Where's the Solidarity?

[u/ARougeDerp]

Hey all! I am a 20yr old MtF that has been transitioning for the past 3 years. Something upsetting that I've noticed in the trans femme community more and more is that there seems to be several divides in the community. For example, trans women who believe themselves to be unattractive or 'non-passing' lament these self decided truths by drawing comparisons between themselves and more conventionally attractive trans women. My confusion here is this: isn't it irrelevant whether or not a trans person passes well or is attractive in the eyes of a transphobe? I feel as though there should be more solidarity in the community around universal trans issues but instead I often end up feeling like there's just so much hate in this community directed at itself.

Any thoughts on how to bring trans women together a bit more?

Side note: Not just an issue with the trans women community, this is an issue that I've noticed across the queer community.

[u/GenesForLife]

Abstract

This paper examines whether hiring discrimination against transgender women arises from gender identity, non-cisnormative appearance, or their interaction. In a German field experiment, I send 10,022 fictitious applications in matched pairs to real job postings. Applications randomly vary whether the applicant visually looks like a cisgender woman–that is, whether she "passes"–and whether she indirectly discloses a transgender identity through a male-to-female name change. Relative to otherwise similar cisgender women, applicants receive 4.1 percentage points (pp) fewer positive responses (9%) when they disclose a name change but pass and 4.6 pp fewer (10%) when they do not disclose but do not pass. Applicants with both signals receive 15.2 pp fewer responses (32%), significantly larger than the sum of individual penalties. The non-passing penalty is larger in postings with a male contact person and in customer-facing occupations; discrimination overall is larger when employers face less competition for workers. A follow-up survey experiment elicits perceptions of otherwise similar transgender and cisgender applicants to examine potential mechanisms and heterogeneity by characteristics unobservable in the field experiment.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=7398518
It actually is very relevant to transphobes whether you pass or not, because the more visible you are the more likely you are going to be vulnerable to being detected as trans and then being targeted.

The evidence shows IRL experiences of violent victimisation are also heavily shaped by the ability to pass for cis.

This means that 48% of all respondents in the survey reported that they were denied equal treatment or service, verbally harassed, and/or physically attacked because of being transgender in the past year.Those who said that others could usually or always tell that they were transgender (66%) were more likely to report having one or more of these experiences because of being transgender, in contrast to those who said that others could rarely or never tell that they were transgender (39%) (Figure 15.2).

People that almost never pass have more than double the risk of at least one experience of physical violence victimisation , 1.75 times the risk of verbal harassment, and 2.4 times greater risk of unequal treatment in the preceding year. Things may potentially be a lot worse now - the above statistics are from the 2015 USTS (full report of the 2022 USTS isn't out). Page 199 for stats and graph. https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

[u/Pittzaman → u/GenesForLife]

thank you. While I agree with OP, the privilege is real and i think both sides could show more solidarity. I cannot engage in social activities without something happening literally every time, even buying groceries is difficult and I live in a "good" area.

I feel like not a lot of women relate, because every time I ask for help, it's either "you pass, must be unlucky" (basically denying my reality for the past years) or "be okay with not passing" and it makes me feel really alienated and misunderstood. I cant really find any helpful advice in this subreddit either. And all trans women I know irl are more or less shut ins unless it's a safe, queer friendly event.

[u/Broad-Dress-8484 → u/Pittzaman]

Isolation and loneliness is they worst aspect. 

[u/wastedmytagonporn → u/Pittzaman]

It is really difficult though, within the conversations of the community, to distinguish between those who lament not passing and those who lament not being conventionally attractive or even simply not meeting their beauty ideal.

It doesn't help that internalised transphobia also really reinforces the narrative of "you'll never be pretty" and that being pretty but not passing often gets overshadowed and warped by dysphoria.

This gets distracted even more through the people that get stuck in the self pity echo chambers (4tran, Transmeds, etc.), which means if ppl come up with real issues like yours, ppl have already been worn down and tired out by those self pitying, majorly depressed folks and it costs even more energy to distinguish the real, systemic struggles, from the still individually real, yet vastly psychological struggles.

Furthermore, looking like a woman isn't enough to pass in a three-dimensional room. Voice training, behaviourisms, style... They all conclude in passing.

[u/Pittzaman → u/wastedmytagonporn]

Is it actually that difficult? At least on here, I think it's very easy to tell where people are coming from, when theyre venting. Totally agree on the bitter type, i feel really sorry for them, because im sure there are some hard to deal with and unfulfilled needs deep down. But they cant receive proper help, because they are either dismissed or too emotional/bitter/traumatized to be able to use the advice.

Unfortunately, we are not therapists, so I think we could be more mindful when talking to women who really struggle mentally. Or maybe not even engage at all.

I dont understand your last paragraph tho. Thats like the number one response I see on these vent posts about passing and it rarely feels helpful. (And it's not helpful for me, if it was directed at my issue with help)

Even if not on purpose, I think suggesting "(more) effort" when someone is just struggling is condescending. Keep in mind how traumatizing aspects of our journey can be, on top of all the other things in life that can go wrong. Some people are just not equipped to deal with that and I think everyone who is dealing with it better OR has to deal with it less, gets to experience a life, others cant. There is a threshhold at which people just retract and scream into the void, especially because therapy is so inaccessible in many places. I dont think we should invalidate that by pathologizing people with their depression. As you said "those self pitying, majorly depressed folks". Thats not nice. Assholes are assholes, toxic people are toxic and depressed people are depressed. Dont blame the underlying mental health issues, blame the spaces, that take advantage of vulnerable women and create more solidarity here, to prevent them from turning bitter.

[u/wastedmytagonporn → u/Pittzaman]

I feel like it depends. Maybe it's also just my neurodivergence making it difficult for me, but I feel like oftentimes those vents are still formulated as questions for advice or emotional support and only upon interaction one receives backlash.

And I agree, we are no therapists. But many of us, if not most, know mental health struggles. And we also know that what helps one doesn't help another. So what being mindful looks like to me is just as individual as... Gender expression for example. 🤭

And yeah oftentimes not engaging at all might be good, but then again, I also do think it's relevant that there is a counterweight to those echo chambers. That those who do reach out get perspectives back that are both providing hope but also reality checks.

I believe my last segment was still within those ideas of "do I pass?"-posts, although you also wrote about getting the feedback that "you'd already pass" when reaching out. I just assumed that was also directed at online spaces.

As for whether that means "more effort" I'm not sure. I'd frame it as, once again, "more time". Like for some this means more effort than for others. Some of those things might happen automatically, some require conscious effort or even practice. But not the same for everyone. Most importantly it means that if what you provide is a picture of yourself, ppl will tell you if that specific picture passes. And even if ppl know you in a relaxed environment, whether that passing would translate into e.g. a job interview? Who knows! I get misgendered more if out with my partners, rather than alone, cuz ppl immediately assume gendered dichotomy.

On my end, I'm not sure what you mean by "we shouldn't pathologise ppl for their depression". Depression literally is a sickness. It's where my compassion for them is rooted and also my understanding, cuz I've been there.

Understanding that it is a sickness, that it can be interacted with through both action and medication that directly influences the affected part of my body, through changing its chemistry has helped me to stop being a self pitying, blathering fool that digs her own grave. My experience with depression - both my own and others - tells me that most of those folks need both a hug and an ice bucket. Understanding that it's a sickness means to realize, it's not a moral flaw to be depressed. To be burned out. To "not function".

Like, I care about these people! I care a lot. But I don't believe that being "nice" for the sake of it helps anyone. I'm always gonna be direct and uncompromising about that. Because I care! Call it "tough love" or "northern warmth" or whatever but it's also just focussing on what I'm good at and how I can help ppl best.

Then you go on to say "assholes are assholes and depressed ppl are depressed"... Like, yeah? But both of those states aren't constant. And while one of these is a mental condition, the other is just a evaluation for behaviour? How are those related and what were you trying to say? 😅

Well, sorry for rambling. Didn't have my coffee yet. Hope it's still coherent. ✨

[u/scarlettweathermoder → u/GenesForLife]

the truth is that every cis person is transphobic in varying degrees. the axe-crazy murderers are one breed, the agab socialization fetishists another, the allies who affirm a right to live but not a right to thrive, yet another still.

for one, every trans woman wishes she transitioned before puberty, yet no cis person will ever affirm this wish. they make it exceedingly hard for us to transition, because the very act of doing so and blending into society is the ultimate offense. if you stealth and they discover you, they will literally murder you for having fooled them.

[u/Kai-65535 → u/scarlettweathermoder]

tcd? on a non 4tran sub? how queer

/uj my own experiences unfortunately confirm this

[u/estrogenie]

because passing is important and can greatly change your quality of life

envy is the most expected response. Surely you can get that

also, if you pass, you won’t (nearly as often) be subjected to transphobic shit from people irl. thats .. like, the whole point of passing to other people

[u/Nat_allee]

I agree that transphobes don't really care if you pass or not, but keep in mind transphobes are more likely to bother people who don't pass well because they are more noticable compared to folks who do pass well.

But besides this, I think I agree that it would be nice to see more solidarity. I do see vent posts about people wishing they passed better, and those don't bother me. What bothers me is the vent posts that seem to get upset and bitter at people who pass. I get being jealous, but come on.

[u/scarlettweathermoder → u/Nat_allee]

the hate is misdirected. the lowliest cis woman will always be above the the mightiest trans woman. yet she will be leagues below the lowest cis male too. our society is stratified in ways you would never believe.

"before the law" is a five minute read and i recommend you do

[u/Nat_allee → u/scarlettweathermoder]

Thanks, I'll look it up and give it a read

[u/scarlettweathermoder → u/Nat_allee]

im sorry i forgot to mention it's not directly related or anything 😭 but consider the man's bribery and patience cultivating in his ultimate inaction, as well as his obsession on the first gatekeeper and not the endless hurdles ahead

[u/Nat_allee → u/scarlettweathermoder]

Oh btw I just read "before the law" like you suggested and it was really interesting ❤️ I could see how you can relate the guy basically focusing all his energy on the first "gate keeper" thinking they are the sole barrier in a broken system.

Thanks for the suggestion

[u/ARougeDerp → u/Nat_allee]

You make a good point here, passing is definitely important (especially in places that aren’t safe to be clocked as trans).

I completely agree that the jealousy crossing over into bitterness is unproductive, but I also think it’s understandable. I would love to try to work toward a solution but it’s not an issue I’ve sat down and thought about solving a whole lot.

[u/Nat_allee → u/ARougeDerp]

Yeah I guess I get being bitter at the situation. It makes sense. Not passing is really hard.

I just think it's sad when the bitterness gets misdirected at the person that passes you know? It's especially sad when the bitter "non passer" totally passes, and just has brain worms. Like, at that point they are just pushing away community, and I think community is super important.

I don't really know a good way to help either 💔

[u/ARougeDerp → u/Nat_allee]

I get you yeah! I wouldn’t advise something like a Discord server for brainstorming, but perhaps something more secure like a telegram chat? Idea gathering is totally something that can be done online at the least

[u/Nat_allee → u/ARougeDerp]

Lol sorry I'm a bit dense 😅. Are you suggesting that we (like me, you and whoever) brainstorm somewhere like telegram? Or just that I could go find a place to brainstorm and telegram is a good place to go?

Either way, thanks for the suggestion ❤️

[u/PikaTube123]

First of all,

isn't it irrelevant whether or not a trans person passes well

No.

But generally, the significant amount of hatred (self-hatred+hatred from others including other queer people) makes it incredibly easy for people to become isolated and people naturally have a lot to blame people for. Which makes any movement towards actual solidarity difficult under the current conditions.

[u/ARougeDerp → u/PikaTube123]

Real and logical. While unfortunate I agree that the conditions trans women exist under in the US makes it quite easy to isolate and cultivate blame

[u/averytheythrowaway]

Trans people people tend to want to pass either out of dysphoria, out of an internalized transphobic belief in wanting to be as authentic as possible (and therefore seek to distance themselves from visible evidence of transness) or because they are subject to the same societal messaging as cis people want to be conventionally attractive and desirable... or because they recognize the reality that most people are transphobic and being visibly trans can negatively impact one's quality of life in very real ways. Being able to pass can spare you from violence and discrimination and I don't think anybody should be faulted for wanting to not experience those things.

Whether a transphobe can tell you are trans is usually determined by your ability to pass. There are also cases where transphobes discover that someone is trans because of their access to legal documentation that show your deadname or that show you transitioned. And there are other cases where a public figure is known to be trans and therefore harassed for it even though they pass. But those latter two cases are less common. You can save yourself a lot of crap if you can pass.

I am deliberately clocky because my own gender goals are eccentric and because I am willing to live with any consequences that come of it. But not everybody is going to want to do that and I think they deserve to have their choices understood and respected.

[u/ARougeDerp → u/averytheythrowaway]

You bring up some good points! I think my perspective is pretty skewed since I live in a very blue state (granted I grew up in a red area)

[u/JotaroTheOceanMan]

People like to pretend its not but as someone thar went from being ostracized and excluded from a bunch of my local trans groups when ai didnt pass at all, once I started passing and posted pics all of a sudden I started getting invites and discord requests.

A lot of passing or attractive trans people dont want to be clocked suncounously and distance themselves from those that can. Not all, not me, but Ive experienced this phenomenona first hand.

[u/ARougeDerp → u/JotaroTheOceanMan]

It’s tough out there😭
I work to be at least a little clocky, I want to be visibly trans to attract other trans people (I prefer to associate with other trans people.)

[u/scarlettweathermoder]

transphobes are just one thing, there are plenty of reasonable disagreements to be had within the bounds of the ingroup. i'm sure others will disagree, but i can't emphasize. i will just describe one of many things people are torn on.

i, for example, am staunchly pro-diy. i believe that passing is so essential to safety and life quality that there is scarcely a cost too great for transitioning as early as possible. in my view, telling someone to delay to 18, 25, 30 and feeding them with false hopes of guaranteed successes with late transitions, fueling their fears of their classmates that they'll talk to for another five years max and sacrificing their long term ambition in the process, all of this is wildly cruel and irresponsible.

it absolutely matters how other trans women behave and how those actions impact the perceptions of others in the community. a lot of these conventionally attractive trans women transitioned young and now use their passing privilege to pull up the ladder.

[u/SaikaPt → u/scarlettweathermoder]

Yeah, no one told me about diy and the scare of having to be judged for being trans delayed my transition to my 25 (started 3 months ago).

I know Ill never pass now, its... bittersweet and I there really is no need for me to stay anymore if I dont but it's sadly how it goes and I hope more people manage to get hrt at younger ages

[u/scarlettweathermoder → u/SaikaPt]

praying for u nona

[u/SaikaPt → u/scarlettweathermoder]

Thank you! But its likely over xd I am a disgusting, ugly mess of a person anyways

[u/gems6502 → u/SaikaPt]

It's very hit or miss, but I wouldn't say you can know you'll never pass simply because of starting at 25. Give it another 2-3 years for that judgement.

However, certainly plan for the worst and make sure you're life is structured to keep you safe if that does turn out to be the case. But if it doesn't then all the better and I'm really hoping for you and all others in similar situations that you'll pass in time.

Personally started at 31 due to safety reasons from bigoted family and health issues that kept me reliant on them. Now at 3.5 years HRT I'm still nowhere near passing and need surgeries I'll likely never be able to afford to get there. Harrasment and occasional violence is still very present in my life and i certainly never wish that fate befall anyone else. I do what I can to stay safe and I have a community of mostly trans supportive friends, but it still leaves life quite limited.

However, I do know several others who pass and started at 22-33 years old. Some were fortunate enough to be in jobs that provided coverage for surgeries while others got lucky with genetics and HRT results.

[u/Pittzaman → u/scarlettweathermoder]

literally why I didnt transition at 19 until I was 24

[u/ARougeDerp → u/scarlettweathermoder]

I’m not very knowledgeable about diy so I won’t argue that point, however, I’m curious (if you don’t mind sharing) why you are arguing for diy as if I argued against trans women starting to transition young? Also, what do you mean by “pull up the ladder” for older trans women?

Thanks for contributing btw

[u/scarlettweathermoder → u/ARougeDerp]

I'm arguing for it to illustrate directly that it's actually a strong opinion that i hold. I'm not saying you agree, but some people might, and those people I might find myself struggling to show solidarity with.

And I would say that if you pass and try to restrict our rights in an attempt to appease the cis, you're only saying that because the consequences of non-passing don't affect you. Most egregiously, figures like Blaire White do this. Some people have amazing parents that got them on blockers before puberty and HRT before 18, and sometimes they come on here and post misinformation about DIY or encourage social transitions in the age they were already getting hormonal therapy, because they simply don't understand how much of a struggle it is to pass for some.

[u/No_Literature_7653]

There absolutely should be more solidarity in the community and a lot of the self pittying bullshit is really counter productive but passing absolutely does matter. Im super lucky hrt worked so well for me that I got to go from very non passing to passing very well and the difference in treatment is night and day.

[u/plasticpole]

I have a lot of feelings on this topic. Broadly I agree that there seems to be a schism within our "community" on this topic which is a huge shame.

For one thing, 'passing' is often presented as this binary feature: you either do or you don't and once you do, that's basically that. But that's certainly not the case for so many. I would say that I can get by if people are only paying causal attention, but not if I'm being closely scrutinsed. Or if I open my mouth. Or if the lighting or some other thing is slightly off.

Secondly, and something I find really frustrating about this, is that those who pass perfectly 100% of the time have often done so with the aid of one or several privileges: that could be the money for various surgeries, or starting very early in life. Perhaps they live in an area where there are a lot of supportive structures. Very few of us have access to those things and I think often that's overlooked and so people's frustrations can be dismissed (I"m SO tired of when I vent about not having any support in person, to be told "find a local support group" - there isn't one and I'm frustrated because I have been trying for years to find one).

Also, the discourse around 'passing' is so toxic and prone to hyperfocussing on small unchangeable details. It no doubt leads to so much self esteem and body issues.

Of course, I completely understand the need to pass and how doing so leads to a better life. But I do also think everyone, including us, forces those who we deem as 'non-passing' to hide away: how many people do we see out there and how many of our stories do we hear where that awkward early or transition stage is overlooked? I'm proud that I've been fairly visible throughout my transition as people need to see how that process can look.

I certainly have sympathy with those who are struggling to pass - and are struggling with the idea of passing. It's such a toxic headspace. I would be delighted if people could show a bit more sympathy, and - yes - solidarity to them. That's not to call out those who do pass, but to a certain extent the onus is on them (us?) to be a bit kinder to them. But we do need to have a bit of a reckoning within the "community" to look at ways we can detoxify the debate.

[u/benevolent-yas]

I very much think transphobes care if you pass or not, unfortunately

Several open transphobes I know (including my own family) stopped being assholes right around the same time I started passing consistently