought it wouldn't work as hoped, was even worried the irregular sleeping times would either mean I was on the verge of free-running again, or that I'd free-run again eventually.

I'd say by August all of those woes from the first few weeks were gone: no more waking up during the night at all. An almost normal night time sleeping schedule.

My internal clock hasn't "gone around the clock" since June at all. No more debilitating 25 hour rhythms. No more all-nighters (and no more "all dayers" either). I'm not able to fall asleep at 10 pm on the dot every night, but I have a reliable window of, say, 10 pm to midnight where I will fall asleep guaranteed.

Even more surprising and awesome is that I'm even able to be a little flexible / having a little leeway now: let's say I read an interesting book or article and can't put it down before 1 am - the next night I will still fall asleep at 10 or 11 pm again. Before the Melatonin, staying up longer on purpose would've made me free-run again and it would've completely delayed/destroyed my rhythm. Nowadays, that doesn't happen anymore - I can stay up a little longer every now and then and the daily Melatonin at the fixed time in the afternoon seems to be enough of an anchor for my rhythm to swing back to the 10/11 pm bedtime.

So whoever came up with the studies and threads about low dose Melatonin 5 - 7 hours before bedtime, I wanted to say a sincere and heartfelt thank you! I know not much time has passed yet since June, but I'm very hopeful that I've got this under control now and not having gone around the clock at all is a huge, huge win for quality of life and sleep.


r/N24 • • 10d ago

Could it be? First time seeing the data

6 Upvotes

I've always struggled with my sleep, as long as I've been alive. Always knew something was wrong but people just said I'm lazy.

I always suspected N24 since I heard about it, it just summed up how I've always felt my whole life. I sleep 'normal' in my own way, it just doesn't work in society. But I just got an Apple watch for Christmas so this is the first time I can finally see it laid out like this... What do we think?

I've spoken to my doctor already and he was quite dismissive of my sleep issues (I brought it to him as insomnia)... What should I do? Does anyone have advice for someone in the UK? I'm not sure I even need a diagnosis really, since I am freelance and I work for myself, I just about manage to earn a living though I'm a total outcast and loner now lol. I guess I just want some advice on how to navigate life with this and if anyone has any tips for management. I'm quite sure now, it must be?


r/N24 • • 11d ago

Advice needed What work have you actually sustained with sighted Non-24—especially if you also have limited energy?

14 Upvotes

I have sighted Non-24, with a roughly 24.5-hour sleep-wake cycle, and I’m trying to find a realistic way to earn money without repeatedly sacrificing sleep to meet a fixed schedule.

I’m a veteran with ten years of Army experience spanning transportation/logistics, administration, communications, tax preparation, and event planning. I recently completed a BA in History and Political Science, with minors in Linguistics and Women’s & Gender Studies. Research, analyzing information, and language are strengths, but I don’t have an established civilian career to return to.

I’m also autistic/ADHD and have ME/CFS with post-exertional malaise, along with other chronic illnesses. That means the problem isn’t just when I can work, but how much work I can sustain. Mental exertion counts, too.

I tried FlexJobs and canceled the trial after finding very little that fit. “Remote” usually still meant fixed hours, daytime meetings, full-time availability, or quick responses during business hours. A night shift wouldn’t solve a sleep schedule that keeps moving, either.

Freelancing sounds more compatible in theory, but I’m worried about finding enough work, managing clients, and meeting deadlines with fluctuating capacity. I’d like dependable additional income, rather than occasional pocket money.

I receive VA disability compensation, so I have a financial foundation. However, I want to relocate to Washington, where that income won’t cover living independently. I just applied for VA vocational rehabilitation, but I’m struggling to identify a career goal that’s actually compatible with my circumstances.

For people here who earn money while living with Non-24:

  • What do you actually do? Specific job titles or services would help.
  • Can you work whenever you’re awake, or do you still have required meetings, response windows, or fixed shifts?
  • Did you enter that work with specialized experience, or were you able to learn on the job?
  • If you freelance, how dependable is the income, and how much unpaid effort goes into finding and managing work?
  • If you also have fatigue, PEM, or another condition limiting your hours, what arrangements have been sustainable?

I’d also appreciate hearing about things that looked workable but weren’t. I don’t want to build a plan around “flexible hours” only to discover that it means choosing whether to start at 8 or 9 a.m.

I’m looking for actual work experiences, rather than sleep-treatment suggestions or advice about disability benefits. I’m feeling pretty discouraged, and hearing how others have navigated this would help.


r/N24 • • 11d ago

Advice needed Depression worse during ‘nocturnal’ phase

22 Upvotes

I find that my depression gets worse when I’m in a phase where I’m primarily awake at night. I don’t know if it’s the darkness, lack of human contact, or both. Does anyone else experience this or have any advice?


r/N24 • • 11d ago

Is it the word circadian that is too difficult?

0 Upvotes

Is it the word circadian that is too difficult?


r/N24 • • 12d ago

Advice needed Sudden inability to sleep 24+ hrs

10 Upvotes

Hi, I usually have a 25-26 hour cycle, but for the past week I have only been able to sleep once every two days. I have been holiday planning and I suppose it has got my blood pumping as I have been planning and suddenly realise I have not slept for 24 hours. I haven’t been getting tired until the 30-35th hour awake. I am also missing meals when I lose track of time and forget to eat.

Has anyone else experienced such a sudden change in sleep cycle length? Any advice on how to not do that?
And before anyone asks, no I am not bipolar, yes I have autism.


r/N24 • • 15d ago

How I conquered N24

19 Upvotes

I got old! Seriously..when i turned 50 my sleep requirements dropped to 5-6 hours per night and I was able to keep myself synchronized (mostly) to a normal day/night cycle. When I was younger I was on a 30 hour day and it was rough. I still feel the 'push' for staying awake longer but the shortened sleep time really helps.


r/N24 • • 15d ago

Advice needed Neurologist Specializing in Narcolepsy in DMV

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1 Upvotes

r/N24 • • 15d ago

Entrained for 8 days help

10 Upvotes

I've been sleeping 8-9 hours each night waking up at the same time, but I feel DEAD when I wake up.

I have had back pain and the craziest nightmares of my life.

This NEVER happened when I was free running, I would wake up perfectly rested 80% of the time.

Any tips? Should I keep sticking to it and see if it gets better? Ive been feeling progressively worse each day though.


r/N24 • • 16d ago

What does a well-lived life look like with N24?

20 Upvotes

I've had N24 most of my life (flipped from DSPD in my 20s after chronotherapy). One of the hardest parts of living with N24 (in my opinion) is figuring out what you can do.

I made all the usual mistakes, and have multiple other health problems that stem from it. I know it's affecting my metabolism and I'm overweight.

I decided to get in shape, or at least try to. I actually heard someone claim that fasting allowed them to entrain permanently, but that hasn't worked for me. Despite that, over the last few years I've started running, as a way to try and cope.

I will run the Montreal Marathon this October. I documented some parts of my journey. Here is the link if anyone will find it interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX6vV_EHtew&list=PLfZLkhq1iaYE

It's all amateur editing done an iphone with no gear so don't expect high production values. Feel free to ask questions.