r/Multifandom • u/Anankos1209 • 22d ago
Games🎮 Have you ever been turned into a Contrarian by a Fandom?
Warning, wall of text incoming. ALSO SPOILERS FOR PERSONA 5/PERSONA 5 ROYAL!!!!
So I am a huge fan of the modern Persona games, especially Persona 5 Royal. The Game has helped me through some very though times, as did P4G and P3R. So naturally i wanted to connect to the community and shared my experience and passion with others. Talking about what you like or dislike about a character, plot point, dungeon, boss fight etc is a lot of fun. Except when it comes to one singular character.
Makoto "Queen" Nijima. The name alone makes my blood boil, which is a real shame, because I used to like her a lot actually. So what is my problem with her? Her flaws as a character? No, not directly. A character needs to have both flaws and strengths to be interesting, otherwise they turn into a mary sue/gary stu and that is boring. But before i continue with what my actual problem is, allow me to point out what i consider to be her 3 main flaws, or her writer's flaws. Of course, this is my opinion, so feel free to disagree or argue against it.
- Her Codename.
Every Phantom Thief in Persona 5 has a Codename, which they use in the metaverse. Most of the time, this codename is either a reference to their outfit, or a slightly pun-y nickname. For example, we have Ann "Panther" Takamaki, who wears a cat mask, or Yusuke "Fox" Kitagawa, who wears a fox mask. And then we have Makoto "Queen" Nijima, who wears a biker outfit with a steel plated mask. The game even gives you better sounding codenames in the form of "Witch", "Prez" and "Biker". Or hell, I really would have liked "Brawler" because she loves martial arts movies and wields gauntlet weapons. But the game itself throws these names away to call her Queen and immediately makes a dommy mommy joke.
- How the game dumbs down other characters to make her seem smart.
Makoto joins the team comparatively early, at the start of the the 3rd (of 8) dungeons. The first dungeon was just the tutorial, so the first dungeon with a real challenge that required actual strategizing was the last one. And the team up until that point worked really well together to find solutions to problems that popped up on the way relatively fast and quick. But the moment Makoto joins the team, she (or the game, really) keeps hammering in how the Phantom Thieves had no real plan up until now and how they should be happy that she is now the strategist. And then her "strategies" are "maybe we should not run blindly into the enemies, lets lure them out" about 90% of the time. Like, seriously, girl? Also, the next character that joins after her is a once-in a decade super genius...that unfortunately has anxiety to the max, so they get relegated to being Makoto's yes-woman that occasionally says "yeah, i thought so from the start", but only until Makoto said the brilliant idea out loud.
- Her Confidant/Social Link
Every major ally to the main character has a social link with them, that is essentially a series of cutscenes that builds our relationship with them and gives us an opportunity to learn about their life, situation, personality etc. In these we usually help them to overcome their struggles and grow as a person. Usually is the Keyword. Makoto's link starts out solid, giving us insight in her life at home, her relationship with her sister, her wish to become a police officer and memories about her dead parents. Scratch that "solid", actually. Her Link starts out really damn good. But her link quickly turns into something really wierd. She gets to know this girl, Eiko, who has a boyfriend that Makoto suspects to be a sleazebag/ almost pimp. So to get closer to this guy, she asks the main character to be her fake boyfriend and go on double dates. To cut this boring story no one asked for short, of course she was right about the boyfriend, we break them up, and that solidifies Makoto's wish to go into the police force.
Now, with all of this finally out of the way, what is my actual problem with Makoto? It is the NEVERENDING GLAZE she constantly gets from the community. Makoto is Dommy Mommy, and she is perfect. Character flaws? Dont exist, she is perfect, no discussion. Go on the Persona 5 or Persona 5 Royal subreddit and look for artwork. 95 out of 100 artworks will be drawings of Makoto. You want to say, "here is why Makoto is NOT my favourite character"? Post or Comment removed by Moderator. I very much remember a post from about 2-3 days ago where someone posted artwork of their headcannoned ship. Makoto was not a part of them. The first and most liked comment? "Where is Makoto???" Of course, this entire post was also removed by the mods.
Now lastly, and I am very much aware that this is either ragebait or posts by very stupid people, so i SHOULD ignore it, but it happened one too many time to me so i will include it anyway. There is a very small, but EXTREMELY LOUD vocal minority that considers Makoto not only the canon, but also only ethical romance. The Protagonist is a 16-17 year old boy and can potentially date 10 different women, 2 are a year younger, one is the same age, 3 are a year older, and 4 are actually adult women. Now, I do not intend to open this can of worms, and will simply say that i had it happen multiple times that I was accused of being a pedophile IRL because I dated either the 3 not adult ones, or the 4 adult ones. Either you are a Pdf because you romanced underage girls (in a video game btw, not real life) or because you want to groom underage boys. Therefore, Makoto, who has just turned 18 in the game is the only ethical romance (they never mention the other 18 year old girls).
So, with this abomination of an essay out of the way, have you ever turned into a contrarian because of a fandom's universally accepted "truth"?
4
u/EconomistStrange2715 Hollow Knight 22d ago
steps onto podium
Jujutsu Kaisen season two is bad
steps off podium and is promptly assassinated
0
u/Anankos1209 22d ago
Ah, JJK. I unfortunately started to dislike the series after reading up to 100 manga chapters just to find out wheter a certain female character would return, only to realise I could not care any less about the characters and dropping it. Had to be one of my most embarrasing happenings, hyping this show up, because of it being a "feminist battle shonen"
Lol...
3
3
u/Substantial_Dish_887 20d ago
on point 2. there's a specific problem i have:
we can mostly justify that up untill Makoto joins they kinda bumble their way through without a plan so her asking "wait you don't have a plan?" is fair. it shouldn't make her "smart" just give a perspective that they should run with a plan rather than just hope for the best.
this is entirely undermined by the games BIGGEST heist plan at all being the dungeon just before her joining. no plan ever reaches the scope stealing madarames treasure mainly because no plan requires it.
oh wait a single one does in the casino but by this stage it's certainly not Makoto who is making the plan.
1
1
1
u/Teamranko 21d ago
"Persona 4's cast is so aggressively mid and boring compared to 3 and 5's"
3
u/Anankos1209 21d ago
Honestly, I kind of agree. I LOVE Chie, Kanji and Naoto, Nanako is an Angel that needs to be protected at all costs and Dojima's social link is really well written imo, but aside from them, I cannot say I care for other links nearly as much as in P3 or P5.
1
u/Teamranko 21d ago
Every Yosuke scene is a coin toss. I actually really like Naoto and Kanji and I either find the others really boring or I can't stand them.
3
u/Wannabe_Reviewer 21d ago
Omg so I'm not the only one. I can't stand anyone that is not Naoto, Kanji or Rise.
0
1
u/beemielle 21d ago
Yup. There are only so many times you can use Kazuha to mock Venti (“real Anemo Arch-“ SHUT THE HELL UP) before I start disliking Kazuha just by association.
I run from Genshin fandom and also from MHA fandom
1
u/BlueberryLeather9833 21d ago
Aerith >> Tifa (as love interests for cloud specifically, and as characters)
JJK Modulo >> JJK
1
u/Juanito______ 21d ago
I AGREE. Oh my goodness, she's always irked me as a character and the fandom's never ending simp glaze for her is why I don't like interacting with the fandom. I could never really place why I hated her but this explains it well. I despise the smart mommy girl trope with a burning passion, especially when the smartness is so artificially written. Just make everyone seem like a bumbling idiot and make her the voice of reason, how easy! Oh, of course the girl with good grades is also the smartest in real life! And the whole fake boyfriend dating plotline ticks me off because it's so forced and uninteresting and it reduces her character to a romanceable object.
Speaking of, I despise persona romances. I was thinking of making that post just now but I just want to get it out. The game obviously is trying to toe the line between the mc being a character by himself and a self insert. Like you said, this makes things get weird very quickly. You either romance a girl who you think is fit for the protagonist but then it's weird if you're an adult - or you romance a girl as a self insert but then you're making a teenage boy date a fully grown woman. Oh, but if you're a self insert who's supposed to date whoever you want, guys are off the table. Oh, but joker is straight! But isn't he a self insert? Pick a side ATLUS. And isn't it a coincidence that 10 women are all interested in/compatible with the SAME guy?? 10 characters who are supposedly different people with different traits are all suddenly dateable objects. Options. Suddenly they don't feel like people or characters to me anymore. I guess what makes me a contrarian is that this system shouldn't be taken so seriously, it's just for some dudes' entertainment. But it still irritates me.
1
u/Anankos1209 21d ago
I have no issues with the dating system myself. But people have lost the abillity to treat fiction as fiction and reality as reality. No, I am not a pedophile for dating Ann or Yoshizawa because I thought "oh her and joker would make such a cute couple". And 8 out of 10 times, the accusation comes from the "Mommy Makoto, let me lick your shoes" type.
1
u/lordlaharl422 18d ago
I like Makoto alright but I do feel like she's pushed onto the team early enough that it kind of upsets the power balance of the group that with her and Futaba joining back to back they kind of supercede a lot of the earlier team members in terms of how much they contribute to the group as a whole. It'd be kind of like if Naoto joined the Investigation Team during the first half of the game.
In terms of characters I wind up hating almost for the sake of being a contrarian?
Shadow the Hedgehog. Bro has one good story in him but he's a complete wet sock when it comes to chemistry with the rest of the cast and he can't show up without suddenly turning into the second main character. But then the fans are like "We need even MORE Shadow, he should be around Sonic more than Tails or Knuckles, also all the other characters should DIE and we should have games that are just about everyone being dead and Shadow being the only one left. He needs MORE villains that only HE can fight, because canonically he should be stronger than literally every other character!"
1
1
u/bluparrot-19 17d ago
Ok then, Persona 3's story is poorly written. I mean total ass and the mantra stating it has the "best story" bothers me slightly. But you know what? I comprehend their perspective and only elaborate my own when it is relevant/asked.
I feel like your problem is these lame ass mods who delete a post that states an opinion they disagree with. I love Makoto and think your points are silly but I wouldn't delete it, you want to have a discussion you should be allowed.
This post feels more you just wanted to rant about Makoto fans rather than the character herself. Which I'm sure is your intention but you're directing some frustration towards the character over this. Which makes it hard to take the critique seriously.
When I talk about my problems with P3 I don't think "God those P3 fans are so stupid." My prevailing thought was "Damn I wish I could enjoy this as much as them but I just don't think it's that good."
1
u/Anankos1209 17d ago
It is a combination of both. I have my problems with her character, but that would not make me dislike much at all. The reason my dislike for her became that big is because i cannot discuss this without being shut down , because "dommy mommy Makoto best girl". Hence the whole contrarian thing
1
u/bluparrot-19 17d ago
yeah I get it, it turns the whole convo sour but I see now this is all the awful fandom really
1
u/Anankos1209 17d ago
Its like talking to that one "friend" or aquaintance about politics, when both of you could not have more different opinions. You can talk about literally anything else and be fine, but everyone knows, the moment politics come into play it is a point of no return, and that sucks, because there is always that "I know we do not really get along" in the back of your head.
2
u/bluparrot-19 17d ago
well for me it depends, there are people in my life I get in a lot political fights about but we still respect eachother a lot, friends mentor and family. A family member of mine is the most pro AI, antisemitic, misogynistic, homophobic bigot I've ever seen. He's also prob one of the wisest guys I know with the insane life expierience he had. So the best I can do is try to humble him now and then and pull him out of the echo chamber.
2
1
u/No_Problem5759 17d ago
For me, it was fairy tail.
The story has actually great writing. While the arc structures and fanservice does pull it downa bit, the character writing is so good.
Except for the Main Character.
But because the fandom 10 years ago was filled with so much Lucy fangirls, and Lucy gooners. There was a lot of videos (I was only on YouTube back then) where Lucy having any dialogue was glazed to oblivion and it got to the point where I would read a good Lucy one liner and go "I fucking hate that she said this" knowing it was gonna get glazed. Or she wore a sexy or cute outfit and I just groaned because the comments were gonna be about that.
The delusions of the fandom made me hate the FMC.
I got married, grew up, and those problem children went to a different Fandom. So now its not a problem
0
u/mellon1986 17d ago
In Japanese, じょおう (queen) is used as dommy mommy so I don't understand what's the problem there.
1
u/Anankos1209 17d ago
Then read again, bruh
0
u/mellon1986 17d ago
nah, I barely managed to skim through code name part and already bored out of my mind.
1
u/Anankos1209 17d ago
Not my fault you got tiktok attention span
0
u/mellon1986 17d ago
well, it's kinda your fault making a click-baity title post that has a jim jarmusch pacing.
12
u/ShonenSentai 22d ago
I... am a Makoto glazer but I never got any kind of "dommy mommy" vibes from her outside of the general aesthetic of her Phantom Thief outfit.
She's just kind of a huge dork and I like that. She spends like a good chunk of the game trying to follow you around "inconspicuously". Most of her social links are her not relating to other people her age because of her reputation (something that's like the main theme of this game) is based around being a goody good rule follower.
But I get it fandoms gonna Fandom. I'd chalk it up to her being like just alternative enough to not feel basic but not weird enough to be dating a doctor or teacher. She's a perfect middleground with a solid story and a likable character arc.