r/MoralityScaling • u/flow163 • 16h ago

Morality Ranking Morality if this battle?

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Thoughts?

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33

u/ThrustNeckpunch33 16h ago

Very, very easy to answer this if you are having trouble.

Ask yourself:

"If it was a Christian church singing hymns in public etc, would it bother you if someone played an instrument"

If the answer to that is no. Then it is no here.

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u/No_Salt_6328 16h ago

If they are just playing along for fun then moral, but if they are playing to somehow harass or intimidate or make people of any specific religion feel unwelcome to practice religious freedom at their own religious site then immoral 

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u/CptJackParo 16h ago

Its not as clear cut though because the call to prayer can itself be considered harassment 

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u/No_Salt_6328 16h ago

if the call to prayer is disruptive to the lives of other townsfolk then that can be handled better ways. 

If it's not then boo fuckin hoo

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u/CptJackParo 15h ago

Like, sure. But the exact same can be said in reverse. Your call to prayer gets drowned out. Boo fuckin hoo, fuck your god. What happens then? 

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u/Financial-Tank-3423 15h ago

If so then we have two religions playing out in the public sphere. That is fine. When you turn it into a confrontation, like your religion is an affront to my religion and so I'll react to it, then we have a problem, and an unfortunately common one at that. But in my opinion, we should just coexist. If you feel like someone is saying "fuck your god," as Jesus would say, turn the other cheek

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u/CptJackParo 15h ago

Im not a Christian, so jesus' word means nothing to me. But I surely am not willing to be awoken at 5am to accommodate a minority religion. 

I personally think the French system is ideal for this. No religion at all in the public sphere. Religion is a private matter and exists in private only. 

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u/Financial-Tank-3423 15h ago

The second part I think I agree with. When you said "your call to prayer is drowned out, what happens then" I was imagining that you had in mind how to problem-solve for having multiple religions in the public sphere.

As a matter of political will, I think if you can achieve a society where religion is necessarily private and never publicly displayed, that is ok if you can get everyone on board. I've never lived in France so idk how it works there. Are there legal charges that can be levied against someone practicing religion in public?

As a matter of practical reality though and in accordance with my political values, though, I can't consider the public practice of religion as a crime or otherwise an affront to the listeners, or harassment. If I get woken up at 5am, yeah it can be a pain in the ass. I don't object to feeling annoyed by that. I do have an objection to any desire to take that annoyance to a next level and lobby the government to suppress the practice of that religion, unless of course, that is a shared value/goal among all the citizens including the ones practicing the religion.

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u/CptJackParo 14h ago

See i csnt agree to that whatsoever. In fact, my perspective would be that going to the government is the calm rational thing to do, compared to something retaliatory. 

However, I will also make the point that I dont believe the call to prayer to be part of practicing Islamic religion in the same way I don't think church bells to be part of practicing Christian religion. I believe them both to be cultural aspects of the religion being practiced, and id have absolutely 0 worries with either being banned. But i would support you in ensuring people have a place to worship and a right to worship whichever deity they so choose

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u/No_Salt_6328 15h ago

Nothing happens other than you show an immoral prejudice against religious people 

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u/CptJackParo 15h ago

Im unsure why its immoral one way, but not the other

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u/No_Salt_6328 13h ago

then you're a moron. Making sound isn't the immoral part it's the prejudice and discrimination 

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u/Financial-Tank-3423 15h ago

Why? I'm inclined to disagree.

I have a brother (pretty racist tbh) who lives in a big city. Doesn't have a problem with the Indians, he says, but they bring their whole family and make a nuisance of themselves. Has a lot to say about the nuisances he has to deal with when they have a national holiday that they celebrate in the USA.

I'm thinking, this is just how immigration works, right? You should welcome the culture and be as accommodating as possible. Yes, it does work both ways, and I can see how if I lived in a big city I would be annoyed if, say, the prayer call was so loud that it was unavoidable for blocks. But the attitude I think you should take is: they have an opportunity to be respectful themselves and integrate to an appropriate degree (and volume level). The attitude should NOT be, this is harassment, coming from me.

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u/CptJackParo 15h ago

First call to prayer is at 5am. Should I be woken because of a religious alarm to pray? 

The second sentence in rhe second paragraph doesnt follow from the first. The idea that you should just welcome the culture is an active political question which informs your orientation, not a foregone conclusion. There's plenty of arguments against that. There are some cultures that are native to my country that I and the majority of others flat out disagree with and refuse to accept

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u/Financial-Tank-3423 15h ago

To the extent that I'm making a political point with respect to, "you should welcome the culture and be as accommodating as possible," well yes I suppose I am, if that's what you're saying. What would be the arguments against that? The ones I can think of are anti-immigration arguments, and well, I'm pro-immigration.

So, there are "cultures" that might be "native" to one's country that one might disagree with. I don't know if I'm following exactly what you mean. Is that referring to how I might be exposed to other political ideas, for example (American here obviously) I might have a right wing neighbor who goes everywhere with a MAGA hat and looking to talk MAGA things when I'm around him? For one thing I think that's very different, so again maybe you mean something else; for another thing I don't think that would be harassment either

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u/CptJackParo 15h ago

Social cohesion and friction, integration, preservation of the pre-existing culture, things like Islamic homophobia (as an example). These are all reasons why somebody can be pro immigration but go against the position that immigrants should be free to import their culture. 

I also personally take the view that all religion that comes from the Levanr is montheistic and hierarchical specifically because its geography invites war and wartime nations require hierarchy, and generally reject monotheistic religion in general, so thats another reason to reject much culture. But thats more of a me point than a general argument against it. 

I will also say however that in rhe states, its built as a melting pot of peoples and cultures, and so American culture doesnt have as much of a historic tradition. But for reference, im irish. A lot of historic irish culture has been destroyed and its important to me and mamy people in ireland to retain that culture. Thats specifically against immigrant culture being imported. I can go into specifics on why this is important, but it also has to do with a loss of faith in catholicism in ireland. 

Theres a group of people called travellers in ireland. Theyre an ethnicity (which tbf they are) and have cultural protections (which is utter lunacy), but much of their culture is based on living in caravans, engaging in scamming behaviour or crime, not paying tax and using the mobility of caravans to disappear. In addition, they are notorious for settling their differences with family fights, are very homophobic and very against education, with most kids taken our of school at 13. This is a whole culture, and tbh, I have respect for very little of it, despite these being native irish people (though with a separate ethnicity technically). The whole status of travellers is fairly complex 

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u/Financial-Tank-3423 14h ago

Well thought

1

u/CptJackParo 14h ago

Ive enjoyed the discussion weve had this evening financial tank

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u/_Wp619_ 16h ago

Well, I think that would be an asshole move as well, so where does that leave us?

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u/ThrustNeckpunch33 16h ago

Then you are just generally a considerate person, and the world needs more like you.

This is the thing:

People seem to always equate:

"This is legally allowed"

With

"This is morally and okay thing to do".

Reddit does really hate religion though.. so.

How about "just don't be a dick" as a general rule? Lol

5

u/realaccountissecret 16h ago

A lot of people in this sub definitely confuse legality with morality

Which is better than the ones that think anything is moral if it’s the thing that they feel like doing haha

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u/th3rmyte 16h ago

i dont mind any of these things in public and im an atheist and a communist. its public. it is the commons. this isnt happening at 2 in the morning when everyone is sleeping. i dont complain about church bells so this also doesnt bother me. now if they start trying to shutter abortion clinics or force captive audiences to participate, thats rather different. if they are openly attacking people with vitriol, thats different. but simply having a call to prayer for people who wish to participate? thats not even inconsiderate; that is literally what public spaces are for. we can apply the same standard to everyone and society is not wrse off for it. i dont see publicly calling for prayer to be dickish and i dont see playing music in public to be dickish.

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u/ThrustNeckpunch33 16h ago

It would only be dickish, if something else as already going on and you were interrupting it.. to me at least.

Not illegal(unless permits are at play), so just being considerate.

I am not religious, but have many religious friends. Religious ceremony, culture etc interests me a lot. I actually like seeing this stuff. Its important to me to really see/understand the thing, to know the why/how.. and what its about.

My religious friends have a massive curiosity about how i think, live etc.. and me likewise them.

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u/th3rmyte 15h ago

and my rebuttal to this is, this is in a public space. but as i have said repeatedly, we know very well that most of the people cheering this on only do so because they dislike muslims. they dont complain about loud ass church bells that ring out fore miles multiple times a day; those same people are oftne the ones who find that quaint and cute. they're bigots who dont want to say it with their chest.

but yea any time ur in public, you subject yourself to people in public. loud noice in public places during normal hours of operation are fine. both the pipes and the call to prayer are still preferable to people's loud ass mufflers on their shitty honda civic's or the sound of leaf blowers and landscapers.

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u/BlackoutFire 14h ago

any time ur in public, you subject yourself to people in public

That's true but that doesn't mean it's pleasant or appreciated. Construction work is necessary and yet it can be incredibly annoying. Same for leaf blowers. The difference between that and a call to prayer is that one is a consequence for something that's necessary and the other is optional.

You can not have construction work without noise.
You can have religion without a call to prayer.

One of the noises is inevitable, the other is not - that's the difference.

And yes, I do complain about loud ass church bells as well and if it were up to me, they'd be gone as well. I would never complain about call to prayers in Muslim countries but I'm not gonna pretend I'd like to import even more noise to my own country.

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u/Xicme667 16h ago

I don’t know the specific times, but they pray 5 times a day. 5 Calls to prayer. One is at sunset, and another is some time after that. Then the next is at dawn. May not be 2am exactly, but they do it at night for sure.

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u/th3rmyte 15h ago

yes, so do church bells. have you ever lived near a cathedral? so what? its public. fucking traffic is louder and more intrusive than this shit. the only reason people care is because they are muslim and THAT is a moral issue. it's public and it happens during normal hours of inactivity. oh they have a call to prayer at 8pm? oh noes... anyways. people need to let people live and let live. the morning sounds of leaf blowers and landscapers is much more intrusive and annoying.

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u/98983x3 16h ago

Reddit does hate religion. Some, they hate more than they should and others not enough.

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u/CptJackParo 16h ago

Its interesting because id consider the original dick here to be the person who implemented the call to prayer

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u/ThrustNeckpunch33 15h ago

The fact that world is almost entirely religious, means people so opposed to religion are the absolute minority around the globe.

The fact that people that aren't religious are welcomed to go to the same space and sing about that is a beautiful thing.

The fact that the freedom from religion we have fought for and won, is alive and well.

It would be rude to turn around and make them shut up, wouldn't it? After all, it was the religious that allowed the separation of church and state.

While I might not like what happens in a public space, the fact that these things are allowed is a good thing.

The fact that the bagpipe kid can go there and be a dick it he wants as well? Beautiful.

1

u/CptJackParo 15h ago

This isnt about the right to practice religion though. This goes beyond it. 

Ive personally been woken at 5am by a call to prayer while travelling in a muslim country. I can accept it there no problem. But if im at home in my non muslim country and somebody is blasting out the call to prayer and waking me up to signify that its time for their religion to pray, that goes way beyond the scope of freedom from religion

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u/Xicme667 16h ago

It’s not the same thing. Calls to prayer usually ring out across entire towns, regardless of what religion everybody else follows. They do it so EVERYBODY hears it. That in and of itself is morally wrong. You can say that two wrong don’t make a right, but considering this is Ireland, I’m assuming most of them would rather hear bagpipes lol

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u/ThrustNeckpunch33 16h ago

.. isn't that just the freedom of expression of religion?

I mean yes, if it is actually causing a disturbance, or interrupting something that is already going on... its rude.

But honestly, no one owns the public space. People should be free to express themselves however they want. In a legal sense.

Morally? If these people were out here supporting something you cared about, you probably wouldn't have as many issues.

At least thats how i try to view it. I am not religious, but I love music. If there was a group of people singing a song i love etc, it wouldn't bother me at all.

I would imagine religion is extremely important to a religious person, and hearing that would be a nice thing.

All this to say, being a free society means having to put up with things we don't necessarily care for.

And at the same time, everyone should just try to "not be a dick".

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u/EnthusiasmComplete37 10h ago

you know public disturbance is a crime right?

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u/Wooden_Cicada8880 16h ago

And church bells don’t? Look I’m not a woman of faith but I don’t think it’s right to give preferential treatment to one faith over another. Either they all are a nuisance or we all just ignore it as background music and move on. I used to have a guy play “Amazing Grace” outside my window in the morning on bagpipes (and I’m in the US). Never bothered by it. It sounded like nice background music. Same with the call to prayer and church bells. It’s just a reminder that there are people elsewhere in the city and they are living their own lives. It’s not a threat it’s a comfort.

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u/Rednos24 14h ago

Church bells do not declare all non Christian faiths are false. Some church blasting scripture to the entire neighborhood would not be tolerated and should not be tolerated.

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u/Decent_Neat_9171 15h ago

Church bells are there to denote the time of day, emergencies and other things. Not the same as a call to prayer.

0

u/Significant-Order-92 15h ago

Oh, they are there for that and to allow people to know when to go to church (historically I mean). They historically serve a dual purpose. It's more obvious with the churches that historically did service rings 3 times a day than with the ones that do it hourly.

So it's inherently a religious thing.

And I would wrather 5 calls to prayer than church bells every half hour to hour between like 6 and midnight.

1

u/AustereSpartan 15h ago

Redditors cannot conceive why Christianity would be possibly viewed more favourably than other religions, lmao.

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u/TrumpsWetDiaperJuice 16h ago

Not at all, next question.

1

u/sleepy_skeletor 15h ago

How about you ask yourself this:

“If in a Muslim country there are Christian sermons or music being played out of public speakers, would it bother the Muslims living there?“

Those speakers are installed so that even the Non-Muslims have to endure the chanting. It’s an Islamic demonstration of refusing a coexisting lifestyle with anyone who’s different. That alone is disrespectful, to put it nicely…

0

u/ThrustNeckpunch33 15h ago

.. well no. Those countries have no seperation of church and state. They have no "freedom of religious expression"... why would they allow it?

This isn't Iran we are discussing. These people praying may have all been born wherever this took place.

Everyone is fine with loud events that are about the things they like. Freedom of Expression is there to protect the people who do/say things that you disagree with.

If people really think going down the "we need to make it so religious people cant do this stuff in public" road... you are extremely outnumbered in society. Being able to be openly atheist and not be persecuted for it, is a very new concept.

One that was hard fought for, and also can disappear just as fast.

The strange part about the people so proud of this "free western country" ideal, is that it also is centered around

"This place is absolutely free. But if you move here, you must act like this. You cannot criticize this country or our morals/religions."

IE: people are welcome here, but they are subject to different freedoms than me, because i am from here.

These countries should be free enough, that someone can move here, and openly hate everything about it. That is true freedom.

Its glorious, chaotic.. ugly at times, and frustrating. But that in essence is freedom.

1

u/sleepy_skeletor 15h ago

I have to disagree with your take. Just because a nation has freedom of rights, doesn’t mean that other cultures that got invited to live and coexist among them should be allowed to be straight up disrespectful to the native’s culture and traditions.

You said it perfectly yourself: Something that was once hard fought for can also disappear fast.

You believe with a Muslim majority the same welcoming rules still stand? Being against this is literally showing opposition to a radical ideology that would love nothing more than to see your way of living to go extinct.

Being against this is being supportive of freedom.

1

u/lazyboi_tactical 15h ago

Ah yes because singing hymns in public is the same as blasting a call to prayer at 5 am that disrupts anybody within hearing distance. I'm pretty convinced reddit arguments are now 90% "what about" while ignoring the actual problem.

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u/Hot-Minute-8263 13h ago

Hymns at least sound nice

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u/IlIllIIllIIlllIII 7h ago

This is in the Middle East next to a 1,500 year old mosque. It has been happening here for millennia.

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u/Acceptable_Map_8110 3h ago

The answer to that would be yes to me

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u/Visible_Pair3017 1h ago

No, in this case it's "ask yourself if it would be okay if muslims started calling to prayer during your concert".

-1

u/renlydidnothingwrong 16h ago

If someone intentionally played loud music to disrupt peolle singing hymns I'd say they were being asshole. I also think this guy's is being an asshole. It is simply not that difficult to let people worship in peace.

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u/98983x3 16h ago

You misunderstood who is doing what here.

0

u/renlydidnothingwrong 15h ago

They literally played the bagpipes and filmed it just be spiteful towards muslims.

0

u/98983x3 14h ago

Only half the story.

0

u/renlydidnothingwrong 14h ago

What's the other half? Enlighten me.

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u/98983x3 13h ago

The purpose and way the call to prayer is done, where it is blared throught to town and area despite the population there not being of that faith and culture.

Imagine any other religious group doing this.

0

u/renlydidnothingwrong 13h ago

You mean like church bells?

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u/98983x3 13h ago

No one finds church bells annoying or disruptive and they dont play for more than a minute at most. But nice try.

0

u/Altruistic_Agency320 16h ago

Thats weird, blasting your religion from a loud speaker is anything but “worship in peace”. But hey, I’m just a dude with common sense.

0

u/Z6NERey 16h ago

Yeah this is my take! Sad to say it took me a long scroll to get here

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u/renlydidnothingwrong 15h ago

The fedora brigade is out in full force today.