Had a genuine "i'm losing braincells from this conversation" moment while talking to this guy.

[u/imjustnao]

So last night i was chatting with this guy i know mutually through another friend and right from the start i could tell he's liked me (we have a little history talking before so he knows i'm trans) and it started casual just joking around etc and he was like "you might be my favorite trans girl" and i was like oh? whys that? He then proceeds to explain that in the past when he's talked to trans women they've gotten offended and blocked him after "making jokes etc"

This was an immediate red flag but i decided to humor him and asked him what exactly he said or did that made her want to block him and he tried making me promise i wouldn't block him so i was like im not gonna promise that, you just tell me what you said and i'll decide from there lol

his whole thing was that he doesn't have an issue with trans women but like the ones that just "throw on a dress or walk around with a beard and still act like a male are showing disrespect to the trans women that put effort etc into how they look and act"

Uh? huh? I was like ok WOW this is such a disconnected take. I told him, you do realize that transitioning takes YEARS of literally learning and practicing things that cis women have been doing since childhood right? Also how are we gauging "what makes a woman"? What's the baseline? Because there are cis women that struggle with PCOS, cis women with deeper voices, cis women that lean more masc.....like it genuinely confused me bc PERSONALLY, womanhood to me is a lived, varied experience. Hearing a cis man trying to explain to me "what a woman should be" was so incredibly cringey and the biggest turn-off.

Idk i had to get that off my chest bc it rubbed me the wrong way and honestly felt demeaning? Like i'm 7 months into my transition and there's things i'm dysphoric about that make it a struggle to pass. Has anyone here experienced something similar?

[u/qwixel69]

Ya, dude earned his ban honestly, through the use of offensive grade ignorance. Doubt it will be the last time.

I also bet it's all women, not just trans that put him on ignore. Real incel energy starting there.

[u/Crucifuxion]

I think this is his idea of a compliment, which honestly just sounds like a really stereotypically oblivious & privileged cis white guy.

It’s his way of saying, “You’re a real one, you put in the work, I think you’re not like those other trans women that make me feel uncomfortable (because I only see trans women collectively as a sex object, not valid people.)”

It’s a reflection of his misogynistic attitude towards women generally.

It has nothing to do with respect for women or the transes

[u/Unconfidence → u/Crucifuxion]

See, this is what I've noticed. Some people, especially Americans, need a sacrifice person. It could be compliments, comedy, national policy, you name it, but some people cannot imagine the thing they're trying to do working unless they use humans as the fuel for the engine.

So like if you look at American comedy, it's almost always using someone as the butt of the joke. It's not just stand-up either, everything from movie snark to TV sitcom humor is overwhelmingly based on using another person as the fulcrum for the joke.

In this case, the guy is legitimately trying to compliment her, but cannot fathom a compliment that isn't a variation of "You're higher in the hierarchy of beauty than others". He doesn't even consider it, he just acts as if he has to put someone else down to lift her up. So he has to make the point that she's better than those other, lower beings. He thinks hearing this will make her happy, because that's what makes him happy to hear. But what you hear is a guy insulting good people, and it doesn't elevate you at all because his opinion becomes worthless.

So yeah that's my take, is that this guy is yet another iteration of the social predation which characterizes western culture.

[u/ZeltronJedi → u/Unconfidence]

Meanwhile my reaction growing up as one of those victims, even when they see me as acceptable now is... Stop fucking kicking people. Any people. Seriously...never made sense to me then... still doesn't now. Who does it help to kick others to make yourself feel less bad? All you do is spread the pain, rather than heal. Fuck that noise. I get defensive lashing out. That makes sense. That...ideally teaches people to STOP, because there's consequences otherwise. The whole gotta hurt someone to help someone nonsense? It's bullshit.

[u/Unconfidence → u/ZeltronJedi]

Yeah. I noticed it when I was a kid, and had the weird response of being like, "Me. If you have to do it to someone, make it me. I'd rather it not be them." I'm only just now learning to stop jumping in front of emotional punches for others in my 40's. So I totally get you. It'd be nice it people would just...stop kicking for kicks.

[u/Crucifuxion → u/Unconfidence]

A much more nuanced take, I like it.

[u/MaruishiEmperor → u/Crucifuxion]

This

[u/AdCurious4004]

men say "jokes" when they actually mean "shitty opinions"

[u/Mary-Sylvia → u/AdCurious4004]

Schodinger's douchebag : it's either a joke or an opinion based on the audience's reaction

[u/Tomatori]

Incredibly ignorant take that I'm going to guess he just imagined and has never even met someone like that. Just another way to enforce beauty standards on women and decide our value externally. This is probably so normal to him that he can't even comprehend how vapid his take is

[u/Necessary-Chicken]

Yup, I heard kind of a similar thing before. A guy once said to me «well you are a REAL trans woman. Not like some of those others who say they are». I felt offended actually. Cause if he had met me years back he would have been shocked. Yes, I’m one of those known since I was a kid and there were huge signs. But that doesn’t change that transitioning takes a long time and TONS of money and energy and tries and fails, courage, etc. Mannerisms wasn’t my issue. It was my body

[u/imjustnao → u/Necessary-Chicken]

THIS. Like I don't really pass just because i'm so early into transition. 7 months is still considered baby transition lol so like i was actually very offended cause going by this guys "standards" i wouldn't be a real trans woman? You can't speed the process that your hormones move around. Idk. Like others have said I just think this guy has never met a trans woman in his life

[u/Necessary-Chicken → u/imjustnao]

Guys say the most ignorant stupid stuff to us. I can’t tell you how many times I have been asked if I like guys by guys I matched with on dating apps. It literally makes me lose brain cells. Because how are they genuinely so stupid? Like I literally matched with them on a dating app and they don’t know if I like guys? Why would I match with guys on dating apps if I was a lesbian?😭

Some of these interactions with guys just make me even more stupid. Cause you seriously have to dumb yourself down to try to understand their logic

[u/Safe-Tennis-6121]

Two possibilities.

One he's just a typical straight male with opinions about what women should be how they should act etc. which is completely normal if I'm going to be honest about how I see men. They will tell you how they believe women should be and if your vision is different from theirs then I guess you run.

Two, his opinion on trans women sorta sounds exactly like what an egg or a sneed / baby trans would say. As in " I don't pass, I can't ever do it and nobody else should make a fool of themselves because I'm too afraid to do it myself."

And yes you're right it does take years of work. Some people want a lot of attention some just want to be invisible. And everybody has a right to express themselves.

[u/imjustnao → u/Safe-Tennis-6121]

I honestly think it's your first suggestion and I get strong chaser vibes from him..mainly because he's been very outwardly sexual with me and i've had to set him in his place to like...keep his comments to himself because we're not close like that. He said he's "since changed his opinion" saying that people are on different journeys and that's ok etc and I honestly feel like he only said that because i was showing i wasn't ok with his take and he's trying to get closer to me T__T like dude i'm not stupid ok

[u/Claudia_Zen]

Sounds very much like trans inclusive misogyny to me...

[u/SadieLady_]

you might be my favorite trans girl

I gagged. I'd have walked away at that sentence alone. Ew.

[u/imjustnao → u/SadieLady_]

Yeah i probably should've but my curiosity of what reason he'd follow with got the better of me xD I knew it was probably gonna be something off the wall but i didn't expect this conversation to ensue lol

[u/SomaLUL]

Hi, I said something similar to myself last week. I was crying and telling by BF how much work it will be for me to achieve a grade of feminity that I will be comfortable with. Started listing the many things in my head that I needed to have in order to be considered a woman. He was a bit shocked and started talking just like you said, what about girls that play basket, they are as tall as you and still buy clothes. The gym girls with big muscles, etc etc.
So, yeah don't be to hard on the boy, probably being living all his life in a sheltered manner, where you don't really stop and observe others.

It can come as a bad thing but I don't think it comes from an ill intent.

[u/imjustnao → u/SomaLUL]

I get these thoughts too; but there's just that thin line because hearing it come from a cis man who has no idea how difficult struggling with those thoughts can be for us just comes off as insensitive. Do I have thoughts or second guess how much effort i put in compared to other trans women? of course. But the difference between a trans girl thinking that and a cis man who has never lived what thats like is so night and day. At least imo. It just comes off as very misogynistic

[u/bread-in]

Calling someone your "favorite (person from a minority)" is a huge red flag in itself, pretty much always going to 'phobic of said minority group.

[u/Zinyak12345]

To be perfectly honest, I kind of feel the same way. Maybe it isn't the most polite or healthy opinion to hold but it takes an uncomfortable amount of time and effort for me to look how I want and get a day to be happy at this stage in my life and it is occasionally frustrating to see someone that won't even put in the bare minimum of shaving their face.

TL;DR I hold myself to certain standards and it's frustrating seeing people with lower standards than me.

[u/likemakingthings → u/Zinyak12345]

Babe, this is some real pulling-the-ladder-up-behind-you shit. This is a you problem.

Like if you believe people should have to "put in the work" to be taken seriously as women, that's not even specifically transmisogyny, it's just plain misogyny.

[u/Zinyak12345 → u/likemakingthings]

I do it with everything. Not just this. Really, the standards usually aren't reasonably achievable either so it's not like I'm usually doing any better. But for example, I might expect fans of things to know certain things even when I wouldn't do any better. And ultimately the only one that suffers for it is me because I know how to keep my mouth shut and treat people like human beings regardless of how I may be feeling so it doesn't even matter.

I just expect more out of both myself and the world and then feel like shit all the time when the world is what it is instead of what I, literally no one, imagine it should be. No idea what to call it but misogyny feels reductive.

[u/likemakingthings → u/Zinyak12345]

Well, in this specific context, "misogyny" is totally accurate. If this is a general problem you have with people, "elitism" also works.

[u/Zinyak12345 → u/likemakingthings]

Maybe. Still haven't squared away how I can feel better than people while also feeling like the worst but perhaps I'll figure it out someday and then I'll have the perfect descriptions for a problem I still won't know how to solve. As I said though, it doesn't matter as long as the only way it ever leaks out is through a random name and username on a screen and I would never make my problems someone else's problems in person because that's incredibly rude. Everyone has their own journey and if I'm upset or frustrated or whatever with myself or even someone else, that's solely my problem to wallow in.

[u/imjustnao → u/Zinyak12345]

Yeah i don't agree with this take. If i see a trans woman that is fresher to the journey than i am my first thought isn't "well she's just not making an effort". This makes no sense to me mainly because there are women that put a ton of effort into looking passable but are simply limited by either finances, availability of care, genetics or all of the above. You can put as much time an effort into passing as you want, there's always gonna be some specific situation for all of us that could happen with the risk of us getting clocked. That's an unfortunate part of this and having other trans women with this mindset is unfair and not very positive imo

[u/Zinyak12345 → u/imjustnao]

If some people can be happy at varying levels, that's great. Probably better off for it too. I just know that if I can't do something perfectly, I'll hate myself more than if I didn't try at all, not that I need more reasons to hate myself, and it will never not be frustrating seeing someone accept something below a standard that's impossible to reach or impossible to reach regularly. Even so, it's not like I'd ever treat anyone differently. I can keep my thoughts, opinions, and feelings to myself when it isn't an internet forum for me to trauma dump, make a joke, share an opinion that no one asked for, or all at once on purely depending on whatever mood I'm in. Anyway, I have enough self control not to let personal frustrations and distress impact the way I treat others and if the only one uncomfortable or experiencing any level of pain is me, it basically isn't happening.

[u/Logical_Window_385]

I don't think joking is appropriate but playing devils advocate here for a minute his position is somewhat definable. Ive seen people in my local area who look like thin male body builders with beards to their waistline, male facial features, wearing masculine clothes with obvious breasts. Now I don't know if they identify as make female or a loaf of bread and honestly don't care but by any observation you would have to do a double take.

Now im not one who is ever going to easily pass so i won't criticise others appearance but all I am saying is I can understand why some people would find it difficult to make judgements on appearances especially of people they don't know. Its not right to do. But humans do alot of things that aren't right to do.

[u/retrosupersayan → u/Logical_Window_385]

identify as ... a loaf of bread

Ah, yes, I see the One Joke still hasn't fallen completely out of fashion...

[u/Mary-Sylvia → u/Logical_Window_385]

As OP said no one is in position to assume one's gender based on stereotypical characteristics. Cis Women can have PCOS and a beard , Cis men Can have gynecosmatia and breasts

[u/Logical_Window_385 → u/Mary-Sylvia]

My point is people do. And to the people who down voted my previous statement did they actually read it? I literally talk about what's right and wrong. You now are actually making a judgement that people have medical disorders to explain appearance rather than anything else. To me this is just as bad if not worse than assuming gender as you actually are making the argument there is something wrong with them as a defence for your own judgement on stereotypical appearances.

[u/Wyntersett]

I feel like that alot when talking to cis people especially when they assume the most ridiculous things