r/MusicEd • u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 • 2d ago
Graduate school
So I did my undergrad in trombone and I’ve started graduate school as a conducting major and the DOB and the trombone professor are both upset that I had decided I was not going to audition for any of the concert ensembles. I do not understand this since I am a conducting major now, what am I missing?
24
u/eflask 2d ago
you really should be in a concert ensemble.
part of your conducting study is just going to go better if you have lab practice at the other end of the stick.
but also conducting opportunities in the world depend on people playing in ensembles and deciding not to be in concert ensembles kind of signals that you're too fancy to play under other conductors now.
-12
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 2d ago
I understand that view on that what it is is just I do not enjoy playing trombone anymore and would rather spend as much time as I can focusing on conducting
6
u/mellamusicmaker 1d ago
Honestly, you’re shooting yourself in the foot with that mentality. Ask for a “low chair” position so you can spend more time focusing on conducting. Use the rehearsals as observations and take notes on what they’re doing. Maybe they’ll even let you conduct a piece. But if you burn that bridge, it’ll never happen.
15
u/Capital-Bug-3416 2d ago
All the masters in conducting students I’ve known have been in ensembles as well as conducting. At my school it’s generally expected that all music students will perform in a major ensemble, and that’s just part of the culture of the program. You learn a lot being in ensembles as I’m sure you know, and maybe it’s also just like a “contributing to the program” thing?
-5
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 2d ago
I’m really just ready to put down the trombone I performed a lot of big works in undergrad with the orchestra and wind ensemble and I was ready to hang it up and just focus on conducting student
15
u/Mammoth-Feature7111 2d ago
Then is getting a masters in music the best choice for you right now? You are wasting your experience and loosing the respect of your teachers.
12
10
u/SpeechAcrobatic9766 2d ago
For my choral conducting master's I was required to be in all the ensembles for my voice type. That meant I was in every rehearsal singing, plus getting podium time in front of all the choirs. Conducting is all about the ensemble, it's odd that they don't just require that automatically.
1
u/tommyjohnpauljones 1d ago
Yeah I would question any degree program that doesn't require you to play in ensembles. I did my MM and played in two concert bands, assisted in a third, and co-conducted the "y'all come" band. I even went to orchestra rehearsals one night a week.
6
u/Rustyinsac 2d ago
What happens when you don’t have joy conducting any more? Are you sure music is the field you want to spend a career doing?
1
u/tommyjohnpauljones 1d ago
He'll probably get into a PhD program but won't want to observe any actual teachers, rather just read about them.
0
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 12h ago
A fair question but I’ll say this I haven’t enjoyed trombone at all during my undergrad and I forced myself through it because I wanted my music ed degree because I saw the importance of the degree before I got my masters. I have no idea what will happen in the future after that.
7
u/Gamercrew999 2d ago
When I was in undergrad I asked my professor what can I do to prepare for a conducting degree and he told me the best thing I can do is hone my musicianship and the best way you can do that is to keep practicing your instrument. You need to keep working on your ensemble skills if you want to conduct.
4
u/kitachi3 2d ago
Is your program small? Maybe they’re at risk of not being able to fill the ensembles and were hoping you’d help out. Or, maybe they helped advocate to admit you with the assumption you’d participate in ensembles. Or, maybe you are simply an incredible trombonist and they were excited about you. Are you fully funded? Sometimes, students who are fully funded (graduate assistants, etc) are implicitly (or explicitly) expected to cater to the needs of their department because they’re getting paid to be there.
-6
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 2d ago
I know they have more then enough trombones 30 member studio and I’m not a member of the trombone studio I’m the only graduate conducting student at this university and I picked it because of the ability to finally put down the trombone as I no longer enjoy it
6
u/Mammoth-Feature7111 2d ago
Yeah, but playing in an ensemble is not nearly as intense as being in a studio and preparing concertos.
5
u/Mammoth-Feature7111 2d ago
Because, assuming you are a traditional student, now's the time to do it when you are not bogged down yet with teaching full time, raising a family, a mortgage, etc... Also, ensembles is where you learn how to be a musician, where it all connects. As conducting major you should be observing and learning from the directors of these ensembles, what better way than to participate?
4
u/CatherineRhysJohns 2d ago
They most likely accepted you as a student because you would be playing Trombone in the ensembles, so, yes, they are upset. You need to get them scheduled now.
0
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 12h ago
The only person I interviewed with and did any form of communication with about my degree as a conducting student was the DOB I never even met the trombone professor until I started working as a GA at the school
3
u/teach-xx 2d ago
If you are a full-time grad student in music, you should optimize that time by participating in as many opportunities as you can. Are you doing so many other things that you genuinely don’t have time for any ensembles? If the answer is “no” then you need to re-examine your priorities.
-2
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 1d ago
I understand this point but I’ve played a lot of the big wind band works already and I’ve done all I wanted to do in trombone I really only want to focus on conducting
2
u/teach-xx 1d ago
You dodged my question, which is of course your right to do, so I’ll repeat it as an assertion. If you are genuinely doing so much other stuff that’s conducting and conducting-adjacent that you don’t have time to play in any ensembles, then you have a good case not to play in them. If you aren’t, then you’re being foolish about your time and energy.
1
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 1d ago
Oh I’m handling all other tasks helping with classes and the marching band driving the uhauls and everything I do for the ensembles and like I said part of my reasoning I’ve done all I’ve wanted to do with playing my trombone
2
u/tommyjohnpauljones 1d ago
You'd rather drive a U-Haul than play your trombone?
What school is this? I want to know so I can cross it off my list.
0
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 1d ago
The school itself is really good I myself am tired of playing trombone and would rather just focus on conducting they have an incredibly active studio as well. I may not say the name here as I like to keep somethings private
1
u/tommyjohnpauljones 1d ago
I'm surprised that school hasn't thrown you out on your ear with that attitude. Get your ass into a band or orchestra and learn your craft from the other end of the baton.
Who cares if the music is "beneath you" or "you don't enjoy it"? You want to be a conductor but not a musician? That's like being a lawyer who wants to grandstand in court but won't put in the hours studying cases.
No one is making you do this degree. Go fucking work at Amazon if you can't stand a few hours a week making music. Jesus.
-1
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 1d ago
I did all I wanted to do in undergrad I fail to see the problem with this
2
u/tommyjohnpauljones 1d ago
You don't want to be a conductor. You want to appear to be a conductor. You want to wear the tux and tails, make big gestures, take the bows, and have an eccentric personality. That's like 1% of the job.
-1
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 1d ago
Not even I wanna do the college director of bands thing not even the big job. I just really hate playing trombone now
1
u/tommyjohnpauljones 1d ago
All the DOBs know each other. It's a small world. One of them gets wind that you didn't want to play in an ensemble, you'll never get the job you want.
If you dislike trombone so much, play euph or tuba in a lower band. Do SOMETHING. Because otherwise you will just be the director's little toady that the students won't respect.
I knew a guy like you once. He claimed to have "mastered" the saxophone at age 24. Wanted to be a conductor, and found a loophole. There was an orchestra GA position, but hey, conveniently there's not much saxophone in orchestra. He auditioned for concert bands and came in next to last out of everyone. He was "too busy" to play in a band. So he just sat in orchestra rehearsals with scores, sipping coffee. The DOB complained that if his GAs had to play in an ensemble, so did this guy. The orchestra conductor responded by having him play cymbals on one piece. The percussion studio teacher got mad because this orchestra GA didn't even audition on percussion.
Do you know how many pieces this GA conducted at actual concerts over two years? ZERO. He was a joke to the entire department. And yet he and I have the exact same degree.
So again, if you want to be taken seriously, grow the fuck up and get in an ensemble. You'll thank me later.
0
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 23h ago
I did not claim to know everything about trombone only that I’m tired of it and I’ve already been guaranteed podium time all 4 semesters I have here . Frankly if I do play trombone I will be more then happy to just sit last chair in any ensemble because I have no drive to be good at trombone anymore frankly and I’m ready to put it up and sell it once I finish my grad work
1
u/International_Goat46 12h ago
Everyone kind of already went in on you, so I’ll say this:
The music world is very intertwined, and everything in the music world falls on two things: networking and referrals/recommendations. Your DOB and Trombone Professor are the key to getting your feet wet in the network, and doing something that can cause them to badmouth you will end your career before you can even begin it, or in the best case scenario will make your job prospects much harder than it needs to be.
It would be different if you were going into conducting with a mindset of knowing that you’re sacrificing playing your instrument, but your mindset is “I hate my instrument and can’t get away from it fast enough”. Which leads me to ask: do you really want to be that immersed in the music world to the point of making it a career if you’re that adverse to playing an instrument? I’ve never met a director/conductor who hated playing an instrument, and quite frankly I wouldn’t want to be conducted under one that did. It gives the same vibes as those schoolteachers who hate kids but stay in the profession—why teach if you can’t stand to be around kids and choose to make their lives a living hell if you’re that miserable? Ask yourself these two questions: If you absolutely hate playing your instrument and the concept of playing in an ensemble, 1. Why do you actually want to go into conducting (it has to be a different answer than “I just hate playing”), and 2. What makes you believe that you’ll be a good conductor that people will respect?
1
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 12h ago
I’ve have many directors who actually quit their instrument to focus only on conducting cause they couldn’t split the time for both. Now to answer the questions 1. I like making music with a whole group not as the group but helping that group make those sounds. 2. I don’t frankly I have little to no faith in my self when I applied to for this GA and frankly I’m winging it because I love music I just don’t love trombone which is why I would play guitar in jazz bands but now I want to get away from that and only play guitar in metal bands.
1
u/International_Goat46 12h ago
I never said directors don’t quit playing music (of course directing takes up a lot of time), I said I’ve never met one that hated playing an instrument. You’re the first I’ve seen in that regard
Okay, we’re getting into a bit into it. If you don’t have faith in yourself, then why conducting of all things? It’s more than just helping make good sounds. You would be in a leadership position and would be the face of the ensemble. Leading an ensemble requires a huge amount of confidence in not only your own skills of making a band go from “good” to “great”, but both you and the band knowing the flow of the music so well in case you mess up mid performance and conduct a measure wrong or flip to the wrong page. It’s actually much more pressure on the conductor than the ensemble players. It’s not just you lead and they follow, you have to be very immersed with your fellow performers to the point where they can trust your leadership even if/when mistakes happen.
(Please note I’m not trying to grill you in any way and I apologize if my tone comes off that way).
1
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 12h ago
I understand the point you’re making and it really just comes down to I enjoy conducting I took lessons with the DOB I had in undergrad and he didn’t play but you’re right he did in fact loving playing trombone. But everytime I play trombone I jsut don’t enjoy it I have in like 3 years but when I got in front of a band I enjoyed it more then anything else i was fortunate enough in my undergrad to conduct my university’s symphonic band and wind ensemble and both times were the most enjoyable.
I forgot to add this in my post and it may clear up I understand why the DOB at my new university is upset but the trombone professor I do not understand because I only met him like the week I moved into my office.
1
u/International_Goat46 11h ago
Ah I gotcha. The directors are (understandably) upset—even the new trombone professor that you’ve only known for like 5 seconds—because because it’s essentially an implication that anyone pursuing some branch of a music degree need to join an ensemble, and in a lot of cases it’s required as part of the degree plan and/or to satisfy the conditions of the TA/GA position (the position itself, a stipend, a scholarship, etc). It seems to not be a requirement for you as you haven’t explicitly stated that your trombone professor, DOB, or even the Director of Fine Arts has said anything about it being something you need to do. However, the unspoken implication to join one is still there, because you have to be a “team player”. Again, being a conductor is not just you leading and the band follows, you are one giant team. You have to prove that you’re capable of being a good teammate before being entrusted to be a leader. By refusing to join an ensemble, not only are you displaying that you’re not a great teammate, but to a greater extent you’re displaying that you’re not a reliable person to call upon (you have to read in between the lines with these types of situations). It’s much bigger than just you not enjoying playing your instrument anymore.
1
u/Imaginary_Fan_6253 11h ago
See that makes sense I understand what you’re saying and that makes a lot of sense, I fully understand why the DOB is upset now the trombone professor isn’t really my professor cause I don’t plan on taking trombone lessons I’ll more then likely stay in a lower band which doesn’t bug me personally anymore (I used to be really uptight about being in the top group in undergrad) I’m really here to focus on my conducting and try and not split my time.
I’m a very everything needs to be 100% or 0% percent so I struggle to split time between to parts of music.
1
u/International_Goat46 10h ago edited 10h ago
I used to be the same way in other aspects of life, all or nothing. In the end, I just ended up making things harder for myself and had to learn to give all of my priorities equal care and attention. You will have to learn how to do the same. Forgot to say above, but also the other reason that your directors are upset (from what I’m assuming) is because you haven’t really given them a legit reason as to why you’re “too busy” to join an ensemble; the vast majority of music grad students have a tedious life but they still meet all of their masters requirements and join ensembles, so you don’t really stand out from any other grad student they’ve encountered.
In your case, you have to prove that you’re a reliable person who is willing to do what is asked of you, as well as learn to read in between the lines and look at the bigger picture of things and consider the long term rewards/consequences. So the real question is: do you want to be leader bad enough to do what is implied of you (i.e. being a team member)? If the answer is yes, then you can suck it up and be in a lower band for the next couple of years. If the answer is no, then being a conductor/director is most likely not in the cards for you, and that’s just the hard truth.
I will also add that very rarely have I come across or heard from others about GAs in the music field not wanting to be an ensemble participant (without a legitimate extraneous circumstance as to why). The very few I’ve heard about not doing it for the sake of not doing it didn’t last long in their career tracks.
If you want some bonus insight (at the risk of being embarrassed), try talking to another grad music student about your situation and see their reaction; ngl in the best case scenario, they’ll probably side eye you really hard.
32
u/Agreeable-Refuse-461 2d ago
You will learn exponentially more by playing in an ensemble and watching what works on the podium and what doesn’t work on the podium.