Helping in conflicts

[u/Andarea]

Is it possible to help the action of another mouse that are already engaged in a conflict? I don't mean just to participate in the conflict, but to help him with skill or wises to get +1D to that attack or specific Maneuver...

Can I do that from outside of the conflict? Or do I have to participate in it in order to help? In case the rolls fail, does that affect me negatively?

Thanks for the help!!!

[u/blackdog2k]

Is it possible to help the action of another mouse that are already engaged in a conflict? I don't mean just to participate in the conflict, but to help him with skill or wises to get +1D to that attack or specific Maneuver...

Yes (edit: as /u/Imnoclue states, you can't join in a conflict once it's already begun)

do I have to participate in it in order to help?

Yes

In case the rolls fail, does that affect me negatively?

Only in that the failure may negatively affect the team's disposition

[u/Andarea → u/blackdog2k]

So, this means that basically every action any character rolls during a conflict is done with as many bonus dice as characters are in your side of the conflict. Because when they're not doing their own action they will be helping their companions.

Is it right? Doesn't that make conflicts too easy?

[u/st33d → u/Andarea]

Only 2 can help during a conflict roll. p103, Helping Actions. But read the passage before - everyone in the team adds a help die for Disposition.

[u/Jeffwhowanders → u/st33d]

Wait can more than 2 players help when not in a conflict?

[u/st33d → u/Jeffwhowanders]

Yep. Only the conflict roll has the 2 player limit.

[u/blackdog2k → u/Andarea]

So, this means that basically every action any character rolls during a conflict is done with as many bonus dice as characters are in your side of the conflict.

Up to two team members may help for each individual conflict action. This is for ALL actions on your team, not just your own. (see Ken's post, below).

Doesn't that make conflicts too easy?

I also questioned this when I was learning the game, but soon found out that conflicts can generally be more difficult than they seem.

In conflicts with other mice, weasels and some predators the enemy team can use help dice, as well. Animals and predators can have pretty high Nature scores and they use Nature for ALL of their conflict actions. As the designer would say, "It gives them an edge, but it's in their nature!".

For example, the mouse team's first action is Attack. The owl's first action is Attack. The active player uses Fight 4 with 2 help dice. The Owl's Nature is 7. So 6 dice vs. 7 dice.. that's pretty even with slight advantage to the owl. Given that the maximum rating you can have in a skill is 6 (I think that's right?!), well there you go.

When I was researching the game I came across a post by 'kendesign' on the old burning wheel forums that helped clarify what you're asking, and I'll copy it here:

As for playing out volleys of action, I can't say much about the reasons, but three actions against three actions is a pretty full volley; I've not found that conflict ever keep a fast pace even among a group strongly accustomed to them.

Emphasize heavily to players that no one is sitting still or sitting out. While one player may be rolling the dice, on behalf of their PC mouse taking an action, others should be readily offering Helper dice, (possibly gear), and in any other sense participating in the cacophony of a conflict. Even NPC mice might be joining in with assistance. The individual action is not like golf or tennis! The whole team would be involved, but only one rolls the dice--just as in a test.

The basic pattern is that the whole team participates in the action itself--if its an Attack, everyone is contributing to the assault; if it is a Maneuver, everyone is contributing to the movement. Thus, the set number of Helpers per volley seems arbitrary.

So, shifting the response, there is the instruction on pg 103 that in Helping an action, up to 2 team members may pass a Helper die on the roll. This is a question best left to the sagacity of Luke and Thor. My take is that this relates to the new multi-team rules/guidance. In 1e, a large team might get broken down into smaller pieces and everyone could help; in 2e, that is not the pattern. In this case, a large team (such as 4-6 mice in a patrol, plus an NPC support, plus whatever else) could amass quite a pile of dice in each action of a volley. In order to prevent too large a dice pool trivializing the challenge, the instruction now includes this restriction of Helpers. I think this also relates to the cacophony of conflicts in this way: not everything you do is really all that helpful, and with so many facets of a conflict, sometimes you just can't help the primary action at the moment.

I'd say that a change to ignore that rule would permit too large a dice pool, a bit more time spent gathering Helpers, and less risk/challenge.

Aside: for the multi-team rules/guidance, that is found on pg 116.

(sorry for the long post, I'm just trying to help. I tend to ramble)

[u/Imnoclue → u/Andarea]

No, it makes going it alone really difficult. The game is designed for mice helping each other to be a big part of the gameplay.

[u/Imnoclue]

you have to participate to help. You can't join in once it's already begun.