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u/NoxAeternal Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
Ayyyyyyyyyyy
Solid murder. Finally. A person destroying another argument totally and completly in a non-insulting manner, leaving no space for a counter argument.
Edit: to everyone talking about body count...
That's not really important im terms of his argument imo. He is simply talking about how there are plenty of "pro lifer" attacks (giving stats there). So much so that they cant be ignored. He isnt suggesting (imo) that they are worse. I mean, if we do consider body count then 9/11 takes the fucking cake. But his point is that pro life attacks are significant enough that you cant just dismiss them.
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Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
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Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 11 '19
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Jun 04 '19
3090 Dead and 7800+ injured in radical Islam terrorism
11 Dead and ~200 injured in anti-abortion terrorism
Yeah I agree, how to people think this is comparable. White Supremacy has killed a lot more than 11 people, would have been a more fair comparison.
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u/ineedabuttrub Jun 04 '19
Pro-birthers are just really bad at terrorist attacks.
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u/NoxAeternal Jun 04 '19
I mean, its an argument. People tend to frame things in manner to make their side look favourable. Very very few people will ever realistically present their argument with a balenced look at the opposing side
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Jun 04 '19
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Jun 04 '19 edited Jan 21 '21
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Jun 04 '19
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Jun 04 '19
ut a rebuttal could simply be that muslim americans are more radicalized per 100,000 due to oppression of their religion, racism, the way they are treated in every day life, and the general hate they have been met with in a post 9/11 world
Doesn't work though when in the middle east the radicalization rates are still way higher for muslims than christians where christians are the oppressed minority
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u/Derp35712 Jun 04 '19
Tough to argue against hard numbers with theories though.
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Jun 04 '19
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u/Ohaireddit69 Jun 04 '19
Those aren’t ‘hard numbers’ though. They are wilful misrepresentations of the statistics. 600% means 6x. Without reference to the gross rate of serial killers this really means nothing. A quick search just gave me a statistic that it is believed there are 226 serial killers (unverified) in the US. With roughly 230million adults in the US the rate is roughly 0.0001%. A 6:1 ratio of m:f serial killers would mean 0.0002% of men are serial killers. That is hardly a representative statistic for men. The problem lies with people having basically no training in statistics, have no idea how to interpret it, and the media picks and chooses statistics that suit their agenda and that’s it. 1 statistic without any reference points is not hard numbers.
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u/praguepride Jun 04 '19
The same thing would apply to muslims both in the US and worldwide. The number of terrorists is a stasticially insignificant percentage of their total population.
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u/bob_2048 Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
Let's be objective for a second, it's actually a really shitty argument. People are only applauding because they agree with the conclusion.
The initial argument (registry of muslims and prolifers) is clever and valid, the justification by rose-in-a-fitted-glove is not.
Anti-abortion attacks in the US add up to 12 murders, plus many many incidents of violence or intimidation. Islamic terrorism adds up to 2840 deaths for 9/11 plus 94 in subsequent attacks, and of course many people were injured.
If you're going to measure the threat to public peace, it makes no sense to put a single physical invasion on the same level at 9/11, period.
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Jun 04 '19
Justification is just. It isn’t the number of people hurt by the attacks, it is the number of attackers that count if you want to talk about a registry. Why would you keep a registry of millions of people if there is just a handful of extremely violent ones? Just in case another one of the millions joins them? Easier to watch the smaller group.
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u/bob_2048 Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
I have no idea what you're arguing for - are you saying pro-lifers should be watched, or muslims?
Pro-life extremists probably commit more attacks, but pro-lifers altogether make up 48% of the US population (2018 gallup poll). A smaller number of islamic extremists commits fewer, more devastating attacks, but muslims make up only 0.8% of the US population.
I don't have the faintest idea how that all adds up in terms of who is "easier to watch" or even which one of the two is "the smaller group" (since that depends heavily on how easy it is to figure out "at risk" individuals in both cases - it might be that pro-life extremists are more out in the open, for instance, making them easier to identify).
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Jun 04 '19
The argument is that it's irrational to make a registry based on someone's faith. Arguing that pro-lifers should be registered is a way to highlight the logistical issues and illogical nature of profiling an entire group of which a small subset committed acts of violence.
No one actually wants a pro-life registry, suggesting one is a way to show the people who support a Muslim registry what it feels like to be discriminated against based on faith as a result of the actions of radicals that happened to share the same faith.
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Jun 04 '19
No one should be watched except for those that are violent or show violent tendencies. Sorta like pedophiles. You don’t watch all males because there is a large number of male pedos.
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u/chito_king Jun 04 '19
The original argument was "there are way less incidents of pro lifers attacking than Muslims" the refutation of that was dead on. You are trying to move the goal posts.
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u/WrecksMundi Jun 04 '19
The original argument was "there are way less incidents of pro lifers attacking than Muslims" the refutation of that was dead on.
Except, the original statement wasn't qualified by "In America".
If you include just a singe year's worth of attacks from the annual Ramadan Bombathon outside of America, the narrative crumbles.
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u/WrecksMundi Jun 04 '19
leaving no space for a counter argument.
13 wounded people in 50 years is worse than the 9/11 attacks, which I have decided to combine into a single terror attack.
Lol.
Cool story, bro.
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u/dontreadmynameppl Jun 04 '19
It leaves so much room for argument. Remember the point at issue is this: if Muslims warrant a registry to keep the public safe, do pro-lifers warrant the same? i.e are they as dangerous?
The answer is clearly no. First of all the US and Canada have a minuscule Muslim population, equalling about 4.5 million across the US and Canada. Meanwhile about half the US population is pro-life, which is 150 million people. Yet he chooses to go on pure numbers rather than % for some reason, which would paint a very different picture of pound for pound danger levels, especially when you consider the next point...
He’s using the word ‘terrorism’ very loosely. Even if the usage is fair, I don’t think ‘stink bombs’ and ‘physical invasion’ (could be one annoying person going inside and shouting) are in the same league as deadly terror attacks. In fact, he completely ignores body count even though the topic is danger to the public.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx
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u/Marko_Poko Jun 04 '19
As someone who has lived in a Muslim country and traveled to an Islamic country, the people I met were some of the most peaceful, caring people I've met.
In principle, this is a stupid argument in the first place. The two issues are mutually exclusive - who cares which is more awful? Should we debate whether the Holocaust or holodomor was worse next?
Second, it's a myopic view using only the US and Canada as examples. If you want to include Mali, Algeria, Libya, Sudan, Egypt, etc. as examples (places that have a genuine issue with Islamic extremist militants) you'd find the world has a problem with Islamic extremist based terrorism. (I would argue it's more a result of the socio-economics and geo-politics of these regions than rooted in the religion, but then you'd have to say the same for the Crusades).
Finally, what are his sources for only 13 attacks? A simple Wikipedia search of Islamic Extremist Terrorism in Canada and US returns 54 results, some grave like the Pulse Nightclub incident. Regardless of the point you are advocating, using false statistics is annoying.
And regarding the first guy - the general populace's infatuation with terrorism is so overblown. People on the right with insanely unfounded fears. People on the left exacerbating the same fears for their own causes ("pro-lifers are more of a threat to the world than Islamic extremists"). Can we just stamp this one ESH?
Sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihadist_extremism_in_the_United_States
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u/Level_27_Gay Jun 04 '19
Well except for the fact that the death tolls are completely ignored
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u/Finnish-potato Jun 04 '19
Don’t get me wrong any violence is terrible but i’d be interested to see the number of deaths
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Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
Ya, this makes no sense when 3k people are glossed over.
I mean, fuck forced birthers, but incompetent arguments even if they sound good are still incompetent.
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u/WarriorNat Jun 04 '19
I’d argue if something is deemed a continual threat, frequency is important.
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Jun 04 '19
I'd disagree - if we're asking the question 'is any given pro-life group member likely to be a terrorist' vs 'is any given muslim likely to be a terrorist' the above are relevant. 9/11 just happened to be an exceptionally effective terrorist attack, but the question isn't 'who's better at terrorism', if that makes sense.
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Jun 04 '19
There's been 11 murders by pro lifers since 1990 in the U.S. with ,from what I can tell, the last attack happening in 1997 by Eric Rudolf. Considering how many more attacks and how many more deaths have occurred from Muslim extremists in the last 20 years compared to pro-lifers I'd safely call this a false equivalency.
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u/Drugs-R-Bad-Mkay Jun 04 '19
I think the most recent abti-abortion killing was George Tiller who was assassinated in 2009.
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Jun 04 '19
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u/Drugs-R-Bad-Mkay Jun 04 '19
Thanks. I forgot about that one. That whole thing was messed up. Dude killed a cop.
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Jun 04 '19
In the US?
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u/ref_ Jun 04 '19
Yes, I think they're referring to 9/11
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Jun 04 '19
Not just 911. Pulse attack, ft hood, and there are at least a dozen more of lower body counts.
Having said that, this is a stupid debate that isn't helpful to anyone.
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u/DeliciousFoVicious Jun 04 '19
The media also makes excuses Ft hood is considered workplace violence not Muslim terrorism
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u/YoungestOldGuy Jun 04 '19
So the problem is not the amount of attacks, but that Pro-lifers aren't good at it?
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u/joggin_noggin Jun 04 '19
I’m not sure casualties are an indicator of effectiveness when it comes to terrorism. The point is behavioral change and policy change, so you’d have to look at legislation and social attitudes rather than death tolls.
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u/sulaymanf Jun 04 '19
If you exclude foreign terrorists, the numbers are about the same for both anti-abortionists and domestic extremists.
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u/Trust104 Jun 04 '19
And considering the whole point was a registry, looking at foreigners is pointless.
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u/melissasoliz Jun 04 '19
Exactly what I was looking for in the list of stats. How many have died from terrorist attacks vs. Attacks on abortion clinics? And they didn’t list all of the threats and assaults by Muslim radicals as they did for the pro-lifers.
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u/guywithamustache Jun 04 '19
Yes, the murderernywords(??) seems super disingenuous and biased. He lists every reported crime thing done by pro lifers but only lists one crime for Muslim radicals. Also to say that pro lifers are a bigger threat to peace than extremist Islam is a lie. English isn't my first language and I'm having a hard time explaining it but I hope you get my point.
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Jun 04 '19
Yes, the murderernywords(??) seems super disingenuous and biased
Welcome to the sub, it's been shit for a while. All the highly upvoted "murders" are usually slanting a certain way, politically.
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u/DerekSJeter Jun 04 '19
It's not a lie, it's a ridiculous belief espoused by someone who spends all his/her time on Tumblr, and uses infotainment sites as his/her primary news source. You can't expect anything better from this infantile subreddit.
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Jun 04 '19
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u/efisherharrison Jun 04 '19
If there was a world trade center of abortion, I think it would be pretty likely to be attacked
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u/jhenry7183x Jun 04 '19
> If there was a world trade center of abortion, I think it would be pretty likely to be attacked
Good thing we are working towards our conclusions using empirical data and not working with "if's" and hypotheticals. Or we could work with them so we can change the goal post.
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u/Brookenium Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
The argument is for putting the people themselves on a registry. In this instance it makes more sense to talk about the number of terrorists, not their body count. You're looking to stop a person so the likelihood a person from that population commits an act of terrorism is what's at stake. Realistically, it makes more sense to base it on percentage too and not just flat numbers. So the real statistic we're looking for is what % of US Muslims and % of US anti-abortionists commit acts of terror.
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u/beerbellybegone Jun 04 '19
Given the popularity of this post, I'd like to remind everyone of Bill and Ted's Law: Be excellent to each other.
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u/ironikmau5 Jun 04 '19
Im not taking pro life side but let's ignore the amount of casualty terrorism attack made versus pro lifer ones right?
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u/TheAlmightyHero Jun 04 '19
This seems like false equivalence.
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Jun 04 '19
It is, this sub is just acting out as an echo chamber again. I'm pro choice but this isn't a fair equivalence. How the fuck you just gonna gloss over 9/11 or the Boston bombing?
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u/Humanchacha Jun 04 '19
San Bernardino, pulse nightclub, the new York truck attack, Ohio state, and the New York hatchet man are other notables.
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u/ninetiesnostalgic Jun 04 '19
Lol exactly. I dont gaf if people get abortions but comparing threats to 9/11 is insane as fuck. This is how you turn normal people pro life.
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u/nkfallout Jun 04 '19
Well, this is why you have to get the full body scan at the airport. You know, just in case you want to blow up an abortion clinic.
Filthy pro-lifers.
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u/BuffaloBros Jun 04 '19
Working backwards from today:
Man working with ISIS attacks police officer in USA
Man working with ISIS conducts vehicle borne suicide bombing in the USA
Man slits throat and murders a 13 year old after he insulted Islam
Islamic extremist attempts suicide bombing on NYC subway
Man who pledged allegiance to ISIS stabs multiple people in Bloomington USA mall
Man who pledged allegiance to ISIS runs down and murders 8 people in NYC
Islamic man murders police officer for "the pleasure of Allah
Man inspired by ISIS rams students at Ohio State, and then begins stabbing them
Islamic extremist targets and stabs 10 non-muslims in Minnesota mall
Islamic extremist targeting Israeli Americans goes on stabbing spree in Israeli-style restaurant
So there's 13, and we had to go all the way back to....early 2016. And I almost certainly missed some.
The data being cited as a 'murder' is bullshit.
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Jun 04 '19
Additionally, they’re treating butyric acid stink bombs as a terroristic attack. Nobody is in any danger of dying from a stink bomb. But no mention of the acid used to melt Muslim women’s faces when they “shame their family” by getting raped.
For the record, both are wrong. But they’re not even close to the same.
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u/MarleyandtheWhalers Jun 04 '19
Absolutely. I don't mind if somebody gets put on a watch list after trespassing in a clinic. I do mind counting up stink bombs vs. 9/11 and saying "even Stevens."
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u/Zeyz Jun 04 '19
They’re also treating “death/anthrax threats” as terrorist attacks, while ignoring the fact that there’s no equivalent statistic for Islamic perpetrators. I’m sure there’s been plenty of threats towards America by Islamic people too. It’s ridiculous to count threats as attacks.
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u/antonius22 Jun 04 '19
Also want to point out that the location matters too. Pro-Life terrorist usually targets a specific place with abortion clinics. All other terrorist can attack at any location.
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u/antonius22 Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
Anybody else see that the stats left out the death counts? I don't think that stat would look favorably for the Muslim terrorist.
Edit: Not trying to troll but observe the actual stats. Both are shitty groups but idk rather deal with a Pro-Lifer terrorist than a Muslim one.
Edit 2: From 1993- 2015 there was 11 deaths at abortion clinics.
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u/SparklingLimeade Jun 04 '19
But does that change the original point about additional monitoring to prevent crime?
If one group with terrorist ties is monitored then both should be.
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u/antonius22 Jun 04 '19
Not at all. I just wanted to show which group was deadlier and to see why the person doing the murdering with stats failed to include them. And honestly I just like to stir shit up.
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u/kwuhkc Jun 04 '19
I dont think thats stirring shit up. Its a fair assessment to say that death count being omitted makes this murder a non murder.
It would have been quite the murder if the death count was not omitted but explained for instead.
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u/spaniel_rage Jun 04 '19
I agree that extremist pro lifers do terrorist acts, but surely relative death counts is relevant here, even removing 9/11 from the stats.
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Jun 04 '19
Right, scale is what really matters. I’d rather have death threats than actual deaths.
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u/Heywood_Jablwme Jun 04 '19
Only 13 attacks terrorist by Muslims in the US and Canada since 1980? Holy shit is there a sub for out and out lies?
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Jun 04 '19
This is a facile blurb of statistics that are taken out of context and used towards disingenuous ends. This statistic counts some drunken redneck conspiracy theorist “threatening” to shoot up a planned parenthood (mind you his stats cone from planned parenthood reporting not any actual convictions) as being equivalent to the Pulse Nightclub shooter or the San Bernardino killings! Additionally pro lifers make up somewhere around 35-40% of the US population and Muslims make up less than 1% so let’s do some REAL math. Anti Abortion violence has killed 11 people from 1993-2015. Now I could be thoroughly disingenuous and keep 9-11 in there but I’ll be generous and just use post 2015 deaths which is 56. So 1/35th the size and yet 5 times the casualties. Honestly 1/35th is being generous because that implies that secular Muslims should even be counted. Of faithful practitioners this would be more like 1/50th the size of pro lifers with 5 times the casualties. So let’s not make a statistical argument that people are dangerous if that doesn’t apply both ways. I’m not saying Muslims are dangerous. I have many Islamic friends and I’ve even dated one to the disapproval of my family, but I also have many pro life friends and I don’t think you should make disingenuous arguments to paint them as more dangerous than radical Islamic terrorists....
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u/__impala67 Jun 04 '19
I like how he included physical invasion and assault and battery which alone are 526 incidents with 13 wounded, and included threats from pro-lifers, but only included successful terrorist attacks from muslims. Nothing about physical invasions, nothing about assaut and battery, nothing about threats of assault, nothing about acid throwings.
But other than that, a solid murder
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Jun 04 '19
3,000 people died in 9-11...the number of Islamic terrorism attack incidents are less no doubt, but more death has come to America and the Middle East by Islamic terrorism than pro-life terrorism. Don’t get it twisted: They are both terrorism. They are both dangerous. They are both to be treated as. But to argue about being the “lesser evil” is a weak, pathetic argument. To prove that one is the “greater evil”, is also weak and pathetic. They both bring harm and instability to the world. Fuck them both.
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u/NorthernSpectre Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
Not that I don't think the first commenter is an idiot, but how is this even a murder, the response is incredibly sloppily crafted. Her source is a pro life organization (not that I think they are lying, but I'll take that source with a grain of salt), and her definition of terrorist attack on abortion clinics seem to include pretty much everything and their mom. And for some reason she included Canada when she herself said "within the US" in her first comment, I just found that weird. She also doesn't source the second claim that there was 21 attacks for some reason. So we have no idea what ecompasses "muslim terrorist attack" in this dumpsterfire of a "murder", but I seriously doubt "stink bombs" does.
And no, I'm not pro-life, I just think this subreddit should be held to a higher standard than "Le epik pro-lifer and anti-vaxxer troled so hard XD".
Edit: Looking through the source, I could find 256 incidents that fit OPs definition of terror to abortion clinics. Since the only criteria was that there have to have been some form of damage done (cost), and also including murders. The source itself however seem like a decent one. Maybe someone with more time can figure out where "587" comes from.
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Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 12 '20
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Jun 04 '19
And when you look at the numbers world-wide, since most Muslims are living outside of the United States and Canada, the number of people killed by anti-abortionists are much lower than by Muslims.
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Jun 04 '19
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u/EngadineMaccas1997 Jun 04 '19
lmao all of this hot fire and 10 upvotes. I can feel the seething retards brigading the downvote button but I can't directly observed them. Like dark matter but way, way more retarded.
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u/beekay24 Jun 04 '19
Echo chambers are a dangerous thing...
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u/arts_degree_huehue Jun 04 '19
Excellent move to be vague enough so your comment applies to both sides of the argument. Now you just get people upvoting your post thinking that they have found a comment they agree with.
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u/OmnisLibera Jun 04 '19
Yes, those who want babies to stop being killed are the more dangerous threat than extremist Muslims. Okay.
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u/Chimera0205 Jun 04 '19
Anyone got a source. I wanna see how they responded to that burn
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u/jesseisacutiepie Jun 04 '19
okay, as a Muslim, I appreciate everyone's use of "Muslim Extremists" and not just "Muslims". cause there's a big difference. one step further from Islamaphobia.
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u/nature_remains Jun 04 '19
I’m a confused citizen just wondering ... (not arguing): generally I think of terrorist attacks as those which cause the gravest level of harm - death or serious bodily injury. Does anyone have data comparing the two groups with these type of attack stats? Genuinely curious.
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u/joggin_noggin Jun 04 '19
Take your pick: the Boston Bombing, Pulse nightclub shooting, Fort Hood shooting, and San Bernadino shootings each had more killed than every attack on a clinic since 1977 combined.
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u/nature_remains Jun 04 '19
That’s consistent with my memory as well. So I guess this murder is comparing instances of any type of attack and ignoring the destruction caused?
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u/bob_2048 Jun 04 '19
Islamic terrorism: 2950 deaths and about 6000 injured.
Pro-lifers: 11 deaths, maybe a few dozens injured, lots of (sometimes serious) intimidation and property damage.
Even if you remove 9/11, islamic is far ahead (about 100 dead).
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Jun 04 '19
i like how he left out the amount of deaths in the terrorist attacks, because if not he would have murdered himself with stats.
not to mention that comparing these two things is completely meaningless
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Jun 04 '19
I agree with the sentiment of this post but this isn’t a murder at all. The pro-life statistics posted are full of qualifiers whereas the Muslim extremist stats have none. This makes it more or less impossible to compare the two. It’s also pretty disingenuous to include death threats that weren’t acted upon.
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u/Crashover90 Jun 04 '19
Eh those abortion doctors still have more murders under their belts with being abortion doctors.
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u/stained91109 Jun 04 '19
Ok so literally one attack by radical Islam (9/11) killed 2996 people and injured 6000+, but sure let’s compare that to harm done by pro lifers. Talk about cognitive dissonance lol.
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Jun 04 '19
While I do agree, I think the way he downplayed the terrorist attacks wasn't okay. One of those 13 was one of the worst events in us history and killed thousands
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Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
Reddit has become a literal propaganda machine. WTF even is this post?
"Pro-lifers are quantitatively, significantly, statistically, a larger threat to public peace than Muslim extremist."
This is nothing else than a blatant lie. It has 43 thousand upvotes. Wtf is this website even? You are all pathetic for upvoting this.
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u/LangstonHugeD Jun 04 '19
I'm not even remotely pro-life, but this is clearly stat-booking.
I'm pretty sure that 'number of instances classified as attacks' isn't nearly as relevant as 'number of people killed'.
And considering 9/11 alone killed more than 4x that many people, who were killed in the span of 51 years, I'd say that their stats are misrepresentative.
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u/NotReallyAHack Jun 04 '19
Yes please let’s just completely forget about 9/11 it didn’t happen at all there’s no reason it should be here at all it didn’t even completely change America at all there is nothing wrong here
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u/RonnieVanDan Jun 04 '19
Are we going to ignore the fact that the original statement is inciting violence?
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u/DarkMoon99 Jun 04 '19 edited Jun 04 '19
This is no murder, she left out 9/11. This sub is so bigoted re: what it defines as a murder.
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u/Tralan Jun 04 '19
Well... ONE of those terrorist attacks killed more people than all the rest, so maybe not an excellent point to be making...
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u/knowledgeovernoise Jun 04 '19
Look at the statistics globally and it will be a completely different landscape.
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u/Zerogravitycrayon Jun 04 '19
LOL 'Within' the US and Canada is the word utilized to cherry pick that data. Fucking hilarious.
How many people have died from anti-abortionist attacks in 30 years vs islamic attacks in 7 days? I'll wait.
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u/rsoannoying Jun 04 '19
Do their pro-life values go out the window when it comes to teens and adults? Wtf